Season 4, Episode 7: Worry vs. anxiety: how to tell the difference
We all worry sometimes. But when does worry become anxiety, and how can you tell the difference? In this episode, social worker Carmen Sadoway talks about how anxiety works, why it can feel so intense, and how it often connects to uncertainty, change, and the urge to prepare for every possible outcome.
You’ll learn to recognize the physical signs of anxiety, panic attacks, explore both helpful and unhelpful coping strategies, and discover simple ways to approach anxiety with more compassion.
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Katherine Hurtig:
Welcome to Living Fully. Each episode is a chance to talk about mental health in a way that's simple, honest, and helpful. We'll share stories, tips, and tools to help you feel supported and feel your best. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
Worrying is normal. It's a part of being human. Our brains are built to look ahead, plan, problem solve, and keep us safe. But sometimes, that protective system can get a little overactive, and what starts as everyday worry can begin to feel more intense and harder to shut off. Today, I'm joined by counsellor, Carmen Sadoway, and we're talking about worry and anxiety, what makes them different, how anxiety shows up in the body, and how to respond with more compassion and curiosity instead of self-criticism.
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I am here with Carmen Sadoway. Thank you.
Carmen Sadoway:
Thank you.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. Now it's been a little while since you've been on the podcast. So yeah, refresh our listeners' memories. Who are you? What do you do?
Carmen Sadoway:
So, Carmen Sadaway, I'm a staff counsellor at Calgary Counselling Centre. I've been here since 2021. I do counselling. I work with students. I work with staff.
Katherine Hurtig:
Awesome. And we are talking about worry and anxiety, the difference between the two. Carmen, how would you kind of define that? Like, what would be the difference between everyday worry and anxiety?
Carmen Sadoway:
So, I think a lot of times people use those terms interchangeably. But I would say that the word worry sort of isolates the more cognitive process, so the thinking part of anxiety.
Katherine Hurtig:
OK.
Carmen Sadoway:
But the word anxiety kind of captures more than that. It's not just the cognitive or mental part, but it's the body, the physiological part of anxiety.
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Carmen Sadoway:
And the emotional experience of it. So, it sort of encompasses more than just sort of the worry.
Katherine Hurtig:
That's a great way to put it. Because, you know, in my head, when I say that right off the bat, I think almost levels of intensity. Like, worry is less intense than anxiety. But yeah, there is that difference of the physiological side of it. Yeah, what does normal worry look like? Because it is very human. It's a very normal thing to worry sometimes.
Carmen Sadoway:
It is. Yeah, absolutely.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, it's a great question. And you're absolutely correct. Anxiety and worry are just part of being human. We all experience these things from time to time. And it's just throughout the evolution of the human species, our brains have just developed to be able to do things to keep ourselves safe. Whether that means safety in a physical life threat kind of way, or in a social relational kind of way. Our brains have developed ways to keep ourselves safe and developed this amazing capacity to think into the future and also have access into the past through our memory. And so over a millennia of experience of just being humans, we have just a lot of experience of safety seeking, problem solving, planning ahead of time to be safe. And all of these can involve the process of some worry, and anxiety can function so that we can do those things well. And it's really amazing to have that capacity, that our brains as humans is sort of special. But it is also true that sometimes the smoke alarms in our brain can get tripped a little bit more easily than they should at times.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. Because I've heard counsellors' kind of, you know, make the analogy when anxiety comes up, it's like we're being chased by a lion. But that lion could be a difficult email we have to write or something.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
So, it's not the most appropriate response.
Carmen Sadoway:
Exactly. The other metaphor that I use is with the smoke alarm being tripped. It's like, OK, maybe there was a time in your life where there was an actual fire, and the smoke alarm did have to go off. But now, it's being tripped because the toast is burning, right? Sometimes we need to sort of recalibrate the smoke alarm system.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So that we're sort of interpreting the threat in a more accurate way sometimes.
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
I like these analogies.
Carmen Sadoway:
Good. And so sometimes like we just, the smoke alarms can get tripped. And sometimes we're just overdoing it with the worry. Like, we just kind of do more than is actually necessary or helpful. I think we've all been there sometimes.
Katherine Hurtig:
Oh, yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah. And it can just truly, it can feel really awful to have a high level of anxiety. No one likes the feelings and sensations involved with a feeling of dread, or a panic attack, or just feeling hypervigilant all the time. It's inherently a stressful experience. But I do often tell people that even if we could surgically remove anxiety and worry from your brain, we would never want to do that. Because it just plays too important of a role in keeping us safe, helping us plan ahead, and functioning just effectively in life. Like, we do really need it. So, worry can be part of every human's experience. And it's just natural, right? We have things on our mind, we have to make plans for the future, we have problems to solve.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, they are really useful.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
You briefly mentioned panic attacks, and you talked about how anxiety shows up in the body. Can you describe that a little more? Like what, besides worried thoughts, what can someone potentially experience if they're dealing with anxiety?
Carmen Sadoway:
OK. So, there's the worry as the cognitive process.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, the things that our mind, the thoughts and worries that our mind drums up for us in different situations. And that can elicit or bring on experience of anxiety. But when it's felt in that sort of physical or emotional way, there's just known things that the body does sort of in response to a triggering situation or just higher anxiety. So, your pulse can get faster, your heart rate, your blood pressure can go up, muscles can tense, your gut can kind of squeeze, right? There's just this tension, which sort of like prepares the body for that fight or flight that you mentioned before. Like, it prepares the body for action. And so, it's needed and it's helpful. And sometimes those sensations can be mild, like you get some sort of stressful email and you feel your stomach just... blah, right?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
But it's temporary, it's mild, it's not that big of a deal. But sometimes those sensations can also just get stronger, like in a panic attack, for instance, right? And then afterwards, if somebody's experienced a higher level of like physiological arousal and anxiety, afterwards, sometimes people will say, ‘Oh, I just have a killer headache.’ Or, ‘I just felt this sense of fatigue afterwards. It really tired me out.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, it really can, yeah, it can really have a physical, visceral kind of feeling that goes along with it.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, that fatigue, that really makes sense. I've definitely experienced that. If you're in a really anxious state, all those different body functions are happening. So that is going to tire you out.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah, absolutely.
Katherine Hurtig:
In terms of panic attacks, but I've also heard of anxiety attacks, and are those different? And what does that look like?
Carmen Sadoway:
I mean, I think different people use these terms in different ways to sort of colloquially.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
But a panic attack—
Katherine Hurtig:
And that's good to kind of, yeah, note that.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah. When I think of a panic attack, I think about a very intense surge of anxiety that can come with a really sort of like exaggerated fight/flight response.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, like that's when people are, their heart is pounding in their chest or having a hard time breathing. Sometimes because the body is just preparing itself to be in this fight or flight mode. Sometimes there can be other secondary effects like dizziness and just like a feeling of doom or dread that goes with it.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, it's very intense. If you've had one, you know what it is. But they're not dangerous. They're very, they're actually more common than people realize. And I mean, if you're having those kinds of symptoms, like for sure, talk to a doctor, talk to a counsellor, you want to get checked out. But it is just a known phenomenon that can sometimes go along with anxiety, not all the time. But it's short-lived. A panic attack is usually like anywhere from a couple minutes to 20 minutes, 30 minutes.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
But it's not something that will last for seven days if you're also sleeping in there and things like that. It's usually just this real intense spike and then it comes down again.
Katherine Hurtig:
Well, I'm glad you addressed that because my follow-up question would have been, is it dangerous? Because I'm sure when you're in that scenario, your heart is racing, you're hyperventilating. That can feel pretty dangerous.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yes.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah. No, it's scary. It's a dreadful experience, and it does elicit this fear about the symptoms. I think when people have the right information about what a panic attack is and that it doesn't cause harm. And it can really kind of allay anxiety about the anxiety, essentially.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Right? To know like, it's short lived. It'll be OK. It's not causing damage to you. Yeah, I think sometimes just learning about what it is can really help with those fears that come up about it. Because sometimes people start interpreting symptoms about anxiety in a way that might not be true, or realistic, or helpful.
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Carmen Sadoway:
They might think because my heart is pounding, it means I'm having a heart attack.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
That may not be true. So, you need to be able to, I mean, for sure, get yourself checked out. If you know, if some of this is happening, you need to talk to a doctor. But a lot of times people talk to the doctor, the doctor says everything's fine with your heart.
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, it's more a matter of interpreting the symptoms as a panic attack as opposed to like, a health crisis. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
And sorry, you may have addressed this, but so, panic attack, anxiety attack—Are they kind of interchangeable in terms of what we're talking about?
Carmen Sadoway:
I think a lot of people use them interchangeably. For myself, I will differentiate, like when I'm working with clients. I'll differentiate a panic attack as what I described as this like real intense surge, a spike.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
And then it comes down as short-lived. People might talk about anxiety episodes, right, that last longer. But it's not, it can be really intense and unpleasant, but it's not the same as the hyperventilating or this kind of thing.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
I think it also depends on each person, right? How they experience their symptoms, and how they come and go, and what triggers it.
Katherine Hurtig:
For sure, yeah, because we're not like anyone who's dealt with anxiety. It is very individual. It's very subjective. Like, one person is going to feel anxious about one thing that might not bother another person.
Carmen Sadoway:
Exactly, and I think in counselling, I think that's really important for people to know that we really take an individual look at you and your anxiety, what might be triggering it. Because you're a unique person who has your own physiology and your own set of worries. You're going to experience it in a way that's unique to you. And so that's important for us to kind of talk with you about.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. Can worry turn into anxiety?
Carmen Sadoway:
So, worry... Here's the thing, is that not all worry is accompanied by high anxiety, but anxiety usually has some kind of feature of worry.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. That makes sense.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah. Someone can be worried about something but not necessarily be feeling that like emotional, physiological arousal about it. So like, let's say I'm worried about my finances in retirement or something. You know, it's on my mind. I'm kind of worried about, ‘Am I saving enough?’ But I'm not necessarily feeling this like distressing, kind of anxiety feeling at this moment. Maybe I will at a different time. But right now, I'm not. So, I can sort of be grappling with some worry but not necessarily feel overwhelmed with anxiety.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Whereas other times you can have a worry that is like, a little bit more urgent or pressing and it can really elicit a strong anxiety response.
Katherine Hurtig:
And yeah, in my talks with you guys, you guys have explained that it's kind of cause for concern if these feelings and experiences are like... Joel uses a great kind of term. It's like, if you want to check intensity, duration, and...
Carmen Sadoway:
Frequency?
Katherine Hurtig:
Frequency, yes. Yeah, so is that kind of the same thing? So, with anxiety, I mean?
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah, for sure. Like, if somebody... let’s say panic attacks. If somebody is having frequent panic attacks, if it's like every day, or at least once a week, or something like that, right? That would be kind of a sign of a stronger anxiety experience that might warrant talking to a doctor about, talking to a counsellor about. Intensity is just that degree of unpleasantness.
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Carmen Sadoway:
That goes along with the symptoms.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, is it just like you said this low-grade worry that comes up? Or is it something that's bothering you every day? Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah, exactly. And how long it lasts for. You said duration too, right?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, one question that I'll sometimes ask people when it comes to worry is like, ‘When it comes to this worry, how effective do you feel at being able to put that worry on the shelf when it makes sense to do so?’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Like, if you need to be focused on something else, like being with your kids or whatever, are you able to put your worry about the other thing on the shelf so that you can be present? And depending on how somebody answers that, just gives us some helpful information about how much it's bothering them.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
And if someone's going through anxiety and not necessarily worry. And it is frequent, it's lasting a while, it's kind of intense. How would that show up? How would that impact their day-to-day? How would it impact relationships?
Carmen Sadoway:
So, sometimes anxiety can show up because there's a known reason. Like, someone might know like, ‘Oh, I'm feeling more anxious because my in-laws are coming to town.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Or, ‘I'm feeling more anxious because I've started a new job.’ Or something like that.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, there's some things that are like—
Katherine Hurtig:
You can pinpoint if that's the reason.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah, you can understand it. You can validate your experience of it. And there's things that you might do sort of at a physiological level to help yourself turn down the dial on the anxiety to kind of help relax the nervous system a little bit. But there's also sometimes anxiety shows up in someone's life and it's puzzling.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Someone is like, ‘Where the heck did this come from?’
Katherine Hurtig:
For sure.
Carmen Sadoway:
Right? ‘Why is this here? I'm not sure what triggered this, why this is here right now, what this is connected to.’ And that can be a very unsettling thing to not know. But for either of these things, whether you know where it's coming from or you don't, it's great to talk through it with somebody, right? To try to figure out what it's about. And also, just to talk about ways that you can kind of help yourself cope with those symptoms of anxiety, but maybe also understand it and make a plan for going forward.
Katherine Hurtig:
And what are some of those typical ways of coping with anxiety that you help clients with?
Carmen Sadoway:
So, there's physiological things that people do. Like, sometimes there's just lifestyle medicine kinds of things, right? People will just, like common sense, people will say, ‘When I'm getting outside more, I feel less anxious. When I'm getting some exercise in, I feel less anxious. When I'm getting to yoga, when I'm doing some mindfulness exercises before bed.’ These kinds of things can just help kind of calm the nervous system a little bit. I think intentionally, too, we often are teaching people about different kinds of breathing exercises, different kinds of guided exercises coming from mindfulness and meditation that help people focus on the body, relax the body, release tension. Just kind of bring some awareness of the present moment that can also include some self-compassion and softness. So sometimes we'll do that at kind of the body level, but then there's all kinds of things that we do at the worry level, at the cognitive level.
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Carmen Sadoway:
Where we kind of get into figuring out what somebody is worried about and how they might intervene with that worry or cope with that worry in a different way.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, so it's kind of a multi-pronged approach, hey?
Carmen Sadoway:
It is.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. And Carmen, are there certain situations or life stages where worry might typically show up more for certain people?
Carmen Sadoway:
So, people can worry just across their lifespan, again, it's part of a human experience so really at any age. So, little kids might worry about say making friends or starting a new school, they can have anxiety and worries. Teens might worry about school, academics, or belonging in a social group, they can have worries about that. Adults obviously have like infinite number of things they might worry about. So, it can just really show up any day, any time. But there's also just some life moments where we might anticipate for more anxiety to come up. So, when people are in times of transition or change.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Of course, that can bring up uncertainty and anxiety.
Katherine Hurtig:
Because uncertainty is really kind of built into anxiety, hey?
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah. And so actually, that was one of the things I wanted to share, that sometimes what I'll categorize for people is things that trigger worry into sort of three types. So, one type would be uncertainty and unpredictability. So, for instance, if your plane left late and you don't know if you're going to make your connecting flight.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
It introduces this level of like unpredictability, uncertainty. ‘Am I going to get there on time? Then what am I going to have to go to a hotel?’ Etc. So that unpredictability or uncertainty can naturally elicit some anxiety. Times of novelty, so when say there's a kid who's trying out a new sport or something and they don't know the game or the rules. It's new. So, there's, again, there's kind of that uncertainty there of not being sure about how to do the new thing and be good at it.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
And then the other one is ambiguity. So like, let's say someone didn't laugh at a joke that you made and their response on their face is kind of ambiguous because you don't know what they're thinking.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
You might start worrying about what their face was saying or not saying or what was going on in their mind.
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Carmen Sadoway:
So sometimes knowing those triggers, so unpredictability and uncertainty, novelty, ambiguity. Sometimes just being able to label what kind of trigger it is can help sort of normalize the experience of anxiety. Like, ‘Oh, no wonder I'm a bit anxious because their response was ambiguous.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
You know, we can kind of validate our own experience of it, which can be helpful.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah like, those all kind of tie into this idea of certainty. Like, we want to know what's going on.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
We don't like to be confused, or surprised, or caught off guard.
Carmen Sadoway:
No, we don’t.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
And I think there's some folks who will say, like in terms of tolerating that uncertainty and having picked up some wisdom along the way for how to kind of tolerate that, or ways to think about it, cope with moments of uncertainty, there's things that people do. But then I think for just a lot of people and for a lot of reasons, tolerating the uncertainty, it just elicits a lot of feelings of threat.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
It feels really risky. It's anxiety provoking.
Katherine Hurtig:
I think what you said though, like of validating what you're going through. I mean, I know that was huge for me kind of recognizing like, ‘Yeah, this certain thing is making me anxious. That's a normal response in this scenario.’
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
And so, it might not take the anxiety away, but it's like, yeah, this is OK that you're feeling this way. And it just made it so I didn't feel like I was weird, or overreacting, or something like that.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Totally. And I think when we're able to kind of see it from that angle, then we can stop fighting against the anxiety. We can stop saying, ‘Well, I shouldn't feel this way.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Or ‘You should be coping better.’ Like, putting ourselves down for having the anxiety in the first place.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
That just creates, puts us in relationship with anxiety where we're upset with ourselves or being hard with ourselves.
Katherine Hurtig:
Totally.
Carmen Sadoway:
But if we can understand and say, ‘You know, kind of makes sense that this is here for me in this life moment.’ We're kind of dropping the tug of war with the anxiety just to be like, ‘You know what? Yeah, it's here. It's understandable.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. And you guys have said this a lot before too, like emotions are information. So, validating the feelings and then kind of figuring out, ‘OK, what is this telling me?’ Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Totally. I think approaching it with some like curiosity, and acceptance, and just looking at it like, ‘What is this moment or this anxiety telling me about what I need?’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
That's pretty important information to decide what you want to do next.
Katherine Hurtig:
What are some ways that you've seen people deal with anxiety? Or worked with clients on coping mechanisms that aren't so helpful?
Carmen Sadoway:
I think, I mean, there's all kinds of different ways that people try to manage the symptoms, right? And manage their worry. Some of them, if you just put them on a spectrum, some of them might be more helpful for somebody.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Like solve a problem, or address an issue, just look after themselves while they're going through it. They can be helpful. But then other things I think can sort of tip over into the unhelpful side. Particularly, I think whenever there's uncertainty, there's anxiety. And whenever there's anxiety, there tends to be often like a default to avoidance.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, because it's uncomfortable.
Carmen Sadoway:
Exactly.
Katherine Hurtig:
So, it makes sense that we want to avoid that uncomfortable feeling.
Carmen Sadoway:
Exactly. We all just like instinctively want to brace against pain.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
And if anxiety is like a kind of suffering or pain, of course, we want distance from it. So, sometimes we just do things sort of instinctively or by default. But those things can sometimes get in the way of us doing the things that we want to do in our life.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Or get in the way of us, kind of as opposed to avoiding, approaching the feared situation or the anxiety provoking situation, and trying out new ways to engage with it or cope with it. But I think also just the unpleasantness, right, of some of the symptoms of anxiety. People sometimes do things because they want to take the edge off that.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Right? If people are turning to substances or something to take the edge off the discomfort of the feelings.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Or as a way to dampen anxiety in certain situations, say like social situations. I think, you know, it's probably something that a lot of people have tried, but it's one of those things where it's sort of... maybe there's some short-term effect there. But in the long term, it can also be unhelpful if somebody is relying on either substances or something, some sort of avoidant based coping.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. And what I've learned through the years is it's easier to avoid. But the thing is, like, we're not going to stop being exposed to things that might make us anxious. So, it's better to figure out how to deal with this thing and build the skills to handle it appropriately than just not deal with the uncomfortable emotion.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah. And I mean, there's still going to be times where a person might decide in this moment, it's going to be better for me to flee.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
You know, like that is OK.
Katherine Hurtig:
For sure.
Carmen Sadoway:
And sometimes that is the best way to stay safe or just the best choice in the moment. Like, you think about if somebody is being, you know, really unkind or cruel, you might just decide to leave.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Right? That makes sense. But there's other opportunities, I think, when somebody is overestimating the threat or the danger and they are coping by just not approaching whatever it is.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, by taking the opportunity and the challenge to lean into it, you get to find out, ‘OK, did the scary thing actually happen?’
Katherine Hurtig:
Right. Because that's a big thing with anxiety. It's like we’re often predicting the future.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
And it’s not always right.
Carmen Sadoway:
Right, yeah. So, if you approach something as opposed to avoid it, you get to find out what actually happens. But also, by putting yourself in the situation with that challenge, you could also get the opportunity to experience yourself doing it, which is a great confidence booster over time, right? You start to feel competent.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Like, ‘I can do this. It was hard and I did manage it.’
Katherine Hurtig:
And it gives yourself evidence in the future.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Like, ‘Hey, I have all these times that I can look back on.’ And be like, ‘Yeah, this was scary or hard, but I did it.’
Carmen Sadoway:
And there's this equation that sometimes people talk about when it comes to anxiety. That anxiety is the overestimation of threat or danger divided by the underestimation of our ability to cope.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, if you avoid, you don't get to check out actually if your estimation of the threat or danger is accurate, and you don't get an opportunity to practice coping or see what you can do, right? So, it really kind of gets in the way. And in counselling, we just try to help people find ways to re-evaluate or reassess the level of danger or threat sometimes.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
But also have things that they can do to boost up that feeling of competence and confidence to feel the fear and do it anyway.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Essentially.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. I love that one.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah. Book title, David Burns, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. That idea of being brave or courageous isn't the absence of fear.
Carmen Sadoway:
Exactly.
Katherine Hurtig:
It's feeling it and doing it anyway. Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah. When there's a good reason to, you know. When you don’t want to miss out on something that's important to you or, you know, you're standing up for something that's important and it’s worth feeling the anxiety anyways. You know, those are a good motivator, I think.
Katherine Hurtig:
How do you work with kids around this idea? Like, I've definitely experienced situations with my stepson over the years where he's been a bit anxious about certain situations. And it's different trying to explain these concepts to a kid, you know? He definitely, like, what is that term where you're trying to, like, predict the future?
Carmen Sadoway:
Like, catastrophizing or jumping to conclusions?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, thinking of the worst-case scenario. Like, I'm thinking right now he's in the ninth grade and he's, you know, about to go into high school, and he's thinking about classes next year. And he really gets in his head and thinks about like, ‘Oh, I can't take this advanced science class. Like what if I fail?’ You know? And it's like—
Carmen Sadoway:
Classic what ifs. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Oh yeah. And I can totally relate. But it's like, how do you work with them to break that down and kind of have them realize that it is just a worried thought and not reality. Or maybe, yeah, I don’t know if ‘not reality’ is the right term.
Carmen Sadoway:
I mean, I think there's different ways that, as counsellors, we work with people generally, but with kids when it comes to anxiety. Like, one of the ways that I think sometimes lands well with kids, but also just a lot of people, is the idea of anxiety as a bit of a bully. Or like anxiety as a, you know, a bully that sort of pushes you around, tells you what to do, makes you feel afraid kind of thing.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
And so, by kind of framing it that way, it allows us to see the anxiety as kind of this presence, but then we can look at—
Katherine Hurtig:
Like there's some distance from it.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah. But it kind of then puts us into a position to ask about like, ‘What are ways that you're courageous and brave in the face of this bully? What are the ways that you're already kind of carrying on doing things that are important to you, even if the bully's yapping at you?’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Like that kind of thing. That can be sort of like tapping into what you mentioned before about the courage and the bravery. That's huge, I think. But the what ifs, right? That's what worries are, essentially.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
What if this happens? What if this then happens? And then it snowballs into this, and then the worst-case scenario happens. What if, what if, right?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, I do that all the time.
Carmen Sadoway:
Oh, yeah. I mean, it's again, this is what brains do.
Katherine Hurtig:
They're human.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah, exactly. So, for that, and again, this isn't just for kids.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
I think, in general, a way to sort of flip that is two questions for when you're hearing a lot of what ifs. The first question is, ‘What else?’
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Carmen Sadoway:
What else might happen if you take that advanced science class?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
What might be a positive outcome? What might be a best-case scenario?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
What might be a neutral case scenario, right? By asking, ‘what else’, it kind of opens up the mind to other possibilities. That's not just worst-case scenario, ‘I'm going to flunk it. I'm going to be the worst person in the class. I'm not going to be able to keep up and then I'm going to fail high school.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
You know?
Katherine Hurtig:
The snowball, for sure.
Carmen Sadoway:
So just asking, ‘What else? What else is possible that could happen?’ Because we just don't know yet. You're not in high school yet.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, sometimes that can be useful. The other one, besides ‘what else’, is, ‘What then?’ So, it would be like, OK, let's say you got into the advanced science class, and we did realize it was pretty advanced and you were struggling. How could we problem solve around that together? What then would we do if we caught that early?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
What would be some options, right? And so, then you kind of help the kid in this case come up with ideas. Well, maybe you can get extra help from the teacher. You can get a tutor. Maybe we would decide to go into the regular stream science class.
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Carmen Sadoway:
Right? So, the ‘what then’ question kind of puts you in a position to be like, ‘How would we cope if it is hard?’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
And let's just focus on the plan but not let the fear get in the way of just trying something and shooting for it, if it makes sense.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. Amazing. I'm taking all these tips home, for sure. But yeah, when he talks like that, I just, I see bits of myself. Because I've, you know, dealt with those thoughts for years. You know, ‘What if?’ Like, I need to prepare for the worst-case scenario. Like, I need to think of every possible scenario and how I would handle it just so I'm prepared and I'm not going to be caught off guard.
Carmen Sadoway:
Sometimes we overdo it.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah. So, if you think about somebody imagining all the potential outcomes of something, all the potential scenarios. And then for each one of those scenarios, somebody has a detailed plan of what to do.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
That's when I was saying before, sometimes we overdo it, right?
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
That's when obviously worry and the ways that we're coping start to have a negative effect on our functioning. How we feel about ourselves, our energy level, how we're feeling physically. So yeah, it's a good one to be paying attention to, overdoing it.
Katherine Hurtig:
So how would we know... like, what sign should we look out for to know that it might be a good time to get help?
Carmen Sadoway:
I think, I mean obviously you might just have a sense of like, I got a lot of worries on my mind.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Right? And you might know where it's coming from and just kind of have a sense of like, ‘Right now, I'm worrying more and have more anxiety in my life.’ So that might just tell you.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Give yourself the sense, ‘I'm going to go talk to somebody or I'm going to talk to my doctor.’ Or whatever. But I think other times people might notice kind of like, physical symptoms that they don't... sometimes it's easy to dismiss as not being related to anxiety and could be something else. So, if you go home later today and you have a headache or something.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
You might interpret that as like, ‘Well, I didn't drink enough water.’ And you might kind of dismiss that it might be connected to like the stress of the day, or the or anxiety, or something.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Similarly, like someone's got a stomach ache. And for kids, right, a lot of times with anxiety, that's what they'll say is like, ‘I got a stomach ache.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Right? And it's that kind of like, anticipatory dread feeling. Like, that's often, it's a common one. But for somebody, if they're interpreting the stomach ache as like, ‘Oh, maybe that sandwich I had at lunch was bad.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
They might not be connecting it to like, ‘Well, maybe there was something stressful in my day that caused me to worry, that caused some anxiety.’
Katherine Hurtig:
And I think if that shows, that it is important to check in with a doctor sometimes about these things.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Because, yeah, physical symptoms, they can mean so many different things. Yeah, a doctor can kind of help you figure out what that might be, and then potentially if it is anxiety, direct you to the counselling.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah, that's right. I think it's always a good idea. We say go to the doctor for a checkup.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
It'd be good to do that too with a counsellor. Because there's also other signs or symptoms that might be connected to carrying a lot of worry and anxiety. So like, if somebody's not sleeping well that's a huge one, right, they're like having trouble kind of winding down at night or they wake up in the middle of the night with worries. That can be an indicator that it's just, it's bothering them in a more kind of pronounced way. Yeah. Like I said, like headaches. Just kind of feeling really tired. Like, if somebody is putting in all of that extra energy into trying to plan, trying to control, trying to manage, and it's a little over the top, right? Somebody might be feeling just like, exhausted.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. It can be so draining.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah. In a mental and a physical way, just like being so depleted from all that effort.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. We’ve talked about uncertainty and the unknown. How does that kind of fuel worry and anxiety, and why is it so uncomfortable to sit with that uncertainty?
Carmen Sadoway:
It's really the idea of intolerance of uncertainty is really at the heart of worry and anxiety.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Worry in particular. When that's there, this like uncertainty theme, and we're having a hard time tolerating it, it just floods in all kinds of stuff for us. And I think when there is uncertainty, it's just, there's this reminder that there's actually just so much in the world that's beyond our direct control.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
And I think you mentioned that there's so many factors involved and influences that can impact an outcome. And I think just day-to-day life, we're often confronted with the reality about how our own power and influence to control things is actually limited.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
And that is distressing, sometimes, right? We can feel really powerless and really helpless. It just feels awful because normally people tend to feel more well or just feel good about things if they feel like they have a sense of agency, if they know they have choices and they can effectively do things to get the outcome they want, right? Like it just feels more empowering.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. Like, if I'm worried about, I don't know, like you brought up the example of finances and retirement, it feels like that feels a bit more in one's control. Like, ‘OK, here's the plan.’
Carmen Sadoway:
Right.
Katherine Hurtig:
Like, ‘This is the money I'm going to put aside. This is how I'm going to manage spending. These are the choices that I can make to help with that worry, the actions I can take.’ But there's so many things, especially now in 2026, that are going on around us that we don't have control over.
Carmen Sadoway:
Exactly.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah. You think about young people starting off, right? And just like, employment issues and, you know, affordability of housing, whether it's to rent or buy.
Katherine Hurtig:
And I know there is that saying like, ‘Focus on what you can control and let go of what you can't.’ But that is easier said than done.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah, for sure. It's definitely easier said than done. And I think I've recently come across this different tool. So, there's that, ‘Things in your control things not within your control.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Make a list. Why are we spending so much time focusing on things happening that we don't have any control over? But there's another one that talks about sort of a middle sphere of control, which is a sphere of influence. So, we might not have direct control over the property tax increase going up or something.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
But maybe we have some influence. I can write my city counsellor. I can appeal things.
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Carmen Sadoway:
Right? Like, there's some influence that I can try. And sometimes someone might say, ‘Well, that's what's within our control.’ But I'm also kind of doing those things, not expecting that I necessarily will get the outcome that I want. But it's a sphere of influence.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. And it's taking action, right? It's doing something.
Carmen Sadoway:
It's doing something.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, we often just kind of feel better when we're able to do something about it.
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Carmen Sadoway:
But it's also just a reality that there's things that we didn't plan for. There's things that we just can't anticipate coming up that introduces all kinds of uncertainty into our world. And I think, like I was saying, I think there's different kinds of pieces of wisdom that people rely on or pick up, you know, around kind of dealing with that. But I also just know uncertainty can just be very threatening, right? Like, when there's so much out of our control, it really brings up a lot of threat and risk for people. And I think especially for people who may have experienced some kind of uncertainty, or chaos, or lack of control in their earlier life.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
It might make them kind of have a greater sensitivity to uncertainty in adulthood.
Katherine Hurtig:
OK, yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Because it kind of brings up the same feelings of threat, or fear, or this urgency to try to manage things.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, I think that's important for people to kind of be thinking about too in terms of like, some people will describe themselves as like, ‘I've always been a worry wart. I've always been trying to manage things and control things. And it goes back to time when I was a kid.’ And like, different kinds of childhood experiences sometimes.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
And I think sometimes it's helpful to kind of connect those dots a little bit just to look at where it's come from.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, it gives you a better understanding of why you respond to things the way you do.
Carmen Sadoway:
Exactly.
Katherine Hurtig:
And I guess, I mean, is it just a matter of practicing being OK? Like, just kind of sitting with the uncertainty? Like, ‘OK, I don't know what's going to happen, but when it happens, I'll handle it.’ Kind of thing?
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah, I think there is a certain benefit to, intentionally picking your moment, but to practice sitting with uncertainty and maybe not overdoing it with the trying to manage or trying to control. Like, give yourself the challenge of accepting what may come kind of thing.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
And also, maybe focusing on ways that you can calm your own nervous system, support those around you, right? Like there's, I think sometimes in some moments, practicing that makes a lot of sense. Validating why it's hard, right? Kind of coming at it from more of a compassionate validating perspective, rather than a fix it now one.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
We need flexibility to do all of these things. There's going to be times where it's going to be better to take some kind of action. And then there's going to be times where it's better to slow down.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Look after ourselves, look after other people around us.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, and speaking of looking after others, what can we do when we know that someone we care about is kind of dealing with anxiety?
Carmen Sadoway:
So even, I mean, because it's human, everyone will be faced with different kinds of anxiety and worry from time to time. And even if like, let's say you have a loved one who's doing this, overestimating the risk of something, or the danger of something, and underestimating their ability to cope. Even if you are not estimating the risk level to the same degree that they are, like your stepson, for instance.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
You might be thinking like, ‘It's going to be fine.’
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, we might not be estimating the same level of risk, but we can still validate their feelings. You know, like we might not have to totally agree with someone's perspective to still validate and have compassion about the feeling part of the anxiety.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah, we don't want to tell them that they're overreacting.
Carmen Sadoway:
No, absolutely.
Katherine Hurtig:
That never helps, ‘Calm down.’
Carmen Sadoway:
Exactly. And even if you don't understand where their anxiety is coming from, or if they're even having a puzzling experience of it and you're both kind of puzzled. Even if you can't figure out what has triggered it, you can still, again, tend to their feelings about it in kind of an emotional, physical way. And just ask them what they need from you in the moment as a support person. And the other thing I'll just say is if you have an idea, like sometimes people might come to you about like, ‘I'm dealing with this issue. It's causing a lot of stress and anxiety.’ You might have an idea of a way to shift a perspective or a way to approach a problem. It's just still generally a good rule of thumb to ask them if they would like to hear your ideas at that moment.
Katherine Hurtig:
Right.
Carmen Sadoway:
Or if they need some other kind of different support from you in the moment.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So again, asking for what they need. You can say, ‘I have an idea, but what do you, you know, how can I help you right now?’ Because otherwise, yeah, people don't want to have advice necessarily forced on them.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah. If listeners take away one message today about worry, anxiety, the difference between the two, how to kind of cope with them, what do you hope that takeaway is?
Carmen Sadoway:
I would say if there's a lot on your mind, or if there's just a diffuse sense of unease or anxiety, like feeling on edge, feeling nervous, vigilant. It's just like in a human way, it's just helpful to talk it through with somebody, whether that's a counsellor or a doctor, someone that you trust. And it might be worries in your mind, or a physical, or emotional feeling of anxiety. I would say it's what we were mentioning before, just try to bring a curiosity in a way that's maybe kind and compassionate to yourself. Because I just, I really think that's often better than... I think a lot of times that people end up being really hard on themselves for having anxiety.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
And that just sometimes makes it more painful.
Katherine Hurtig:
For sure, yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
So, if there's a way we can bring a, you know, a validation, a compassion, a curiosity towards it, we might—
Katherine Hurtig:
Rather than judgment.
Carmen Sadoway:
Rather than judgment, we might be able to better, kind of soften the experience of it generally. But also help ourselves figure out where is this coming from? And what is the anxiety kind of telling me at this moment? Or what do I need at the moment. So, I think I would say for people to kind of keep that in mind and it just helps to not just keep it inside. Talk to somebody about it.
Katherine Hurtig:
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway:
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig:
Thank you so much, Carmen.
Carmen Sadoway:
For sure.
Katherine Hurtig:
Definitely helped me understand anxiety a bit better today.
Carmen Sadoway:
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Katherine Hurtig:
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in. This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, Manuel Montano, Jenna Forbes, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Carmen Sadoway. Tune in on April 21st for our next episode. We'll be talking about AI and mental health.
Denis Sushkin:
It's a lot more nuanced than just, ‘Hey, this tool is here whenever I need it.’ And maybe that's the important thing to know. It is a tool. So, it's really like any other tool. It's not good or bad. It's how you use it. That's what makes it, like the context. Like, a screwdriver is a really good tool and there are good ways and bad ways to use it. A phone is a really good tool and there are good ways and bad ways to use it. I think it's how we use them. That's what's important.
Katherine Hurtig:
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favourite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling to anyone in Alberta with no waitlist and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com and counsellingalberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the U.S., seek help from your general medical practitioner.