Season 4, Episode 5: How laughter helps you cope with stress, grief, and hard days
Is it okay to laugh when things feel hard?
In this episode of Living Fully, we talk to psychologist Joel Zimmerman about humour and laughter as a coping strategy. He explains how laughter affects stress hormones, why it can calm your nervous system, and how it helps break up all-or-nothing thinking.
You’ll also hear about the balance between levity and sensitivity, how family and culture shape our comfort with humour, and how laughter can help us shift perspective.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully. Each episode is a chance to talk about mental health in a way that's simple, honest, and helpful. We'll share stories, tips, and tools to help you feel supported and feel your best. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
Today we're talking about humour, laughter, and joy, and why they matter so much for our mental health. I'm joined by counsellor Joel Zimmerman and we talk about what's happening in your brain and body when you laugh and how humour can support mental health by shifting perspective, regulating stress and creating connection.
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Joel, thank you for being back again. Always a great to chat with you on here.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, thank you for having me. This is one I look forward to talking about.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I'm really excited too because I talk with you guys a lot kind of about the heavier stuff, you know, we've talked about and anxiety and trauma and all these things. So, this is kind of a different angle. And I mean, it's definitely like laughter and humour and joy and that kind of thing. It's obviously a really important part of mental health.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, I think the frame today, maybe set the frame because I think set it up for me. Because when I think about what we're talking about here, you know, humour, the age-old adage, right?
Katherine Hurtig
Laughter is the best medicine. Yeah, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
So yeah, is that what we're talking about?
Katherine Hurtig
Totally. Yeah, yeah. I think it'll go lots of different directions. So, laughter, a sense of humour and kind of these things. How do you see them kind of fitting in in a mental health context?
Joel Zimmerman
I think there is, again, the notion in a mental health context. And I think when we talk about counselling and when we talk about general attitude, people are always unsure about what humour's role might be. They're in there, maybe they're tentative or they're hesitant and they're afraid that either they're going to do it wrong or that it sets the wrong tone or it's inappropriate. And that's stigma maybe that we can kind of start to shed light on. But yeah, it plays a part. It is humour and the ability to see and experience joy and laughter and all these things. These are just emotions. These are just parts of the human experience, just like sadness and grief. And so, they deserve equal weight at the table.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. And I don't know if you can speak to this, but from a physiological standpoint, What is happening when we find something really funny? What's happening inside our body?
Joel Zimmerman
So, lots of different things. Lots of different things. I think we can talk about the physiological aspects of this from kind of the brain chemistry that's going on. So, like neurotransmitters and hormones is the first one. Laughter releases and activates, just like any, again, emotional experience, releases and different neurotransmitters and hormones, the chemicals that exist in our body that serve purposes to activate us and do certain things in our body. So again, just like every emotion, good, positive things trigger things in our body. So, hormones like and neurotransmitters like endorphins. So those are like the feel good. Things that just make you feel good, they bind to opioid sites in our brain. So that's why opioids are powerful. They are a feel good kind of medicine. And so, endorphins kind of trigger that feeling. Dopamine, it's things that are rewarding, and that's kind of how we consider dopamine. It's like that reward chemical. Serotonin, kind of considered like a mood stabilizer, something that kind of helps us kind of bring down. It's kind of linked to calming. It plays a big part in sleep.
Katherine Hurtig
So, all those hormones are kind of activated?
Joel Zimmerman
Well, these are all happening, yeah. Oxytocin, also like really good for like the love. It's called like the love hormone or something. Yeah, it's like a big part of like feeling connected. Cortisol, it's like the stress hormone. That one kind of goes down or kind of gets kind of abates in these moments. So, all of these things chemically are happening. So, it's important to kind of understand that.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's super interesting.
Joel Zimmerman
But there's other things that are kind of happening where there is this incompatibility of if your physical body and laughter or joy, you're smiling, your muscles are contracting in a certain way, and the brain picks up on that. We call it kind of like bottom up processing where like our brain is looking at our body and saying that's how our body acts and feels when good things happen. We're like in positive situations and it makes the connection for us. You know, muscles are contracting like laughter. The muscles in your face are contracting as if you're smiling. The brain kind of gets tricked into it and going like, wait, this is how we feel when we're happy. It can be hijacked. We can use it to our advantage. But yeah, it's a really cool thing, they talk about the facial feedback loop. I think I've brought it up in the past. There's this experiment that they did where they asked people to rate, I think it was rate ambiguous pictures or situations, positive or negative, or happy or sad. And they asked people to rate these pictures so they think a good thing is happening or a bad thing is happening. And then they asked people to do the same thing with a pencil in their mouth, kind of biting like you would a horse, kind of biting a bit. And what it does is it forces you to use the muscles in your face as if you're smiling. There's like, what do they say? So many muscles in your face smiling. And so by holding this pencil in your mouth, like a horse holds a bit in its mouth, it forces your muscles to contract as if you're smiling. And they asked people to rate these pictures. And they found that when people were forcing a smile, essentially, they tended to rate the pictures more positively.
Katherine Hurtig
Really?
Joel Zimmerman
And so, it kind of created this idea of this facial feedback loop where like, if your face is physically smiling, your brain might get tricked into or thinking that you're smiling and therefore good things are happening and positivity are happening. So, humour creates that. If you're laughing and you're smiling, your brain is going to pick up on that. And then coming back to the endorphins, the dopamine, the serotonin, it's going to trigger all that more. And it's like a feeds back into itself. It's a feedback loop.
Katherine Hurtig
So, I could see that there would be situations that that would be a positive thing and maybe a not so positive thing. Like.
Joel Zimmerman
Well, appropriateness is always, you got to read the room.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, for sure. Well, I'm thinking like, you know, if you're going through a hard time, maybe if you do just kind of push yourself a bit to, to smile more or expose yourself to things that make you laugh.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. I think we should go back to that recognition that like laughter as a coping technique or humour as a coping technique. And I think the question is in any coping technique or coping mechanism, is it a healthy coping mechanism or is it not healthy coping? I think the first discussion that it's important to have is understanding when your humour is used as avoidance helping you get away from something rather than help you face it OK or the idea that when it's like when your humour is like self-deprecating it's like taking you down or taking other people down yeah like laughing at yourself in a light-hearted way or kind of being in on the joke and then and then timing. Right like I think socially most but like yeah is it appropriate in in general like you can, you're allowed to feel what you feel. But if you're laughing at the funeral, that's going to have consequences. And so you do have to be able to kind of, again, have some level of control about it, or at least some self-reflection to say, OK, like I'm feeling this way, but I, like, I recognize it's not the time or the place. So, I think the discussion, I think that what you're kind of getting at is like part of that, but I also, there's that, like, what do they call it? Like kind of that toxic positivity that I think kind of comes in.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
That's what I'm hearing you kind of ask about a little bit there.
Katherine Hurtig
A little bit, because I mean, I'm thinking it's a balance. You don't want to go one extreme to the other. If you're depressed and you're just avoiding it and pumping out the stand-up comedy specials and not really addressing, that's one thing. But if it's a temporary, maybe distraction or relief, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
So, I think there is something to be said about using, and maybe that's what we're talking about, like intention. and utilization, like using things that'll make you laugh. Like if you're down and you are trying to pick yourself up, watching the funny thing or doing the funny thing, you're, you are allowed to do that.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Right. And I think again, that this question, kind of the implied question that I'm hearing is like, well, if you're sad, are you allowed to try and make yourself happy? And if you are, are you avoiding or just not addressing a real issue?
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
So again…
Katherine Hurtig
It would be not necessarily.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. If it helps you address, I think one of the better kind of shifts is like understanding that maybe one of the things that laughter helps us do is it can help us pendulate into, and then provides a brief relief from maybe some distress. And again, when you're in distress, yeah, you might need to address some really hard stuff, but you know, the engine can't run on full throttle the whole time. It needs a break.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. And like you said, it, it does kind of lower that cortisol at some point.
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly. Right. So, these are things that are not meant to be on a hundred percent of the time. If you're in distress and those stress hormones, which are meant to be temporary, if they're active the entire time and they stay there, that's going to just make it harder. And it's going to be harsher on your body. Whereas, you know, taking a temporary relief. And I think what humour and laughter and the ability to do this doesn't deny that there is difficulty, sadness, challenge, worry, something that needs to be fixed. It doesn't deny that, but it breaks it up. It's like a rest note in the music, right? It can be really intense, but there can be a brief moment of respite so you can catch your breath and you can go right back into it, I think. So, like coming in and out of it, I think is one of the things that, that it kind of helps us do.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. I love standup comedy and it's definitely something that can kind of get me out of a slump or a bad mood. And I find, especially at this point in time, with the way the world is and how stressful it is to see all these things happening around the world, I'm coming to the terms of kind of holding different emotions at the same time.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
If that makes sense. Like being really disheartened and frustrated and scared and anxious, but also setting aside the time for these other feelings, for times for laughter.
Joel Zimmerman
Well, it's a both and perspective. This both sucks and we can talk about it or we can be OK about it. And one of the ways that we can talk about it, like I say, is through humour. Seeing the levity in a difficult situation, seeing the irony, seeing the contradiction. And that's, I think, one of the things that humour does is, you know, it reframes without denying. It allows us to both be in two places at once. It provides the ability to have some control. I think one of the fundamental things that humour and why comics, specifically comedians, are, they're all talking about serious stuff.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Like that's the joke is that nothing that they're talking about at face value is often funny. But what they're able to do is they're able to provide perspective. And also, it puts everybody in on the joke. It's a shared perspective that everyone goes, oh yeah, I feel that too. And that's funny that we're like, oh yeah, I've had that terrible experience happen to me and I'm not alone in it. So, it creates that connection and meaning. But perspective on the thing to be able to hold it and the choice to be able to see it as ridiculous or, you know, just, yeah, something is just ridiculous. So, it allows you to do both at the same time. And I think that's one of the things that it provides that framing to like do both.
Katherine Hurtig
I like what you said there, kind of like a feeling of being more in control.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, agency. Yeah. If you can laugh at something that is difficult, you are making a very deliberate choice.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Because it is contradictory. Something can be incredibly hard, and again, I'm not saying to not take it seriously. But see the insert humour, insert levity, insert lightness, insert irony. If you can see those things in the difficulty, that is a deliberate choice because you are choosing to focus on one over the other.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
Instead of just being consumed by the darkness, if you will.
Katherine Hurtig
And how do we do that without downplaying what we're going through, whatever that may be?
Joel Zimmerman
Well, again, I think it comes back to does it help you address it? Does it help you turn into it? Or is it a way that you're using to deflect and avoid it? So, does it help you talk about, see the thing, and do it easier? Or is it laughing it off and we're just not going to talk about it and move on. It's, ‘No, we're going to talk about it.’ And again, this is going to help us do that.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, and this part of it, I can see is kind of funny.
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly, this part of it. It reframes that, it provides agency and some control. It disrupts that catastrophic thinking again, or that just all or nothing idea of: is it all bad? If you can see the part of it that is funny, or the part of it that you can find some levity in, then it exists that there's a part of it that isn’t. So that disrupts that catastrophic thinking, it zooms out, it provides perspective that gives you distance. It puts you in an observer role, I think in a lot of ways, to humour. Again, laughter is like a social construct, it’s a communal shared meaning and it's a communication tool.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
So, I think that kind of helps do all those things.
Katherine Hurtig
And as someone who has dealt with depression and anxiety, and what is the term called, distorted thinking?
Joel Zimmerman
Cognitive distortion. Unhelpful thinking. Call it what you will.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. I mean one that was definitely my go-to back in the day was catastrophizing. I find that comedy, humour those kinds of things, does allow perspective. It's like, ‘Oh things aren't as serious as I'm making them out to be.’
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, exactly. And again, some of that even just comes from the observation of your own absurdity. Like when we are stuck in that all or nothing, black or white thinking. Like, ‘Oh my God, and then this terrible thing is going to happen.’
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And when we can point out, like, ‘Really, you're thinking that that's going to happen? Like, how many bad things have to happen before that happens? Like how absurd is it, how illogical?’ You know, to recognize that that's where your head goes and to be able to laugh at ourselves and go, ‘Oh, yeah.’
Katherine Hurtig
And like you said, and not like a self-deprecating way, but just like, ‘Hey, that's kind of silly.’
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's fantastical. It's absurd. The absurdism.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
There's a word that I'm looking for, when books and movies are taken to the extreme... surrealism. Surrealism?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
It's surreal, that you would think that that's going to happen to you. It's like, I don't know if I'm describing that very well, but there's something about it that I think breaks up that—
Katherine Hurtig
It does. Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
That type of thinking.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Something I'm curious about, we kind of talked about comedians, stand-up comics, that kind of thing. A lot of my favourites have talked about their own mental health, and I've found it to be kind of common that comedians, you know, people who use laughter...
Joel Zimmerman
Humour.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. To, I'm sure cope, but also spread joy to other people. They often deal with kind of mental health struggles.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. Like it's a common trope that all comedians are depressed.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Or have dealt with some tragedy or some terrible thing. And again, in research for doing this, it's a really, really common theme. Adam Sandler talks about it. So many, late Norm Macdonald, lots of comedians. And there's lots of media on this. There's lots of documentaries and stuff that highlight, again, in general, creativity sometimes does come from dark places.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
A lot of creatives in general are able to do this. I think a lot of comedians, not all of them are actors, but even writers, people that spend time engaging in the human experience, trained their skill in experiencing all of human experience, the good and the bad. And the full range of, and depth of, all the different types of emotions and the different ranges of those emotions. So, people who exist in these worlds, whether they're writing music, or writing a story, or writing a comic set, or writing a sitcom, they're trained to. And what they're doing is they're taking a singular human experience, the death of a loved one even, difficult situations. And they are viewing it through the entirety of the human experience lens. So that's a skill. And again, humour in general is kind of where a lot of this comes from. But that's what they're doing. That's what they're good at, is that they can see it from all perspectives. And it's not all bad. It's not all serious.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And once you kind of recognize that, then they share with other people. And you have to be able to do this. And then sharing it, again, I think is the communal nature of it. It's that we're all in this together.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I think it really does—It normalizes it so much.
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly. It's a shared experience. And humour and laughter, and we can speak about the sociological nature of this, that humour specifically is a communal communication tool. But we're all in this together and nobody gets out alive anyway. Right?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And so, when you take it too seriously, you're not taking life with the full potential of the experience that it can't be all bad. And if it is all serious and bad the entire time, you're missing the point. The joke is that we all end up in the same place at the end of this ride.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And, you know, you have to be able to do something with it on your way there, I think.
Katherine Hurtig
Let's talk about that. Like humour is something that connects us. And you said a communication tool.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. So, I think the one that always comes to mind is that chimpanzees when they fight, they laugh and they smile. So like, smiling is one of the common ways that we understand the evolutionarily benefit of a smile. It's submissive.
Katherine Hurtig
OK.
Joel Zimmerman
It's where I'm showing teeth to kind of lighten the mood, to say like, ‘I'm not a threat to you.’
Katherine Hurtig
Oh, OK.
Joel Zimmerman
So like, baring your teeth. But smiling is like trying to laugh it off saying, ‘I'm not trying to kill you. I'm not trying to hurt you. So don't hurt me back.’ And so, when chimps fight, they laugh and they smile.
Katherine Hurtig
For that purpose?
Joel Zimmerman
For that purpose, to say like, ‘Don't hurt me. I'm not trying to take this too seriously.’ Dogs sneeze, right? I don't know if anyone's ever witnessed when two dogs fight, they'll do kind of this like, cough, sneezy thing when they're really energetic.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And it's their version of like, ‘Hey, let's not take this too seriously.’
Katherine Hurtig
Nice.
Joel Zimmerman
And so, animals have this like, ‘Hey, let's not take this too seriously,’ way of communicating with each other to say, ‘Hey, I'm just joking.’
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And we have verbal eyes to say like, ‘Hey, that's just a joke.’ You know, like that nervous laughter, we're doing it right now.
Katherine Hurtig
Oh, I love that. I didn't know that about dogs. I’m trying think back.
Joel Zimmerman
Listen to it. You'll hear it next time. It's also co-regulation, I think is the other good one.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
When we're both like, if I'm OK, you're OK. Especially if we're in a difficult situation and you see like, ‘Oh, they're calm. OK. Then maybe I can be calm too. Maybe.’
Katherine Hurtig
Love it. Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And laughter is again, another piece of that. When you're attuned with each other. When you're not and it's like, ‘What are you laughing at? This isn’t funny.’
Katherine Hurtig
Right, it’s not always going to work.
Joel Zimmerman
Then it's that we're missing kind of the point.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
But ideally, again, I think what comics tie into, why music, and art, and literature connect with us, is because it gives the opportunity for shared meaning. Is that we can all be in on it. We all understand, ‘Oh, what I've experienced individually, I'm not alone in it. Other people have done it too.’ And I think comedy and humour helps us do that.
Katherine Hurtig
And so, what about those times when there's a disconnect in that communication?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Like, there's not the shared humour, or you’re like, ‘I'm just joking,’ but that doesn't go over well. You know, how do you, I don't know, to use a counsellor term: repair those relationships.
Joel Zimmerman
Well, see, understanding when it's not helpful, I think is important. So, like listening, you know, read the room. Being aware of what happens right after your humour. You know, if you get crickets, right?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
You know, that's a sign, right? Like, if no one's laughing. And we're going to watch a comic go on stage and...
Katherine Hurtig
And bomb.
Joel Zimmerman
Right. Or I read a joke. Yeah. Seth Meyers and Jon Stewart do this really well. It's like when they read a joke that like, they didn't write, they're just reading what their writers wrote, and no one laughs and they go, ‘Alright.’ Like clearly that was not funny and that's OK. And you have to be able to kind of take that.
Katherine Hurtig
And learn from it and move on.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. I think, you know, again, if it’s helping you approach or avoid, I think is important. Obviously if you've said something that you tried to play off as a joke or you saw the humour in that landed poorly, I think it is your responsibility to say like, ‘Oh that was unintentional and that's unfortunate.’ When it's the other direction, I think when someone is trying to make light of a situation and you're not there, or you're not ready, or you find it inappropriate, I think it is important to name it and be like, that felt uncomfortable for me. Use curiosity, saying something like, ‘I think you're trying to be funny there.’ And giving them an out to be able to say like, I don’t think you’re trying to be rude.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
I see what you’re trying to do there, kind of naming the intention, like, ‘I see that you’re trying to make light of the situation, I don’t think you’re trying to be rude about it. I’m just not there right now. And I appreciate what you’re trying to do.’ And kind of giving them that out to say, I don’t think that’s what your intention was to be glib.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, because I mean intention is important.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, and I see you weren’t trying to be rude about this but I'm just not there right now. And I think that's fair to say to somebody. Counselling does this in general. We are talking about the thing that people don't want to talk about. And sometimes people come to counselling to hear the voice or get the piece of the discussion that they're not getting elsewhere. So, the most common example, and I think that when reflecting on doing this podcast today, and thinking about, yeah, where does that come from? I think is when someone comes in and they tell me their horrific story of just the thing, after thing, after thing. And I'm sitting there, and I'm watching, and listening to these people's stories, and I'm like, ‘My God.’ Like, you fell out of the tree and hit every branch down kind of story.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And I know that everybody in their life is going, ‘Oh, that's so terrible. I'm so sorry.’ And, you know, I hear that story and I go, ‘That sucks.’ And that's what we get. And that's exactly it. And they're like, ‘Yeah, right?’ So that's like, am I being funny? Or am I just saying the thing that not everybody is saying or something?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Joel Zimmerman
I don't know what it is, but it's just like, it's a relief that, ‘Oh, you get it.’ Right?
Katherine Hurtig
Totally
Joel Zimmerman
Because like in their mind, you can only see like, ‘Oh, I'm so sorry that happened. Oh, that must be so hard for you.’
Katherine Hurtig
I know, people want to address it in a delicate way.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
But yeah, you are just missing like..
Joel Zimmerman
It's like, ‘That's crazy. I can't believe that. Like, what?’
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And they're like, ‘I know, right?’ And they laugh.
Katherine Hurtig
Well, and like, in that moment, they feel understood.
Joel Zimmerman
Heard, seen, connected, right? This person gets me.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And so again, if you can do that with people and if you can do that with yourself, there's that bridge, that bond, that connection that says, ‘I got you.’ Or like, ‘I understand this, and it's funny.’
Katherine Hurtig
OK.
Joel Zimmerman
So yeah, like trying to find the humour in something. Again, I think coming back to whether it's forced. Like again, that idea of toxic positivity, somebody coming up to you and saying, ‘Just laugh. Just smile more. You can just think positively.’
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
That's coercion. That's forcing it on you as opposed to it's my choice on how to see that. And that's my lived reality, and I'm allowed to kind of do that. Again, appropriate versus inappropriate in social situations matters. So, I'm never going to tell someone to laugh it off. But if I can help them figure out how to do that for themselves, that's different. All of that is what goes into it. But it's a recurring theme. Like, humour provides perspective. And perspective, I think, is really that helpful tool. But yeah, is it helping you approach this? Or is it helping you avoid it and deflect it? I think there's a couple elements that we're talking about here. Like on one hand, I think the question: how do you find more joy in life or more humour in life? You know, what do you do when it's inappropriate or when you feel like humour is being used inappropriately in your life, either towards you, or by you, or somebody else is kind of using it inappropriately. We kind of talked a little bit about that, kind of that toxic positivity or somebody not taking something seriously that you want taken seriously. Those are fair. You know, if we are trying to use more humour I think there is this idea of, if you are trying you can't just go into every situation guns blazing and expect that to work. So, like testing the waters, like is this a safe person or place to try and be a little bit more glib, or a little bit more sarcastic, or a little bit more funny?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Is it a low stakes situation? Are we talking about something that's kind of—maybe this is, again, contradictory, is that humour is this thing that lets us do things, lets us say things, and lets us attempt things that are difficult because I think it provides a break. It provides a relief. It provides a pause, distance, perspective, all the things that we're saying. And it's hard to capture that in an algorithm. It's hard to say what does that.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And again, like humour has been, has been studied. There are different types of jokes, subversion and comparison. There is a math to this. There is a science to humour, whether it's biological, like we're talking about, or kind of social or cultural, or just like the way that communication works. But again, maybe it is the intangibleness of it. And it's like, that we all understand that there's this thing that we can do that does something, that filters difficulty in our world through.
Katherine Hurtig
Do you think there's some things we just can't joke about?
Joel Zimmerman
That's the ultimate question.
Katherine Hurtig
And I guess it's just so subjective.
Joel Zimmerman
It is.
Katherine Hurtig
Because with a lot of people, like if they are going through something tragic for some, it's like, ‘No, we can never go down that road, around this subject.’ And for some people it's very helpful.
Joel Zimmerman
I think that's an important point. I mean, I think the most common understanding around can you joke about anything is it's all in the timing. Like, there's a time that kind of has to pass. There's a perspective. Who are you in relation to that joke, right? Someone telling a racially charged joke sounds different depending on their perspective on it and their participation in it. I think again, one of the common understandings of some humourists is that we're usually talking about like, how we deal with tragedy and with difficulty, and there are lots of examples of that in culture. And it's so serious but like, using humour to deal with and cope with things because you got to experience it some way so you can laugh about it, or you can cry about it, the choice is yours.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And that's kind of I think where some of the general concepts of people who use humour to cope, I think it does come from they got to deal with it some way. And why not this way? What's the alternative?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. You brought up the idea of culture within humour a few times. So yeah, culture, family, gender, like do these influence or shape how comfortable people feel with using humour?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. So, I think there's two components to this. One of them is just in general, when it comes to how we were raised. Everybody learned the rules from somewhere, and whether they learned them explicitly, someone was told, ‘Don't talk about that. Don't joke about that.’ Or when there was humour or levity, what happened around the family table when someone tried to crack a joke? Was it laughed off? Was it taken seriously? Did it open more conversations? Everyone learns these rules and you can kind of ask yourself, like, ‘What was humour's role in my family? Was it an avoidance tactic or was it used to swallow the difficult thing?’ That's one thing. Culturally speaking, there is a notion of expression versus containment, which is different than avoidance. Is humour an expressive component or is it something that helps you express what we're trying to do? Or is it a containment, something that helps you contain what we're trying to do? I think that's important. Culturally, humour lands differently and is used differently.
Katherine Hurtig
When you talked about learning the rules and how we grew up, it makes me think of the family I'm in now. So, I've been with my husband, oh wow, 14 plus years now. And it took me a while to kind of get in the groove with his family.
Joel Zimmerman
Oh, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Because I learned over the years that, yeah, they make fun of each other a lot. They make fun of me. And that took me a while to get comfortable with and realize that that's like, a love language almost.
Joel Zimmerman
It can be.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. When used appropriately and everyone's in on the joke and everyone's OK with it.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure.
Joel Zimmerman
Absolutely. And that's the split, right? And that's where conflict does come in, where it's like, my humour and your humour are not the same.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And again, there's types of humour and there's types of jokes. But yeah, I think that's a perfect example of what it takes to be flexible.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And recognize that when someone is just joking—this goes on both sides—when someone is just joking, you are both allowed to say, ‘Yeah, but that's not OK for me.’ And also learn to get in on it.
Katherine Hurtig
Oh yeah, I've had to do that on both sides.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, it’s so hard.
Katherine Hurtig
There are some things where I'm like, ‘No, I'm going to stand my ground here.’
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
But then I've also tried to be a lot more adaptable and realize, ‘Hey, what they're saying here, they're not fundamentally putting me down.’
Joel Zimmerman
Right, exactly.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
So, you have to be able to be authentic to yourself and trust yourself. But again, it breeds and is helpful to this idea of self-reflection and cognitive flexibility. Can you trust that pause, and give yourself a second, and ask yourself, ‘What just happened in me?’ If someone cracked a joke at me and I'm like, ‘That was deeply offensive to me.’ And like, I'm noticing myself getting now so worked up, and feeling so offended, and being able to say like, ‘What just happened in me here?’
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
Like, is this person actually out to get me or is this my friend and he's poking at me? Yeah, he's poking at a vulnerability that I have. There's that vulnerability you spoke of.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And I'm not OK with it. And that's on me. Like, I'm not OK with the fact that you just, you know, poked at my weight or something. Because my weight's kind of a sensitive issue and I haven't quite dealt with that. And I'm actually a little insecure about that because I'm not working out enough as I want to be. And like, that's on me, right? And I have to be able to discern or discriminate, ‘Oh, but they don't think bad about me. I'm just thinking about bad about me.’
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And again, humour, and again, the relation that it helps us have two problems, difficulties, challenges—there's that perspective, that cognitive flexibility that we've been talking about—that lets you now do that and kind of have that. Whereas, if you get stuck in it and you're just stuck in the difficulty, then yeah, it's not going to be funny.
Katherine Hurtig
Joel, I love this conversation. You always get me to think of things in new ways and open different perspectives. So, thanks.
Joel Zimmerman
I think, yeah, this was a fun one.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Thank you.
Katherine Hurtig
Loved it. Thank you.
...
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in. This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, Manuel Montano, Jenna Forbes, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Joel Zimmerman. Tune in on March 24th for our next episode. We'll be talking about AI and mental health, what these tools can be used for, the risks, and the human connection needed for mental health support.
...
Yeah, it's a lot more nuanced than just, hey, this tool is here whenever I need it.
Denis Sushkin
And maybe that's the important thing to know. It is a tool. So, it's really like any other tool. It's not good or bad. It's how you use it. That's what makes the context. Like, a screwdriver is a really good tool and there are good ways and bad ways to use it. A phone is a really good tool and there are good ways and bad ways to use it. I think it's how we use them. That's what's important.
Katherine Hurtig
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favourite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully Podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling to anyone in Alberta with no wait list and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com and counsellingalberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the U.S., seek help from your general medical practitioner.