Season 3, Episode 6: The Mindset Shift: Turning Challenges into Opportunities
How we think about challenges, setbacks, and our own abilities can shape the way we navigate life. In this episode, psychologist Joel Zimmerman joins us to talk about the power of a growth mindset—what it is, why it matters, and how shifting the way we view failures can have a major impact on our mental well-being.
We explore why it’s so easy to focus on the negative when things go wrong and how small mindset shifts can make a big difference. Joel talks about learning from failure, embracing change, and finding opportunities to grow—even in difficult situations. Learn about the connection between mindset and self-compassion and practical strategies for developing a healthier perspective on setbacks.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully. Each episode is a chance to talk about mental health in a way that's simple, honest, and helpful. We'll share stories, tips, and tools to help you feel supported and feel your best. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
Mindset. It's one of those things we hear about all the time, but what does it really mean? And why is it so important for our mental health? In this episode, I sit down with psychologist Joel Zimmerman to explore how the way we think about challenges, setbacks, and even ourselves can shape the way we navigate life. We'll talk about why it's so easy to focus on the negative when things go wrong, how small mindset shifts can make a big difference, and why celebrating effort and progress matters more than perfection. Joel also shares practical tips for learning from failure, embracing change, and finding opportunities to grow. even when life feels tough.
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I am here with Joel Zimmerman. Hello.
Joel Zimmerman
Hello again.
Katherine Hurtig
Welcome back. And today we're going to be talking about our mindset and how kind of shifting the way that we, you know, view failures and challenges and kind of see them as more opportunities for growth, how that can have, you know, really powerful impact on our mental health and the way we navigate life.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, absolutely. I love this topic. I really do. This idea of like a growth mindset. Yeah. I'm all about this.
Katherine Hurtig
Excellent. So to start, can you kind of share like what this idea of mindset with that term, what it means to you and why it's such an important part of our mental health?
Joel Zimmerman
Well, I think for a lot of reasons, I mean, this was what I was trying to kind of boil down in summary, but I mean, life is full of ups and downs. There's no question about it, right? So life is going to have wins and losses. There are going to be times where everything is going well and times where it's not. So how you think about those moments is inherently important. And why I think it's important to kind of take that one step further and have, again, like this idea of like a growth mindset or an opportunity to see opportunity from things is because, you know, in every opportunity where there's like a win, you still want to be humble. You want to be able to kind of say, hey, that was great, but is there something I can learn from this? You know, and what can I do better next time? You know, and still accept the win and take a win. And then in your losses, you still want to be, you need to have that perspective that like, okay, that was difficult, but maybe there's something that I can learn or there's something else. So there's that perspective of there's going to be, there's going to be other opportunities or I have to take something from this.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
So how you see one of those or two of those things, I mean, is, is, is going to have all the difference in I think how you handle life's ups and downs.
Katherine Hurtig
And in your work, have you found that it's kind of difficult or like not instinctual for people to have that kind of mindset?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, I think there's a lot of intuitive nature to focus on challenges and like to focus on the things that go bad. Because the things that go bad are, they're loud. They're in your face. Things aren't going well. And it's, on one hand, that's really healthy because, you know, you have to start somewhere. Like you have to be able to acknowledge, okay, that didn't go well. You have to be able to take responsibility where that's appropriate. You have to be able to let go of responsibility or say that wasn't in my control.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
Where appropriate. And so, yeah, it's a decision-making process that people have to go through. I think about like how, yeah, like what kind of mindset you have to how you see these things.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, what perspective you're going to take.
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly so it's not inherent to like have a growth mindset I think it's something that you have to work on really hard and people who develop them you know take it develops over time and it develops through challenging situations and it develops through the ability to get through something and even the most terrible tragedy and be able to look back on that in some way and say I took something from this.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
It's really hard to do in the moment. Nobody when they lose somebody or lose something or a terrible no one wants to hear about the silver linings, nobody…
Katherine Hurtig
No, for sure.
Joel Zimmerman
It's one of those things that you're only really going to see down the road and it might not be immediately down the road it might be a long time down the road.
Katherine Hurtig
I'm sure yeah we're going to get into this but it's something that that can apply I mean in little challenges like okay I got uh I was driving to work and I got cut off… well so like what can you learn from that…
Joel Zimmerman
No, but absolutely, like it's it's how it's how the little things affect you and how the big things affect you like it's translatable 100%
Katherine Hurtig
When you said you know you can use this even like during tragedy and it made me think of I have a friend who, I think a little over a year ago her five or six year old was diagnosed with cancer. And watching how she's responded to that has been pretty incredible because I mean that's the worst thing that could happen to a parent but how she's how she's handled that and how she has shifted perspective on so many things has been really incredible I'm not saying like yeah and it's how we talk about it because it's not like we're saying you know, just put on a happy face or anything, but it's just…
Joel Zimmerman
Well, that's the challenge with this kind of mindset is that people do misattribute it in a couple of different ways, right? On one hand, it can look like, oh, what's the silver lining and just, you know, suck it up kind of thing or just put on a happy face and it'll be okay.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
That's not what we're talking about. No. And it's also like, we're not saying that if you can't or don't have a mindset that allows you to grow from adversity or, or have resilience, that we're not saying that if you don't do those things, that something's wrong with you.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
Because a lot of people also say like, like they beat themselves up in that situation too, where they think that, I don't know, something that you, if you're not coming out of this hardship with resilience and something's wrong with you. And we're not saying that. And we're not saying that, you know, you just put on a happy face and there's a silver lining to every cloud.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
That's not what this is. But there is a difference that comes across where people experience any difficulty, whether it's the smallest thing you spill your coffee on the way to work or the big loss.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
There are some people who are able to move on from that relatively easily with some sense of growth. And there are some people who get beaten down by that tiny or large incident. And there's a difference between those people in some way and what they know, how they experience the world, some level of their perspective.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So how can we work on building up that skill? Like when we run into challenges, life takes an unexpected turn. How can we kind of adjust the way we think about it so that it isn't like kind of, you know, end of the world?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. Well, I think that's part of it is we can't jump to these conclusions. Because like the initial kind of stage that happens when bad things happen to us or when there's setbacks or challenges is to panic. It is scary, or there is an initial hit on us. Yeah. And when that happens, our brains don't work correctly. So when we're in a state of panic or when we're in a state of getting worked up, we're not thinking as clearly as we can. And when we say things like, it's never going to get any better, or this always happens to me, or this is all my fault, right? These are really easy things for us to say in our mind, but they're logical fallacies. They're not actually 100% true. They're trying to predict a future. We don't have a crystal ball. They're making an overgeneralization or they're overemphasizing, like I say, your responsibility in something. And so in those moments, kind of the way that you talk to yourself matters. So the initial shift really does come from pausing for a second and giving yourself some time to not panic and to slow down and to kind of give yourself a moment to process, okay, what's actually going on? Because the second that you start thinking like, oh my God, this is never going to change or bad things are going to keep happening to me, we start making these assumptions that are not actually true. They're just fallacies. They're just euphemisms that we tell ourselves in our head that make a lot of sense. But when you believe them, like this always happens to me or, you know, when you believe them, they can start to be really problematic. So it really starts with slowing yourself down and kind of checking kind of how you're talking to yourself, I think, is a great place to start.
Katherine Hurtig
That makes me think of like some of my own experiences in therapy where we used cognitive behavioral therapy. And yeah, just kind of thinking of like if you have kind of an automatic negative thought, just thinking of alternatives.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, it is a pretty cognitive way of thinking. I'm a fairly cognitive therapist, so I don't apologize for bringing that in here. But I think it matters.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
It also kind of has to do, yeah, just with how we, yeah, like the perspective that we take on a lot of things and the decisions that we make. A good example I think about is what we call like locus of control or how you think about your responsibility, the level of controllability you have to a situation. Right. So we don't actually, we don't think about this too often, right? We don't really think about how much control that I actually have of that situation. And the kind of maybe going back to your first question, like what is really the impact of this that this has on our mental health? It has to do with, again, when people correctly and sometimes incorrectly attribute their amount of control in something.
Katherine Hurtig
Do you have an example?
Joel Zimmerman
I have lots of examples. Yeah. So, again, so like in general, the theory is that like when, let's say when something bad happens to you and, you know, how much control did you actually have that situation? how much of it was outside of your control. In general, if you take too much responsibility and control for something that you had no control over, you're going to have a bad time, right? If you think that was all my fault and actually it was at best 50% and you're going to beat yourself up for something that you had no control over. It rained on your wedding day and you're like, oh, I shouldn't have picked this date. It's like, how could you have possibly known? Like, yeah, there are some general dates, you know, and seasons with which things happen. So you can get close, you can give yourself the best chance, but you're only going to get so much control over that.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And the opposite happens too, when you, um, take no responsibility, no control over something that actually you should be taking responsibility and control over. I'm never going to get a job. I shouldn't bother. I'm just, I'm not even going to fill out the application. Well, of course, you're not going to get a job. You don't fill out the application. How you present yourself in a resume and in the interview matters. It doesn't matter a hundred percent, but it's going to matter some amount. So if you take that into consideration appropriately, that's going to help you kind of have a growth mindset and kind of achieve things in a different way that if you kind of misattribute your level of control over something, you take too much responsibility for something that's not yours, or you don't take enough responsibility for something that you probably should, that's where people get themselves in trouble. And that's where people have a lot of difficulties sometimes.
Katherine Hurtig
That's really interesting. I didn't really think about that when like kind of mulling over this idea of growth mindset is that that idea of responsibility.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, and control. And so why I think this is where I think this ties into like a growth mindset is for hardships. So something bad happens, a difficulty, a loss. It's really easy to misattribute how much control you have over that situation. Because if you say, oh, there's nothing I could have done about that, but there was, are you going to be able to grow and learn from that?
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
So if you don't get the job, you go to the job interview and you don't get the job and you say, well, it's, there's nothing I could have done about that. It's like, well, how did you show up in the interview? You know, what was your level of participation in the interview? Did you study? Did you prepare? How did you present yourself? How did you show up? What were you wearing? That does matter. It doesn't matter a hundred percent.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
But you at least have to be able to look at yourself and say, okay, you know what? There was something that I could have done.
Katherine Hurtig
And I guess like either way, you don't want to go to extreme or the other there. Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
You can, cause you can, yeah, exactly. You can again, take, this is the question that I ask people is like, so take the job, the job interview, for example. And I say, you don't get a job interview. How much control, how much is that about you percentage wise? How much control?
Katherine Hurtig
Like if you're applying for a job.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. How much can you guarantee that you have, that, that your ability is going to land you the job? Could you give me, what do you think it is?
Katherine Hurtig
Oh, I don't know. Like 20%.
Joel Zimmerman
So, so 20%, so only 20%. Yeah. So what are some reasons that you think about if you don't get the job, what are some reasons that you would consider about why you didn't get the job?
Katherine Hurtig
That don't have to do with me?
Joel Zimmerman
Well, that's, so there's, so you've highlighted a point that some people, when they answer that question, they'll say, well, my resume wasn't good enough. I wasn't qualified enough. I didn't speak clearly enough and they didn't like me. So they're going to give answers that are all about them.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
But what about the other side of the equation?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Like the whole bigger picture. I think about that because I mean, we've had, we've had summer students here that have worked with us and I have to look at, you know, 50 different resumes and yeah, like to the one person, it's like, oh, you know, I wasn't good enough, but it's like, no.
Joel Zimmerman
What are all those reasons that are not about you? Right. Like, yeah, you could have been the number two candidate and somebody was a slightly more qualified. Now that is a little bit about you, but we could even go further and say, well, what are the reasons that have nothing to do with you?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
You know, you, you know, the, the interviewer had seen a hundred people already and you were the last one to show up in the day. And no matter how good you were, they stopped listening or they spilled coffee on themselves on their way and they weren't in a good mood or, you know, you're my favorite one. Your name is the same name as their ex-partner. They weren't going to hire you. Right. So it's like,
Katherine Hurtig
That's so out of your control.
Joel Zimmerman
And again, you can do everything right and still some things don't go your way. And I think that's where a growth mindset is important because if you see that loss, it's like, Oh, that was all about me or screw them or whatever we're going to kind of say that gets us in trouble instead of saying, okay, what was in my control and what was not in my control. Did I do the best that I could with my 50%? I did everything I could. Am I going to take over more responsibility than necessary for the things that are not? No, I can leave that where it is. And I can say, okay, well, this is what I do need to do better about how I showed up. Did I prepare myself enough? Did I answer the questions best, you know, to the best of my ability? That's where growth mindset starts. And again, that means that something had to happen that was negatively impacting you. It wasn't, didn't go well. And you have to be able to say, okay, you know, what can I take from this and what is mine to hold? And that's that, that you have to, you have to be able to be a little self-critical. You have to be able to like, look at yourself. So it's hard to do.
Katherine Hurtig
And understanding the things that are out of your control, is that in terms of a growth mindset, is that more about being more self-compassionate or…?
Joel Zimmerman
so it's about like being a little bit realistic and it does take some time to not make snap judgments about this. It does take that time to sit down and think about this because we don't, you know, you could do this. If you're listening to this right now, you could do this exercise for yourself. Ask yourself, you know, if you didn't get a job, why didn't you get the job? And, you know, come up with 50 answers and then go through those answers and look at them. How many of them are about you and how many of them are not? And it's difficult to have that creativity to remind yourself that some things are not about you. So on one hand, it's, it actually is about just, these are things that we take for granted. We don't stop and think about these things. Our mind works very fast. So not even from a cognitive lens, it's just that idea that as humans, we make snap judgments. We do base things on past experiences. If that has happened 10 times before and everybody was telling you, you suck and it's because of you. Yeah, it's going to be hard to kind of break away from that. That's going to be the first thing that jumps into your mind. The trick is to ask yourself, okay, what's the second thing that jumps into your mind, right? So part of this is just having, you know, somebody or a place to reflect on this and actually think a little bit realistically and, and, um, with a little bit of perspective, right. Getting outside of your own head, getting some additional perspective maybe from somebody else. Um, but yeah, you bring up self-compassion, you bring up, you know, I think the, the trick again, going into, into spectrums is that we never want to be too much on the other side, right. On one hand, we need to have some compassion for ourselves and some level of like, okay, it's okay that you didn't get it. But we also have to be able to tell the difference between that and like, I don't even know what the word is, but compliance, like a laissez-faire attitude. Like, oh, it's like whatever.
Katherine Hurtig
And letting yourself off the hook.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, letting yourself off the hook too easily is just as problematic, right?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I guess, I mean, if we're going to, like continuing with the job thing, just having more of that self-compassion, like it's not, I guess, more of that internal talk. Like I didn't get the job. I don't, I'm not really going to know the exact reason, but it could be, you know, X, Y, Z. And I didn't have control over these.
Joel Zimmerman
Right. And you can't get into the place where if you were showing up dressed in an inappropriate way.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. I did everything I could to prepare.
Joel Zimmerman
Right. But you can't go about this thinking like, oh, it's fine. Like it's not, They just suck.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Like that's not a growth mindset either.
Katherine Hurtig
No, no, totally.
Joel Zimmerman
You have to be able to kind of take that responsibility. So again, and even in wins, right? Again, I think it's important to have that growth mindset in both wins and losses, right? Like, you know, even when things go really, really well, you might be tempted to kind of think, I know everything and I do everything right.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Whereas, again, that little perspective of like, I did everything right, but I want to still be able to grow. I want to still be able to say I'm not the smartest person in the room. I'm not, I haven't stopped learning. Yeah. And I think that's where this really comes from too, is like the beginner's mind or the student's mind.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
This growth mindset keeps you humble and it allows you to continue growing. Like it allows you to keep building and never really become complacent in that growth. That idea of, I think a growth mindset provides you, yeah, in wins, it keeps you humble to know that there are, uh, that you can still grow and there's something that you can learn from that. And in your losses, it gives you perspective that you can learn from this and there's something else that you can grow from this and take on to the next thing. It presupposes the idea that there is something next.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Um, which again is even sometimes not true necessarily. Um, but there is something next, right? You might not get another opportunity like this one, but you can learn something from that.
Katherine Hurtig
And take it to whatever is…
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, exactly. So there's humility in your wins and perspective in your losses, I think.
Katherine Hurtig
That is a good soundbite. Yeah. Humility in the wins and perspective in losses. I like that. You mentioned this in the beginning, but why is it that it feels easier to focus on, focus on the negative, focus on what didn't go right?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. No, I think that's a really important kind of recognition is that you have to start somewhere. It comes back, I'm going to link everything back to this idea of like what you can control and what your responsibility is. If when bad things happen, to a healthy degree, you have to be able to say, what about that was me? What in that was in my control? that can become very overpowering and can run amok when not put in check, when it develops into this idea that it's all about you and it's all your fault, essentially. So it is inherently important for us to focus on the challenges and on the losses, because where else are you going to start? If you're trying to improve, you have to know where the faults are, where the screw ups were, what you can tweak. So it is also about perfectionism and that ability to kind of recognize that it's never, you know, you're never complete. You know, Tiger Woods golfing takes criticism from his coaches. You know, multiple career wins and, you know, and lots of athletes and professionals in their worlds do need to regularly look at themselves and say, what can I be doing better? But the second that that grows to an inappropriate or an unhealthy way, then they're getting beaten down by it.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
So it does make sense to focus on it.
Katherine Hurtig
That feels like a fine balance.
Joel Zimmerman
It is a fine balance. But it is the place that you have to start. Your question is why does that seem like that's the, because that's the natural place to start. You have to start with like what's not going well.
Katherine Hurtig
Is part of it also a biological like survival thing?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Like I think about the idea of like anxiety comes to mind. It's like, you know, the, you know, being hunted by a lion or… evolutionary. That's what I was thinking about.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. From an evolutionary standpoint, there is advent, it is advantageous to see potential harm.
Katherine Hurtig
Yes.
Joel Zimmerman
To see how your actions could have killed you. There is benefit to that. You have to be able to say, oh, if, if, if, you know, if you have a narrow escape and you say, wow, that was stupid. And you say, the next thing better out of your mouth better be, I shouldn't do that again. Yeah. Like that's, that's evolutionarily advantageous because you learn something from that.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
If you get yourself into that situation and go, oh, I suck. I'm terrible. I'm never going to be able to learn, you know, I'm never, it's, it's, or, or, or even worse, it cripples you and says, I can't, I can never go outside again. I can never do that thing again. Yeah. Because I, again, I'm still unable to learn from this. I'm not able to say, okay, how can I do this better next time? That is evolutionarily disadvantageous. So yeah, absolutely. There is, it is, it is a, yeah, an evolutionary advantage to be able to, A, focus on the things that might have essentially killed you. Because all of that evolutionary piece does come back to, will this kill me? And unfortunately, we live in a world where we don't have that same level of stakes involved in what we're doing, right? Like the stressors of, the unfortunate thing is the stressors of sitting in traffic or somebody cutting you off are triggering the same animal instincts in our brain that says I almost got eaten by a lion.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
But there is no lion.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Our brains were wired for a very deadly world.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And the biological and evolutionary benefit of the stressors in our life triggering those things were built for a different world that we don't live in. But our brains don't know that yet. It hasn't caught up where our world is different, but we're still experiencing the same levels of stress and of challenge. We see these things as life-threatening. When you don't get a job, it's like, oh, my gosh, what's going to happen? Because, yeah, theoretically you lose your job, you run out of money, you can't feed yourself, you don't have shelter, you might be in the elements and yada, yada, yada, yada. It might harm your physical health. There are a lot of steps that have to happen before that, but that's how people think. People jump to assumptions.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
So I come back to that idea of like, don't panic, take a second, because it's not wrong to think this is bad for your health, but it's not bad for your health right now.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Like the immediacy of this is what we're trying to challenge and kind of slow down and say, yeah, that might happen. What do you need to do so that that doesn't happen? Do you have time to do that? Can we think that through? That's where these mindsets and we have the luxury of talking about mindsets because this wasn't a lion. This was spilled coffee or this was, you know, your boss reaming you out or, again, somebody else's a loss in your life. You know, these things impact us, but our brains are set to the extreme sometimes.
Katherine Hurtig
So Joel, what is, what is the difference and how can we kind of move towards this? Like seeing a mistake, um, like seeing it as kind of the end of the road versus seeing it as part of the process.
Joel Zimmerman
I think there's a lot of factors to this. I think one of them, especially with, we're dealing with children and young people and parents and their children, something between, something about the difference between like outcome and effort. I think outcome and effort are an important distinction to kind of ask yourself, like, what are we measuring? So why I think that's important is because some things are very outcome-based. Like the measure of success is like, did you win or lose? Did you get it or did you not?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And you're allowed to, and we do need to set those kinds of metrics for ourselves sometimes. That being said, was the effort of value in itself? Was there, you know, was there effort? Right. Was there value in just putting the effort to get there, whether you win or lose or not? So I think one of the shifts I think that can benefit people a lot is recognizing that both of those things have inherent value. Sometimes people get stuck on the outcome because that's maybe you could it's easy to say that's how you were raised. Or again, it's what you're seeing. Did you get the job or not? You know, again, I keep coming back to the workforce on this and that's definitely not the only way to kind of see this, but it's an easy kind of analogy to draw. But, you know, the effort that you took to get there to prepare for whatever you're doing has some value. So if you're able to kind of separate a little bit from the outcome and say, okay, I didn't get the outcome. Can I look at my effort and say what could have improved or what is in my control or not? Going back to that discussion. Yeah. But also, yeah, inherently seeing the effort as some value. The question is what value?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. That makes you think of, so my stepson, he's 13, and he was playing on his junior high basketball team this year. That was great to go out and watch him. And they got to, I think, the semifinals, and they didn't win. And obviously that was disappointing. But, I mean, yeah, like you're saying, it's looking at the whole process, like the whole team and him as well. obviously improved skill and got better as they went along. So you can't ignore that and not consider it just because they didn't win the whole championship.
Joel Zimmerman
But some people do. Some people say, it doesn't matter, I didn't win. And, you know, we could get into a whole discussion of why that happens, but that is, you know, the, like when we're talking again about like, what's the overall impact of your mental health on that? Like that says something. Somebody who works very, very hard, spends hours and hours working on something and, you know, it comes to the last minute of it and it either falls apart or it doesn't get them exactly where they want it to go. And they look back on that journey that they had taken, however long it takes, and they say that was worthless. That's going to impact you. That's going to be a way bigger loss than just the loss of not winning or not getting the thing. Now you've lost all that time. Right. So you have to be able to spin that and say, okay, well, that was worth something. You know, you have to be able to kind of see that had some value, but it's not, it's not easy to do.
Katherine Hurtig
If someone's kind of just starting out with shifting their, their mindset in that way, you know, what are some small steps they can take to, to start viewing things differently?
Joel Zimmerman
So, you know, I think about, I'm not a hiker. I have a lot of friends who love going on hikes and I will go on a hike, but I would initiate a hike. Um, but I do see the value in it. It's a lot of fun. And, um, you know, when you're halfway up a mountain, you're definitely not at the summit yet and you definitely don't, you know, you're definitely not allowed to say I did it. But you can still stop and turn around and look at the view from halfway up the mountain.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And yeah. So you have come this far.
Joel Zimmerman
So people don't often do that or people often think, well, if I'm not at the top, then why should I give myself any credit for being halfway there?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
That's a big shift to be able to say, well, you're allowed to actually give yourself a pat on the back and you're allowed to. And I think it's inherent, it's imperative that you take some time to reflect on progress made up until now in pursuit of a larger goal.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
The little pieces kind of do matter. I think that's one shift. The other shift is like, again, how we talk to ourself, you know, not speaking in hyperbole. You know, this always happens. This never is going to get any better. Everything always should, shouldn't, you know, uh, some black and whites and some over exaggerations are really kind of, uh, things that we sometimes do want to stay away from because there is gray area in life. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's important not to kind of get caught up in some of those, uh, some of those black and white thinkings, especially when someone's saying it's never going to get better in the future. you don't have a crystal ball. It might, it might not, but it might. You don't know either way, but we do tend to, I think again, from that evolutionary standpoint and kind of from the inherent, we do tend to say, yeah, but if you don't know what's going to get better than it, you know, well, you don't know what's going to get better. So we will just assume it's going to get worse. It's a, it's a snap assumption. It's like, yeah, you might be right, but you also might be wrong.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And so how people kind of handle that, you know, again, that stressor is some people say, I don't know what's going to happen and I'm not going to be able to handle it. Um, or it's going to be too overwhelming. Healthy minds think, I don't know what's going to happen. The same as somebody who is caught up in some anxiety or some insecurities, the healthy version is still going to say, I don't know what's going to happen. They're just also able to say, eh, I'll probably figure it out. Like, and I'll, you know, kind of…
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
I've totally like run into that with my, my own anxiety and like things. Yeah. Like that's something in particular that I've had to work on is that idea of like, I don't know what's going to happen and I won't be able to handle it. Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
I don't know what's going to happen is the true fact. I can predict to some degree. I can use past experiences to some degree, but we don't have a crystal ball. Whether or not I think I can handle it, that's mindset. That's where we start to kind of, we have some wiggle room.
Katherine Hurtig
Exactly.
Joel Zimmerman
There's some room to play with there.
Katherine Hurtig
So, I mean, it's all, you know, it all kind of comes back to learning from or shifting perspective, you know, when difficult things happen. So why is learning from failures or struggles, why is it so valuable?
Joel Zimmerman
Because it's hard to do in the moment, isn't it?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Like people don't want to or aren't able to kind of recognize these things when things are going wrong.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And I don't like, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know if like in the moment is super realistic. It's not like you're going to get the call about like, you didn't get that job. Well, here's all the things I can learn from this.
Joel Zimmerman
Well, why isn't that like, like that's not terrible, right?
Katherine Hurtig
I guess it's a bad example. But, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
But the, the imperative here, like, I think this is the pitch for like having a growth mindset overall is important. I think again, because it's, it's one thing when things, When things are going well, that means that you're progressing towards your goals and the things that you want to be happening are happening and everything's going your way. So theoretically, if you do nothing different, things are going to be okay.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
However, when bad things happen or when you don't get the thing or you don't achieve the thing or there's a loss or a setback, inherently where you're trying to go is now derailed.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Joel Zimmerman
So that sucks. That's the first thing that sucks.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
How you respond to that makes a huge difference because you're already off track, essentially.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Joel Zimmerman
So now if you start making poor decisions and beating up on yourself and getting into more, essentially making it worse, now you've compounded a problem because things are going well. If you just kind of keep doing that, you're going to get there. Yeah, it'd be nice if you're humble while you're doing it, but it's not the end of the world if you're not. However, if you've now had a setback, you're now not getting to where you're going. So if you don't have a growth mindset at that point in time, and maybe now you start withdrawing and beating yourself up and getting into more and more trouble, you're not getting any closer to your goal at that point in time. So now you're already derailed. You already have a setback. And now you've compounded the problem because the way you're thinking about it and your attitude and your mindset towards it is now impacting your next moves. So I think a growth mindset is super important because when things aren't going well, it's a compounding effect. You're already not getting what you want.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
So again, that's terrible. That's a difficulty. But if you're going to start or stop progressing at that point just because that happened and your attitude and your mindset is going to prevent you from taking steps forwards, you're really not going to get there.
Katherine Hurtig
I think looking at, yeah, looking at it that way is probably like really important and beneficial for those people who, you know, like highly successful, really driven, you know, success oriented. I think looking at it that way would be super helpful because it's like, well, let's not, you know, dwell on this and beat myself up.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. Well, it's funny. I think that, I mean, it's important for everybody.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. No, totally. It just kind of made me think of that.
Joel Zimmerman
I think the challenge is, again, speaking about extremes, it's people who are incredibly successful do this, right? Coming back to, again, I don't want to belittle anybody who's having a difficult time. And resilience and learning from setbacks is not a given, and it's not the natural way. It is something that takes effort to then do. Right,
Katherine Hurtig
and it's not like a character flaw.
Joel Zimmerman
It's not a character flaw, absolutely. So there's so, you know, so I don't want to, yeah, I don't want to like belittle anybody who's, who, who is not able to kind of see that growth mindset. However, again, when you look at two people who see, who experience the same difficulty, there are some people that are able to, you know, to speak in uncertain terms, you know, pick themselves up and dust themselves off and move on. And there are some people who that does cripple them for the rest of their life. Same challenge to very difficult reactions. What's the difference between those people? There is a huge difference between those people. There's something that is different between those two people. We can spend hours speculating about whatever and why one person was able to meet that challenge and grow from it and why that other person was able to meet that same challenge and not grow from it. We could talk for hours, but to some degree it's this.
Katherine Hurtig
Different variables for sure.
Joel Zimmerman
There's a hundred and there's thousands and thousands of different variables. But what's important to recognize is those people are experiencing that issue differently.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And that's important because, again, even for the person who is not able to recognize it, there are other perspectives out there. There are ways to see that thing that they're unable to see.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
And so, yeah, there are, you know, there are differences. There are people in our lives who handle these stressors and handle these setbacks better than us. And we can learn a lot from them.
Katherine Hurtig
And that's, I think, an important point to make is like, you know, whatever, like even just everyday frustrations is keeping that in mind. Like there are different ways of looking at this. Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. There are lots of different ways about looking at, you know, even the simplest frustration. And it happens in variability, you know, even in our own lives. I think it's important to kind of recognize, you know, the same negative situation happened to you today that happened to you three days ago. And you handled them differently.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Because of the circumstances, because of how much food you had in your stomach and what was going on around that day. So, you know, nothing is stagnant and nothing is kind of forever in that way. Again, people tend to have kind of ways that they tend to default in handling things, but those things can change. you know, our mental health, and we know a lot about depression, is that some of the really common ways that people who are experiencing symptoms of depression think and talk, they think about the future as being very stagnant. It's going to be the same forever. It's always going to be like this, and it's never going to change. And that is a way that we can think. There are a lot of things where that's kind of true, but there is a lot of places where it's not quite true. So there’s some grey area wiggle room there
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I was just talking to someone about this, um, the other day about, yeah, like this person's kind of going through depression and, and one thing that has been super kind of helpful and comforting to me is yeah, that concept of impermanence and like, yeah, nothing is forever. Like even…
Joel Zimmerman
And so here's the, here's the, here's the catch 22 is that, you know, you know, I could ask you, like is life black and white?
Katherine Hurtig
No.
Joel Zimmerman
Sometimes though. Like have you ever been to France?
Katherine Hurtig
Yes.
Joel Zimmerman
Have you been to India?
Katherine Hurtig
No.
Joel Zimmerman
It's kind of black and white right, you're you have either been to France or you have not been to France you've been to India or not been to India. You know, how much do you like vanilla ice cream is gradient.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
So even in the statements of like nothing is permanent well some things very much so are.
Katherine Hurtig
Yes.
Joel Zimmerman
So again nothing is you know all of these things we have to be able the spectrum of. And that's a challenge that takes a second to stop and go, well, wait a minute…
Katherine Hurtig
Oh yeah. No, it's not an easy thing. Like, okay, I, you know, and it's not always, especially, you know, talking about the feeling of depression. It's not like I'm just going to say to someone, well, it's temporary. It's like, well, that feels better. But it just, it puts it into a bit more perspective. It's like, okay, it's just, I don't know…
Joel Zimmerman
Well, absolutely. And when I do my work, um, when I do work with clients who are experiencing depressions or anxiety or really anything, I love that reflective moment when they, they are feeling better and we do go back and, and I ask them, you know, like, what did you, you know, if you had shown up on day one, you know, and you look about where you are now, like what, you know, what are you really able to say? What are you able to kind of do differently? And they all say some version of like, oh, it'll get better. I just need to stick with it. I just need to. And I'm like, if you had shown up on day one and I said, Hey, listen, you just need to hang on there and it's all going to get better. Like, Would you have heard me? And they all laugh and they say no. But something has let them hear that. And there's that process.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Joel Zimmerman
You do have to work through it. While you're working through it, you have to keep your head up of the water a little bit. And to recognize this will pass. This is a process. There is something that I can learn from this. Because at the end of the day, the decisions that you make during that really difficult time matter. Again, when I go back to the idea of like being offset in a setback, like the decisions that you make during that are really, really going to matter. And if they're negatively impacted and they're getting in the way, then, yeah, it's not going to benefit you.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, it's, you know, a process. It's finding the things you can learn from it. But at the same time, I guess this is a question, it's important to, like, validate the, like, what you're feeling and going through.
Joel Zimmerman
Well, exactly. I think it comes back to the idea of being focused on the negative things, the things that you screwed up, the things that you, you have to look at those things, but it does take some courage and some strength. And yeah, you need to be, you know, it's really hard to look at, you know, your effort and say, I didn't do that well, or have someone look at you and say, you're not doing that as good as you could be. That hurts. And it takes a lot of strength to agree with them. And again, it takes a lot of validation from ourselves to be able to look at ourselves and say, you know what? Yeah, like that was difficult. And I could have done better. It's a really hard thing. And, you know, especially when it's coming from outside looking in or from the inside looking out, it takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot to be able to kind of do those things. So it's not easy, but I think these are the growth's mindset. These are the, that's the whole idea of, of what we're talking about here. I love this. I love this topic. Going back to the idea of, um, you got to start somewhere like, you know, why is it common to kind of focus on our negatives essentially? It is important to, yeah, when thinking about like why it sometimes feels easier to focus on the negatives, knowing that's a really natural place, that fine tipping point where we can over focus on the things that we're kind of doing wrong does is helped by a healthy understanding of what's like a solvable and an unsolvable problem like what is something that you can have some control over and what is something that you don't have any control over and you just kind of have to accept and then do and work with from there.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. That would be part of the growth in itself, right? Kind of being able to distinguish those two?
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly that's yeah being able to tell the difference between yeah like what is what is something that you should rally and fight against and what is something that you probably should just accept as this is what it is and I now have make adjustments and, and, and grow from it. I really like this topic just cause I have a personal motto and I know it sounds a little silly. But I definitely believe it. It comes from a… I was a, did competitive martial arts for like 20 years.
Katherine Hurtig
Oh wow.
Joel Zimmerman
I trained, I competed, I taught, I coached. Long story short that my motto is forever a student.
Katherine Hurtig
I love that.
Joel Zimmerman
Just to always, you know, that kind of people talk about the beginner's mind. You know, I think there's a lot of value to recognizing that even, and this comes from especially those lifelong pursuits of any athletics, any, you know, performance, music, arts, profession, right, is that if you recognize that there's always something to learn, you're never going to have a bad day. You know, if you always recognize that there's something that you can learn, And even the hardest days are a little bit easier because there is something there that you can then take with you.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, you're always like getting one step better, improving in some way.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, it allows you, again, humility in your wins and perspective in your losses.
Katherine Hurtig
What about the idea of like perfectionism in that? Like, have you ever, I don't know, worked with anyone like that, that, that, that kind of perspective, those two kind of clash a bit?
Joel Zimmerman
They 100% always do. The perfection, you know, somebody who is a perfectionist will often find themselves challenged by this. Again, coming back to this idea of like outcome versus effort, right? Effort is not easily perfected, right? Like the perfectionist sometimes looks at the outcome as the only thing that I want to measure. So if I didn't, then what was the point? It's like, well, what about all the effort that you put in up until that point? It's hard to quantify that in the same way because it's not a checkbox.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Joel Zimmerman
You can't have done it enough. You can break things down and it's important to have achievable goals that are SMART goals, S-M-A-R-T, SMART goals, the famous acronym. But some things are less discrete and they are more like ongoing. You have to be able to work with that in some way. But yeah, perfectionism can really kind of get in the way, again, of like giving yourself credit where credit is due and appropriately understanding what is your responsibility and what was not your responsibility. I think all the things that we said today kind of speak to that. I know we could continue talking about this for a long time.
Katherine Hurtig
I know, yes. Thank you so much, Joel. This was an excellent conversation.
Joel Zimmerman
Thank you for having me.
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in. This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, Manuel Montano, Jenna Forbes, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Joel Zimmerman.
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favorite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory.
Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counseling to anyone in Alberta with no waitlist and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com and counsellingalberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the US, seek help from your general medical practitioner.