Season 4, Episode 11: Coping with uncertainty in an overwhelming world
The world can feel overwhelming right now. Between constant news updates, political tension, financial stress, and social media, many people are carrying anxiety, exhaustion, and uncertainty.
In this episode of Living Fully, we talk to counsellor Krystal Blacklock about the mental health impact of living in a constantly connected world. We explore why so many people are feeling powerless right now, and how connection, joy, and moments of awe can help us feel more grounded.
This episode also touches on navigating divided opinions in relationships, protecting your mental well-being while staying informed, and finding meaningful ways to cope during uncertain times.
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Katherine Hurtig:
Welcome to Living Fully. Each episode is a chance to talk about mental health in a way that's simple, honest, and helpful. We'll share stories, tips, and tools to help you feel supported and feel your best. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
It’s hard to escape the heaviness of the world right now. Whether it’s economic uncertainty, political tension, climate anxiety, or the constant stream of difficult news on our phones, many people are carrying a sense of stress and emotional exhaustion. And while staying informed can feel important, sometimes it also leaves us feeling powerless, anxious, or disconnected. Today’s conversation is all about navigating that tension.
I’m joined by counsellor, Krystal Blacklock, to talk about how constant exposure to difficult news impacts our mental health, why connection matters so much during uncertain times, and how we can create moments of meaning and hope, even when life feels overwhelming.
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Krystal Blacklock, thank you for being here today.
Krystal Blacklock:
It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Katherine Hurtig:
So, it's been a little while since you've been on the podcast. Tell our listeners a bit about yourself.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, so I'm a counsellor here at Calgary Counselling Centre and with Counselling Alberta. And yeah, I have a master's in social work, and I really enjoy being here.
Katherine Hurtig:
Amazing. How long have you been with us?
Krystal Blacklock:
I've been here for two years, and I was a student before that.
Katherine Hurtig:
Excellent.
Krystal Blacklock:
So, I've been with the organization for almost three.
Katherine Hurtig:
Well, Krystal, I'm really, I don't want to use the word excited, but I was really looking forward to this talk with you. It's definitely very timely. You know, there's a lot going on in the world right now. We're all, we're constantly exposed to things like war, and political division, and economic uncertainty, climate change, all these big, scary things. And there's, you know, stressors closer to home. You know, local issues, political decisions that can feel really personal. So, I mean, that's a lot to process.
Krystal Blacklock:
It is a lot.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And I mean, I'm not exempt from it. I feel that myself.
Katherine Hurtig:
No, for sure.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
I mean, from your perspective, how's that showing up for people? What are you noticing in your clients in terms of how all of this is impacting people?
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's really interesting the different ways it shows up, like in the therapy room, for example. And I think it kind of is compounding on different layers of everything you mentioned. You know, there's the really practical side. Financially, people are facing higher gas prices, inflation in groceries, all of those things, which naturally just puts an added layer of stress on people. So, people are dealing with whatever else they've got going on. Plus, let's add some more financial stress.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And then I think in our current landscape, and I'm sure we'll talk more about this, but, you know, humanity has gone through periods like this so many different times. Like, this isn't really new to our generation or this time in history. But what is new is the way that we get that information through social media, and the expectations, and the context that we're living in technologically.
Katherine Hurtig:
For sure.
Krystal Blacklock:
And I think that that, we know that that has mental health implications regardless. So, then you add that on top of the content, and all of the heaviness of the wars, and the economic uncertainty, and the felt reality of financial difficulty or tension in relationships, and it just all compounds on each other.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, I'm sure we're going to talk about this more. But yeah, like you were saying, with social media and, you know, how we consume news, I think there's this pressure or this obligation to stay informed and up to date. But I don't think we're built to, or like... I don't think we're supposed to see all we're seeing and to consume as much of what's going on around it. We're not supposed to know all of this, it's too much.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally. I mean, I think of like World War II, for example. What a tumultuous time and a scary time for people. But right now, we see, you know, you see pictures of kids in Gaza. You see just... you're always getting this like very visual, very emotional kind of on the ground input all the time if you want.
Katherine Hurtig:
Oh, yeah. It could be nonstop.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally.
Katherine Hurtig:
You could see hours and hours of footage.
Krystal Blacklock:
Absolutely.
Katherine Hurtig:
You could read every article, yeah. It's too accessible.
Krystal Blacklock:
A hundred percent.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. And I think it's interesting because the idea of staying informed is kind of like held up as this moral obligation almost.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Like, we're supposed to be informed, but then there's not really clarity around what that even means. What are you supposed to be informed about? How do you know when you're informed enough? Like, does just scrolling and seeing all these really difficult images, and getting this really disturbing information, is that in itself actually being informed?
Katherine Hurtig:
And is it that, yeah, and is that beneficial?
Krystal Blacklock:
And is that beneficial? Yeah, absolutely.
Katherine Hurtig:
It's like, ‘OK, so I know this thing. It's making me worried and fearful. Well, now what?’
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally. Right, what does that information actually do for us? Or how does that information move us forward into making a difference?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Or feeling like we're able to respond better to the world. I don't think that that's generally how people are feeling, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
And, I mean, are you seeing this with your clients? Like, I'm thinking what is so uncomfortable, upsetting, difficult about all this, is that so much of it is completely out of our control.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Like all those things we listed, and you're talking about financial uncertainty. Like, no matter how much I want to, I can't control the gas prices.
Krystal Blacklock:
A hundred percent.
Katherine Hurtig:
And, you know, what's going on around the world and, you know, what political parties are in power, and things like that. No control.
Krystal Blacklock:
No, not at all.
Katherine Hurtig:
And that's frustrating and scary.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. And so, you're getting all of this information and there's... you have no agency. Like none of us, or we feel like we don't have any agency.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. And then when you're powerless and you don't have control, that just breeds anxiety and it immobilizes people. How are we even supposed to move forward? How do we even generate hope if we're powerless in the face of this massive wall of hopeless messaging?
Katherine Hurtig:
Is that what you're seeing the most of? I mean, feelings of anxiety, anger, depression? What else are people feeling around this?
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, I would say anxiety and depression seem to be two of the most common things that we're seeing. And, you know, anxiety and uncertainty go hand in hand.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And when we have no way of creating a sense of certainty, it’s really hard to move forward.
Katherine Hurtig:
How does this constant exposure, being always informed, constantly getting all this bad news, how does that impact our mental health over time?
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, I think the exposure to bad news all the time and that sense of powerlessness means that people don't feel like they're able to make a meaningful difference. And we know that having a purpose, having a sense of agency, having a sense of being able to move forward is really, really beneficial to people in general. But when we're exposed to things that kind of suggest, you know, it doesn't matter how hard you try, it doesn't matter how good of a heart you have, or how much you might hope for something to change. If you don't have the power to do anything about it, then that's really unmotivating for people. It makes people kind of fall into this sense of like, ‘Why would I even try?’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Which then is very associated with depression and stuff like that, too.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. I was just going to say that's, I hear, yeah, the signs of depression in there.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
And Krystal, what are some signs that someone would be experiencing, or that we might see in others, some signs that we might be kind of reaching our limit emotionally, mentally with all that's going on?
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. I think something that happens for people quite easily is they'll get like, irritable. They won't want to do the things that they usually enjoy, might kind of start isolating themselves. Sleeping too much, not sleeping enough. Those things tend to be more on the depression side. And then in the anxiety world, we have things like having panic attacks or, you know, finding yourself extra reactive in ways that you're not used to.
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Krystal Blacklock:
And sometimes it's true, like other people will observe us or we might be able to see things in other people that's hard to see in ourselves.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
So, yeah, getting that feedback from other people that, you know, ‘Something seems off with you.’ Could be a sign that something's going on.
Katherine Hurtig:
So, we talked about this idea of staying informed. How do we do that, but still protect ourselves, you know, set those boundaries and limits?
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. I mean, I think like I was saying earlier, that idea of being informed is so broad. And there's no way to really successfully be informed. When are you informed enough? How do you know? That's just impossible.
Katherine Hurtig:
Oh, yeah. It feels like a full-time job.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally. And so, I think breaking that down, and the answers to this are going to be different for different people, but what do you actually want to be informed about? Or what do you hope to actually accomplish by being informed?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, like what's important to you?
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally, totally. What's important to you? If you really understood this issue, would it give you an ability to do something about it? Would it give you an ability to speak more confidently or competently about it? You know, what are the things you would hope would come out of that information for yourself? And I think giving ourselves permission to not be informed about everything.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And being really specific about even how we want to be informed, right? And investing meaningfully in getting information that's important to us. So, long form content, like reading a book or listening to a podcast. That costs us something more than just scrolling through Instagram, but we also get a sense of satisfaction from that. It's like, ‘Oh, I understand. I invested this time and energy.’ That gives us something that just scrolling doesn't give us.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
So, even the process of being informed can be a really rewarding process.
Katherine Hurtig:
And I like how you framed that. I hadn't really thought about it before, but really asking ourselves, ‘Why?’ Like, ‘Why am I wanting to be informed about this?’ You know?
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, I know that over the past few years, I feel like since COVID, I've checked out from watching news a lot because I feel like it's just all bad. And it totally impacts my mood.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally, yeah. And I know we've talked about this on this podcast before, but even the algorithms and the way that news is presented to us.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. I was going to say like having a bit of understanding around that and knowing that that's their job is to get us to interact with and stay on these platforms as long as possible.
Krystal Blacklock:
Exactly.
Katherine Hurtig:
So, yeah, the news we're seeing, the headlines, like I'm thinking it's very clickbait-y.
Krystal Blacklock:
Completely.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And eliciting a strong emotional response is going to keep you coming back for more, feel like you need to, or you have a moral responsibility to.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And that emotional reaction makes the media, the news outlets, Instagram, whatever it is, make more money from us.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. That’s...
Krystal Blacklock:
And so, yeah, it's not about us being informed.
Katherine Hurtig:
That’s depressing. Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. And I think there is a narrative as well that we kind of... there's something wrong with us, or we don't care, or we might be a bad person on a moral level if we don't make sure we're informed, whatever that means in this kind of nebulous way, generally. So, I think we kind of can find ourselves scrolling or exposing ourselves to information because we're supposed to be informed.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Or people will judge us if we're not up on everything. And so, I think that can also keep us scrolling or reading the next news article, when maybe that's not actually what we want to be doing with our time or what we really value.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, what we value and what's really healthy for us.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And what's going to create meaningful change, right? Like to have information that allows us to do something that we find valuable is, of course, a good thing. But just to be taking in information because we're supposed to.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Or because the social media platforms are good at keeping us there.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Not good for us.
Katherine Hurtig:
So, we've brought up this idea of feeling powerless, you know, helpless through all this. But that's not always the case. What are some things that people can do, like you said, to give them that feeling of agency, to give them a bit of feeling of being in control.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. I mean, this conversation is feeling very heavy, even I can feel it myself as we're talking.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And the idea of finding ways to be in control or finding ways to kind of push back against this wave of heaviness that we find ourselves surrounded by a lot. I think there's a lot of different ways we can do that. And we can get into some more specifics. But one thing that I really have liked in thinking about this topic and preparing for this podcast is the idea that, you know, we can actually choose to engage in things that bring us joy. And that in itself kind of pushes back this like wave of darkness and negativity that we find ourselves facing.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And that if we can think about that in itself as an act of resistance, I think that's a famous Audre Lorde idea.
Katherine Hurtig:
Is it?
Krystal Blacklock:
But yeah, being able to push back against that by finding things that bring us joy and giving ourselves permission to be joyful.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, I've heard that concept somewhere recently. Because, I mean, yeah, I've been thinking about all this as well. Like there's almost this feeling of guilt if you're not trying to make a change or help out in some way. But yeah, that idea of doing things that bring joy, and I've talked about this on the podcast, but I've gotten really into watercolour painting. And so...
Krystal Blacklock:
I love your watercolour painting, by the way.
Katherine Hurtig:
Thank you. Yeah, approaching it with that mindset, like creating something, stepping away from all the noise and the chaos.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
And in doing... creating meaning through art, or whatever that is for you.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
That is like you said, what was it? A form of resistance.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. I think, like we were talking about before, being inundated all the time with this information and it's so hopeless, we feel so powerless, that can really make us not interested in doing the things we want to do. It can immobilize us completely. And I think in those cases, we'd often say, ‘Well, I don't like what's happening. These people who are making these choices politically or economically, or with international wars and things like that, I don't want to be part of that.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
‘I don't want to support that.’ But they also are kind of ending up with a certain amount of power if it stops us from being able to do the things that bring us joy in our day-to-day.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And so, from a big picture kind of resistance perspective, but also just for us as individual people, you know, I think it's actually very healthy to be seeking out things that bring us joy and fighting for those things. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. When we talk about doing something about it, about making meaningful change, like that's just, it's going to look so different for everyone.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally.
Katherine Hurtig:
And not... I mean, not everyone has the capacity to protest or fight in that kind of way. So, they've got to find what purpose will work for them.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally, yeah. And I think going back to what we were talking about, about being informed. There are some people who, you know, if they can invest deeply in being informed about a particular issue, it will light a fire under them and enable them to protest, to write letters, to be a really powerful voice. And that's amazing.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And that probably is also life-giving for them. And then there are other people where, you know, that's not their skill set.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And that's totally OK. And so just because that's not the action we're taking, doesn't mean that taking a different kind of action isn’t...
Katherine Hurtig:
Isn't just as important.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, exactly. And bringing beauty and life into the world for other people.
Katherine Hurtig:
I love that.
Krystal Blacklock:
Like being able to see your painting in the front office every day, for example.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
You know, in those times where you're kind of stuck in that feeling of helplessness and it's overwhelming, what can we do? What are some small things we can do to make that all feel more manageable?
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. The first thing would be just, if you catch yourself in that place, to stop and name it, you know, ‘Wow, I feel overwhelmed.’ Or, ‘Wow, I have no idea what to do. I feel really scared right now. I feel really helpless.’
Katherine Hurtig:
And why is that important to acknowledge it?
Krystal Blacklock:
So, I heard, I think it’s from Dan Siegel, he’s a neuropsychiatrist, and he does a lot of work with kids, this phrase, name it to tame it.
Katherine Hurtig:
Oh, OK.
Krystal Blacklock:
So, once you've named the emotion.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Then you can start to manage it, or tame it, or decide how you want to interact with it. But when you don't know exactly what it is and it just is sort of there, it can kind of take over in a way.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, harder to respond to.
Krystal Blacklock:
Exactly, yeah. So, naming what you're feeling, first of all, and then you can take a few deep breaths. Sometimes that's even before you can name it. You're like, ‘Wow, I don't know what's happening.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
‘But I'm feeling a thing.’ Taking some deep breaths. Maybe take a few moments of stillness and solitude, you know, even go to the bathroom, just take a minute for yourself, take some deep breaths. Step outside, get some fresh air, those kinds of things. And then, you know, doing a small task that is within your control, right?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Washing the teacup you just used and putting it away or making your bed. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. I found, like, in times throughout my life, if I've been going through a period of anxiety, I know that I get really into cleaning.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
It's like, it feels productive, and it's something I can control, you know? It's like, I can make this spot in my house look really clean.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally.
Katherine Hurtig:
So, I've done something.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, absolutely. It was interesting as I was kind of taking notes for today, I noticed that the number of times I wrote down like, ‘Oh, clean something.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Or some other kind of household chore.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
But it's true it can be very helpful, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Well yeah, I mean, it doesn't have to be cleaning.
Krystal Blacklock:
It doesn't have to be, no.
Katherine Hurtig:
Anything that kind of grounds you, and like you said, have a feeling of control.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. And I mean, anything I think that has a tangible outcome. So, you know, if you're good at painting, taking a minute to do that, or doodling, or even skipping a rock across the river, that hasn't changed, that still happens the same way. If that's something you do. Just reminding yourself that there are things that are predictable, are within your control, you can do.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. So, Krystal, how important is it to have connection during this time, like community and, yeah, being around other people? Like, is that important during all this?
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, I think it's one of the most important antidotes to what we're facing.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
I mean, we've talked about social media. It's so divisive. It's so isolating. You're by yourself getting information.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And it creates a narrative about other people too. But it feels like we're getting connection in some way because hypothetically or theoretically there's somebody else on the other end of that.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
But we're really not connected. And as people, you know, our safety is in groups. Like being able to be together with other people, that's where we have belonging. We have other people looking out for us. We know that we're safe. And so, when we're isolated, our body, our nervous system actually reacts to everything in a bigger way.
Katherine Hurtig:
And it's, yeah, it feels better knowing you're not alone.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally.
Katherine Hurtig:
When things are scary.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, totally. Exactly. And that means we have to find ways to build real connection with people, right?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. Especially now, like you said, with social media and just being on our screens all the time it can really isolate us. I think we have to be a lot more intentional—
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
About making sure we nurture those connections.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, and I think there's some research about embodied connection, like being in person with other people.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Doing something together, you know, not just being in person and watching a movie.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Not doing something together virtually, but in person, eating together, playing a game, playing sports, like that embodied connection is really important.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And I think it's easy for us to go through a day without actually really having that kind of connection with people.
Katherine Hurtig:
It is, yeah. How do we do that? Like, do you suggest kind of carving out time in our calendar? Or how can we make sure to be intentional about being with other people?
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. I mean, it's a really tough one. It is different for different people.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
So, it does require time, absolutely. We have to be willing to give some time to that. And also building meaningful connections takes time. Like, sometimes you just have to put the hours in.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
You might not have the best two hours this time with this group, but it builds on itself, and over time those connections become stronger. So, being willing to invest the time, being willing to be open and vulnerable about your own experiences and what you're thinking, being curious about other people. And I think those things are really important because that's what facilitates real connection, not just, you know, you're here in the same room with me.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, it can be tough not, like... to get past small... yeah, you have to get past small talk, you know?
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally, totally.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And someone has to make the first move.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Someone has to kind of risk that. And so, you know, taking small steps into something that's a little bit vulnerable. You know, we don't want to necessarily jump in the deep end right away but being willing to do that. And, yeah, just kind of seeing who sticks around and continuing to invest in those people that are around us, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
So, yeah, all this craziness going on, I mean, it's important to have those connections, to keep our relationship strong. But it also, it can divide people. We have very strong opinions about what's going on in the world, about what's going on around us, like in our own country. And that can fracture relationships, for sure. I mean, I'm guilty of it as well. Like, I mean, if I know someone leans a certain way politically, has a certain opinion, it's super easy to just make those snap judgments, or to be avoidant, or something.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. Let's talk about that, what it's doing to relationships.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. Well, it's so interesting. I had an experience myself and it was during COVID, which I mean, I think we're all living in the aftermath of that, of course.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And I was with a group of friends, or kind of new acquaintances, and they were making some statements politically or about the situation that really took me aback. And this will always stick with me, I think it's really valuable. I was talking with my brother afterwards and I just made the off-handed comment like, ‘I don't know if I could be friends with them.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And I obviously trust my brother a lot and he was able to say to me like, ‘Krystal, I think that's our problem.’ Right? If we're not willing to be friends with someone right away, like right off the bat, you had one lunch with these people and you heard some things that you didn't... you know, you felt a bit uncomfortable with, and that's valid. But then to immediately... and it's kind of acceptable, we treat it like that's acceptable.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And I thought his response was very insightful, and its really stuck with me. And I think the research backs it up, like, that is part of our problem. If we can't lean in and say, ‘OK, like, I might not agree with what you just said but help me to understand how you got there. What's behind that? What are you experiencing personally that makes it feel like this thing to say politically just feels safer than the personal experience that someone might be having of the world?’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Of the fear, of the overwhelm that we're talking about. Or there could just be other things going on that we don't understand about their world.
Katherine Hurtig:
For sure, yeah, we don't understand what other people are going through. And we have these opinions and these thoughts, and they're very important to us. They represent, you know, things that we value. So, yeah, it is easy to kind of go to that stage, like, ‘No, I can't understand this person.’ You know, if you hear someone aligns with something that you don't agree with, yeah, it's easy to just fall into that place of like, ‘No. That's something I don't value, I very much disagree with.’
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
So, to interact with that person, it just doesn't feel right.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
But yeah, what I've learned in my many conversations with you counsellors is approaching things with curiosity. And that's kind of what you were bringing up. Like, ‘OK, well, what does it mean for this person to have that opinion?’
Krystal Blacklock:
And, I mean, I think there's curiosity on a lot of levels. And it's really hard when it feels like somebody's saying something that directly goes against something that we hold really dear.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And that we feel is very important. And so, it's really natural to be like, ‘Oh, whoa, OK.’
Katherine Hurtig:
For sure.
Krystal Blacklock:
‘I actually don't want to feel that discomfort of having to engage with this idea.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
So, I think even in the process of being curious, it's how do we be willing to stay uncomfortable and stay in the conversation, right?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And then it can—
Katherine Hurtig:
Tolerate our own discomfort, yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally, how do we tolerate our own discomfort? And then how do we also tolerate our own discomfort if we're asking questions and find ourselves maybe not agreeing with the conclusion the person has come to, but understanding how they got there or thinking about it in a different way? That can also make us really uncomfortable because that can feel like a threat to the values we hold or the ways that we think.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And I would also argue sometimes it's not about the values. Sometimes we hold one political opinion and assume it reflects a number of values.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Right? And so, we might actually share a value set with someone who has a different political opinion. The way we're interpreting that, politically, could be different.
Katherine Hurtig:
For sure.
Krystal Blacklock:
Even those kinds of things, that complexity is really hard to hold. I think being able to recognize that and say, ‘OK, I'm willing to be uncomfortable with this because I want to be curious, and I want to not perpetuate this divided world we live in.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, I know, because like... definitely guilty of this. Like, you find out a person has one belief or opinion, and then you assume four or five more other things.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally.
Katherine Hurtig:
It's like, ‘OK, well, that means they believe this, and this, and this.’
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And it can have ramifications for our friend groups, too.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
We can be in a group where it's like, if I'm going to ask a question in curiosity to somebody on another side of an issue, that can also come across in an interesting way. Like I'm selling out or I'm betraying my own side of the issue.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. It's a very delicate, tricky thing to navigate.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
And I mean, very much easier said than done, but I think we all need to work on just, yeah, that curiosity and being OK with disagreeing with each other.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Like, ‘OK, I think this.’ OK, well, I don't.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, totally.
Katherine Hurtig:
And that's OK.
Krystal Blacklock:
That's OK.
Katherine Hurtig:
We can disagree.
Krystal Blacklock:
Totally, yeah. And I think, like, respectfully disagreeing.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, respectfully disagreeing.
Krystal Blacklock:
Just because I disagree with someone, and I can disagree with them quite wholeheartedly, doesn't mean I have to disrespect them as a person. That we can still hold a lot of mutual respect and not agree.
Katherine Hurtig:
Maybe not super specifically, but like, how do we kind of navigate these situations? I remember I encountered a conversation with a family member. They brought up a topic, and they had an opinion that I felt pretty strongly on the opposite side.
Krystal Blacklock:
Right.
Katherine Hurtig:
And I thought, ‘OK, well, it's my place to express my opinion and my boundary. And I don't want to talk about this.’
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
I don't think I maybe handled that in the best way. Yeah, what do we do? How do we approach those conversations?
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, it's so hard. And I mean, I'm sure you hear this on this podcast a lot. But I think it really depends on the situation, too.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
So, that's so tough. Yeah, because I think there is a place to be able to say, ‘You know what, this is a boundary for me.’ And sometimes, it protects the relationship to have a boundary like, ‘OK, we agree to disagree on this, and we're actually not going to engage in this conversation.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Right?
Katherine Hurtig:
Sometimes it is best just to not go to those certain topics.
Krystal Blacklock:
Right, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And I think, oh, yeah, it's really tough. I think to be able to be as much as possible, you know, use statements like, ‘I feel.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
‘I feel like I can't engage with this topic with you.’ Rather than, ‘You make me feel upset.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Krystal Blacklock:
Or like, ‘Your ideas are wrong.’ So, starting with an ‘I’ statement can be really helpful in those situations. And of course, there's going to be a lot of emotion. I think going in and expecting that.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Expecting to be uncomfortable, again. And also communicating to the person that you do value these other things about the relationship. And it's hard because in conversation we're always only 50 per cent of it, right?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
We can help set a tone, but then it's also how do we respond to the other person, and the way they're going to respond? And that's out of our control.
Katherine Hurtig:
That's the hardest thing for me and boundaries. It's like, ‘OK I want to set this boundary.’ And you just kind of want to be able to put it out there and have it be respected.
Krystal Blacklock:
Right.
Katherine Hurtig:
And yeah, we don't have any control over that.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
So, then it's a whole other thing about like, ‘OK, well, how am I going to respond when my boundary isn't respected?’
Krystal Blacklock:
Right.
Katherine Hurtig:
If there's a relationship in our lives that has already kind of been strained by the tension that we're talking about in these kinds of conversations, is it possible to repair it? Where would we start?
Krystal Blacklock:
I personally believe it's absolutely possible to repair relationships. And then, of course, there's every relationship situation.
Katherine Hurtig:
Again, it depends.
Krystal Blacklock:
As always. But yeah, I think approaching with humility, and approaching with a sense of what you hope for from the relationship. Because these issues are one piece of our lives, but there's so many other things, right? So, is this person somebody that I can go to the mall with?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Is this person somebody I can play soccer with? Is this person somebody I can find another way of enjoying the world with, that doesn't involve having to really focus on those kinds of like hot button topics? And that might involve, you know, a conversation that's something like, ‘You know, I really miss playing soccer with you. Like, is there a way that we can agree to disagree and engage in this other part of our relationship that's really meaningful?’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And I think naming or owning pieces of a broken relationship that we might recognize was our responsibility, right?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Like, ‘Hey, I'm really sorry that I spoke to you disrespectfully. Can we work that through? I know we're not going to agree.’ And approaching that from those kinds of perspectives can be really helpful.
Katherine Hurtig:
Through all of this, what should we be focusing on, working on? Like, is there a way to kind of build some resilience so, and please correct me if I’m wrong, this stuff doesn't... not that it doesn't affect us as much, but so we can feel better able to handle these hard things that we're going through?
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, I mean, I think we've talked about some of them.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Like connecting with other people, doing things we enjoy, committing to that. Another thing that research is showing is really beneficial to us, especially in our current world with social media and everything, is looking for opportunities to experience awe.
Katherine Hurtig:
Awe?
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Oh. Tell me more.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. So, things like, well, nature is a great way to experience that. And here we're so close to the Rockies.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
But just being able to be in situations where you're amazed in a really positive way. Right now, we're kind of horrified consistently about a lot of things.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
So, finding the opposite, right? So, doing a hike. Even if you're able to go for a walk, and go for a walk in a park and, you know, put your phone on silent.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Pay attention to the leaves that are coming out in the spring, or the snow that's falling, or the squirrel that's running around. And kind of being willing to be caught in the magic of what the world actually does have to offer that is really beautiful.
Katherine Hurtig:
I love that. And like, I've noticed it more lately. I wouldn't say it was like any kind of screen addiction, but I don't like how I feel when I spend a lot of time on my phone. And so, I am being more intentional about taking time away from it. And my husband and I were recently in Utah, and we did quite a bit of camping. And we were definitely in moments that brought us awe.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, absolutely.
Katherine Hurtig:
And I think, like you said, when you're in nature like that, it kind of forces you to be in the moment, to be mindful. You're just surrounded by newness and things that you're not around all the time. Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. And I think, you know, nature is an easy one or an obvious one. But, you know, people are doing amazing things all the time. There's movies and stories about people who've done incredibly inspiring things. And so, exposing ourselves intentionally to that, curating our algorithm so that's what we're getting.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, searching for the good news.
Krystal Blacklock:
Exactly. And not just good, but stuff that makes us like, ‘Wow.’ And inspires that kind of sense of awe. I think historically, religion or the divine has been something that people have found that in. And in our current society, that's not as prevalent for us.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, for a lot of people, spirituality is a big part of their lives. Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Exactly. And so, you know, for finding ways to be in awe of something that's bigger than ourselves. Finding meaning in something that's really, yeah, inspiring and awesome in kind of the classic or actual original words there, awe-some. Like, something that inspires awe in us has been shown to be a really powerful thing for people and for our well-being.
Katherine Hurtig:
That's great homework for all the listeners.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, absolutely.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, find something awesome.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Well, Krystal, thank you so much. I do, I feel better after this conversation.
Krystal Blacklock:
Good.
Katherine Hurtig:
I feel a bit more hopeful, and yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah. And me too, actually.
Katherine Hurtig:
Good.
Krystal Blacklock:
This was nice. Even doing the research, I was like, ‘Oh, you know, this is actually really interesting.’ And there’s some really hopeful and beautiful things that we can be part of.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Krystal Blacklock:
And we are capable of hard things and that's what gives meaning to us, too.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. We can get through it.
Krystal Blacklock:
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Katherine.
Katherine Hurtig
You’ve been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in. This episode was produced by Layla Ruggles, Luiza Campos, Julianna Adair, Jenna Forbes, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Krystal Blacklock.
Turn into our next episode on June 16th. We’ll be talking about LGBTQ+ mental health and the importance of Pride month.
...
If you’re not in the community, if you don’t have someone in your life in the community, you can kind of think, ‘Oh, well, we’ve made lots of strides. Like, what’s the big deal?’
Rasha Taha:
Yeah, exactly. And yet, queer and trans folks still experience a ton of oppression, they experience discrimination. There’s so many things that still, so many barriers still get in the way of queer and trans folks being able to live their full, authentic lives. And even though, yeah, I want to acknowledge the progress that we have made. And we still have a lot of work to do. And Pride is a time for us to celebrate, for us to be able to look back and acknowledge the work that has been done, and also for us to look towards the work that still needs to be done.
Katherine Hurtig:
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favourite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 Territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling to anyone in Alberta with no waitlist and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com and counsellingalberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the U.S., seek help from your general medical practitioner.