Season 3, Episode 4: Understanding Shame
Shame is a deeply personal and often painful emotion, yet it’s something everyone experiences at some point in their lives. In this episode, psychologist Lisa McIsaac helps us understand what shame really is, how it differs from guilt, and why it can feel so isolating.
We explore where shame comes from, how it develops over time, the impact it has on mental health and self-esteem, and why it can be so difficult to talk about. We also discuss how shame can affect relationships, contribute to anxiety and depression, and lead to patterns of self-isolation and avoidance.
The good news? Shame doesn’t have to define us. Lisa shares strategies for breaking the cycle of shame, practicing self-compassion, and reframing experiences in a way that supports growth and self-acceptance.
Takeaways: Understanding and overcoming shame
Shame vs. guilt—understanding the difference
Shame and guilt are often confused, but they are different emotions. Guilt is about feeling bad for something you did, while shame makes you feel like you are bad as a person. Shame often leads to feelings of unworthiness, isolation, and self-doubt.
Recognizing the signs of shame
Recognizing the signs of shame can help in working through it. Shame can show up as low self-esteem, self-isolation, avoidance, and fear of judgment. It can also make people feel like they can’t be their true selves, leading to hyper-vigilance.
Self-compassion is key
Self-compassion plays a key role in overcoming shame. Treating yourself with the same kindness you would offer a friend can make a difference. Learning to accept yourself as you are can help reframe shame into an opportunity for growth.
Approaches that can help
Counselling can be a helpful tool in managing shame. Mindfulness and cognitive-behavioural therapy can challenge shame-based thoughts, while trauma-informed therapy can provide a safe space to explore past experiences and develop healthier perspectives.
Reframing shame as a learning experience
Reframing shame as a learning experience can support personal growth. Instead of seeing shame as proof of inadequacy, it can be viewed as an opportunity for self-acceptance. Working through shame can be uncomfortable, but you don’t have to do it alone—counselling can be a powerful resource for support.
These takeaways offer just a glimpse into the conversation about shame and how to navigate it. To hear more insights from psychologist Lisa McIsaac, including personal strategies and deeper discussions on overcoming shame, tune in to the full episode of Living Fully.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully. Each episode is a chance to talk about mental health in a way that's simple, honest, and helpful. We'll share stories, tips, and tools to help you feel supported and feel your best. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig. In this episode, I talk to psychologist Lisa McIsaac about the complicated emotion of shame, how it's different from guilt, and why it's such a universal tough topic to talk about. We'll chat about where shame comes from and how it can impact your mental health and relationships. We'll also explore ways to work through shame from practicing self-compassion to opening up to someone you trust and even using it as an opportunity for growth.
Welcome back Lisa. Thank you for being here today to talk about shame.
Lisa McIsaac
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Katherine Hurtig
When we talk about mental health, we're often talking about the different emotions we feel and how they can affect us. And so in this episode, we're going to do a deep dive on the feeling of shame. So what it is, what it feels like, how we can validate it and what we can do about it. So Lisa, it's been a couple episodes since you've been on. Can you refresh our listeners and tell us a bit about yourself?
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah, of course. My name is Lisa McIsaac. I am an associate director of Counselling Services here at Calgary Counselling Centre, and I'm a registered psychologist.
Katherine Hurtig
Excellent. Thanks so much. It's a very interesting topic.
Lisa McIsaac
It is an interesting topic and one that oftentimes, I think, makes people uncomfortable. So I think it's a great conversation for us to have.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Let's, you know, start with the basics. What is this feeling of shame? And how does it kind of differ from guilt?
Lisa McIsaac
Shame and guilt are complex emotions, you know, that often intersect and can generate many responses and cognitive distortions. So simply put, guilt stems from I did a bad thing. You know, so it's behavior based. An example could be, you know, a child, they stole something. You know, and so there's like a moral transgression or a wrongdoing. Whereas, you know, where an action or a behavior might be in contrast with like a social norm or a value. Unlike shame, which focuses on feeling like a defect to character, shame is about a person's identity. It's about a person's character, worth, and or value. So shame is a deep-rooted sense that the client is bad. You know, so guilt is I did a bad thing. Shame is I am the bad thing. Shame is a deeply distressing, uncomfortable emotion. And it typically arises when we feel like we've made a mistake and involves feelings of inadequacy, negative self-evaluation, self-consciousness in response to an event or something that's happened in our lives.
Katherine Hurtig
And why do you think that shame is such a universal emotion? I mean, I'm sure everyone listening has, you know, has felt that at some point.
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah, it's personal. You know, I think everybody feels shame, but it's often rooted in trauma. It's not talked about. There may be cultural or religious constructs that are confusing. An individual may be afraid. You know, they might be afraid to disclose for fear of rejection. They may not feel safe to express their emotions or disclose their feelings and talk about the events that may have caused them. And they may have been led to believe that they're to blame for the events underlying the shame.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. How can you personally, like how could I tell the difference between feeling guilty about an action, about something I did, and feeling shame about who I am?
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah, I think that someone who feels shame, they feel that internally. You know, it's deeply rooted. You know, they may isolate, avoid contact with other people. When they're talking to you, they might avoid eye contact, be afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing. A lot of hypervigilance and may manifest in low self-esteem, insecurity, avoidance. Like you can't be your true self. You know, feeling really inauthentic and bring about feelings of inadequacy. Guilt's usually event-based. You know, it's usually not long-lasting. It's fleeting. Could result in like acts of omission. You know, they're quite a bit different.
Katherine Hurtig
How does shame develop? Like, are we born with it or is it something we learn over time?
Lisa McIsaac
Well, it's a really good question. Research indicates that shame is evident in babies and animals. So that would lead us to believe that it's innate.
Katherine Hurtig
In animals?
Lisa McIsaac
In animals, like monkeys. Yeah, they've done research on babies and monkeys and they say that they experience shame. Yeah, it has an origin in the long-term survival of our species. So harmful shame can begin when we are really young, right? So children are less able to separate feelings from their self-image. So when a child experiences bad feelings, they may also come to believe that they're bad. So that creates insecurity and confusion about how to express painful emotions.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And so you said bad shame. So is there a healthy or constructive side to shame, or is it always negative?
Lisa McIsaac
I think there is a healthy and constructive side to shame. I think healthy shame aids in normalizing behavior, which teaches us how to coexist with others. Like, it's deeply rooted in faith and in cultural beliefs. Shame can make us humble, right? It can provide humility and teach us about boundaries. And without healthy shame, we have no way to understand really how our behavior affects other people. Shame can have meaningful purpose in aiding in the development of social order, right? So helping people to differentiate between social constructs of right and wrong and good and bad.
Katherine Hurtig
Are there common situations that can trigger feelings of shame?
Lisa McIsaac
Shame can be triggered by memories of past traumatic events and loss, perceptions of fear of judgment, right? So, you know, being judged by other people, fear of rejection, abandonment, you know, if those are people's experience, financial insecurities, inequity, low self-image, not fitting in, having to engage in social situations and being uncomfortable with answering personal questions for fear of being judged in those situations. Sexual orientation, gender stereotyping, toxic masculinity, you know, being a victim of intimate partner violence. There's so many things, like the list goes on.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's a long list. Yeah. And the first one you mentioned about trauma, what's some examples of a trauma that could lead to shame?
Lisa McIsaac
Some of the origins of trauma that we might see in therapy might be shame that a person experienced when they witnessed domestic violence, having a difficult childhood, so that could be situations of neglect, bullying, abuse, physical, sexual, or emotional abuse, a family history of mental health issues or addiction issues, experiencing loss. You know, loss can be very tragic for some people, especially if it's the loss of a parent to a child or a child for a parent. Like those are non-normative and can be very traumatic. Low self-esteem and negative body issues or having a pre-existing illness or a mental health issue.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay. You know, why does that fear of being judged socially or being criticized, why does that often bring up feelings of shame?
Lisa McIsaac
I think a person's self-worth is determined oftentimes by external factors. Like we develop our identity and relationship with other people. You know, if you think about as a child growing up in a family, we're seeking validation and feedback from your parents, you know, and your siblings, and the people in your environment to determine whether or not you're good, right? Am I good? Am I pretty? Am I smart? So our self-worth is based upon the perception of other people and whether or not we felt accepted by them. So feeling different from others, less than or judged, can exacerbate underlying feelings of shame and inadequacy.
Katherine Hurtig
Is there kind of a healthy balance there? And how do we move towards that? Because it's like, at a certain point, it is, you know, you do care about what other people think of you. But you don't want to go too much in either direction, right? You can't, like, determine your self-worth, but you can't reject, you know, the perception that other people have of you. Does that make sense?
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah, it does. And it's really complicated. I think as children, we're quite egocentric, you know, so we think we internalize everything that goes on around us as though it's about us and formulate your identity based upon that. You know, and if you're in a very positive and nurturing environment, then that's a good thing. So you want to take those perceptions and that validation. Because it's positive and it's going to grow you in a productive way. However, if you're in a negative environment with a lot of trauma or neglect, you know, that feedback that you're getting is not good. So as an adult, you need to be able to differentiate between positive and negative feedback and also be able to be constructive and objective about what you want to receive and accept for yourself. So there's a bit of a cognitive process in that. And there needs to be a healthy foundation for your self-esteem, I think, in order to be able to work on that. So it's different for different people. And I think part of it, too, is moving from being a child where you're internalizing, you know, that external feedback to an adult where you can critically observe the actions of other people and also attribute some of the negative perceptions to them and not necessarily take it on and make it about you.
Katherine Hurtig
And most of the time, does that just come with time and age and experience?
Yes and no. I think if you have a healthy self-concept, yes. And if you don't, then maybe not. You know, it might be a little bit harder. And that's where therapy can really help navigate that.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay. And this has come up a little bit. So what is the role that family or culture play in shaping how we experience shame?
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah, cultural attitudes toward vulnerability and emotional expression, personal relationships, you know, influence how individuals perceive and navigate complex emotions. So familial and cultural values, beliefs, and ideologies and expectations shape our perceptions of ourselves, the world, you know, our roles and responsibilities, our expectations and our value. So this is often evident in like gender roles in different cultures. And, you know, and that varies too depending upon the family and the culture, right? What that expectation might be around gender role, sexuality, you know, social status, and again, like things like financial inequity, feelings of inclusion, exclusion, safety and belonging, you know, so we're, you know, and whether we're in a collectivist kind of culture or an individualistic culture.
Katherine Hurtig
You know, if we've kind of grown up with these ideas that kind of lead to shame, how do we recognize that? And what are steps that we could take to change those beliefs?
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah, I think...
Katherine Hurtig
I bet that's kind of a complex question.
Lisa McIsaac
It is a complex question. It's a complex question because I think that, you know, the shame, shame because it's characterized by a deep sense of inadequacy and unworthiness can be really, really hard for a person to navigate seeking help or asking for help. You know, so some people suffer in silence, you know, for a very long time. And, you know, what's important is for people to know is that you're not alone. You know, everybody experiences and feels shame and some people to different degrees. And, you know, reaching out and asking for help is really important to be able to work through those issues and, you know, to find more adaptive ways of coping and more to incorporate more helpful ways of thinking and more helpful perceptions, and to be able to establish, you know, your own identity and your own value system separate and apart from, you know, what's been normalized to you and your environment.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. I could imagine that that would take a lot of work. Lisa, how does shame affect our mental health and self-esteem over time?
Lisa McIsaac
So that's, you know, it's an individualized kind of question because it affects everybody differently. Yeah, but on a more global level, I would say that being marginalized, you know, creates systemic discrimination and social stigma.
Katherine Hurtig
What do you mean by, yeah, sorry. You're going to explain yourself.
Lisa McIsaac
So being marginalized, you know, if being marginalized means if you're in a vulnerable group. Okay. You know, so if you're a cultural minority, you know, if you maybe have a disability or a cognitive disability, or you might have your sexual orientation, you know, might put you in a marginalized group. So, or financial inequity, you know, if you're experiencing poverty or addiction or houselessness. Being marginalized creates systemic discrimination and social stigma, which can exacerbate feelings of fear, shame, and guilt. Fear of discrimination or violence based upon race, gender, sexual orientation, or socioeconomic status, you know, can contribute to hypervigilance and emotional distress.
Katherine Hurtig
What's hypervigilance?
Lisa McIsaac
Hypervigilance is, you know, when you think about your startle reaction, you know, hypervigilant is when you're hyper alert to what's going on in your environment and, you know, really attuned. Usually people who are hypervigilant, they are always on the lookout for things that might pose a risk to their safety. And people who have experienced trauma and PTSD tend to have a lot of hypervigilance. You know, so oftentimes people may say, oh, you know, I'm really attuned to my environment. But that could mean, you know, you've had a past experience with trauma and you're just really good at reading a room. And being conscientious about what's going on around you.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So from what you've said, I would assume that shame could lead to other mental health issues, maybe like anxiety or depression.
Lisa McIsaac
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I would say that, you know, shame oftentimes leads to, you know, more mental health issues like anxiety or depression. And, you know, it can result in behaviors like being more withdrawn or isolated, shut down. So people can be lonely, you know, and or overly sensitive or they can strive towards perfectionism to try to fit in, you know, become high achievers or people pleasers. And those behaviors in and of themselves, you know, can have long lasting effects on people. So, and in cultures like ours where people focus on autonomy and self-expression, you know, like fear of failure and guilt for not achieving could attribute to people's mental health issues. You know, it's quite complicated.
Katherine Hurtig
I've heard this term of like the cycle of shame. What is that? Like, what does it look like and why is it kind of hard to break out of that?
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah, so the cycle of shame refers to a range of negative emotions in response to a person's experiences. So when they believe they've done something wrong or bad or something bad has happened to them, you know, it can exacerbate shame and reinforce negative beliefs about the self, which increases depressive thoughts and sadness, anxiety, self-doubt, you know, negative feelings like anger. So those things all reinforce more negative thoughts about the self, right? You know, so I've done a bad thing. I am a bad thing. You know, I'm stupid. You know, I'm not worthy. I'm not lovable. You know, like all of those negative thoughts and ruminating on things like that. It's like a snowball effect. You know, they just grow. You know, and shame is a relational experience. When a person feels differentiated and like they don't fit in or they are not worthy or they're not good enough or they're afraid of being rejected, they tend to isolate, withdraw, shut down. And it can be really hard to break those patterns. And the more isolated and withdrawn, you know, and that lack of engagement tends to just also reinforce those negative feelings about the self. So they're, yeah, that's, it's quite debilitating.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Okay, so let's get more positive about this. What can we do about it? So how can we acknowledge and validate feelings of shame without having it define who we are?
Lisa McIsaac
Right. So, I mean, first and foremost, I think it's about increasing understanding, you know, it's about a person understanding like why and how you came to be here. You know, so oftentimes when individuals come to me who have a lot of shame or a lot of trauma, you know, I try to normalize their experience because most often people have had a history of being pathologized. Right. Like what's wrong with you? So, you know, and there's nothing wrong with them because if you took 20 other people who had similar experiences and you put them in the room, they would show up similarly, you know, with similar presenting problems. So I educate and normalize those experiences and the impact for people. You know, if you're feeling this way, it's because of the experiences that you've had. It's not because of you. You know, and that other people who've had similar experiences would show up like you. So just really normalizing how they feel in their presentation and attributing the bad thing to what happened to them, not them. You know, I think that's first and foremost. And helping people have self-compassion, you know. It's just being gentle with themselves and having that self-compassion.
Katherine Hurtig
What does that look like? Like when you're working with a client, how do you help them build that skill of self-compassion?
Lisa McIsaac
Oftentimes I would ask somebody, you know, if they had a friend who had that experience, you know, how would they support that friend? What would they have to say to them? And how they would address that situation with someone else is often vastly different than how they would address it with themselves. And it's eye-opening for people. So I try to work with people from a be-your-own-best-friend kind of perspective, you know, help them increase their awareness about how they show up for other people and, you know, how they view other people who have experienced adverse events. And then trying to put that into perspective when it comes to themselves, you know. So why aren't you deserving of this kindness? Why aren't you deserving of this acceptance? And, you know, it really shifts that perspective for people.
Katherine Hurtig
Why is that so often our go-to is to be like so much harder on ourselves than other people?
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think that as human beings, we seem to be by default, oftentimes be harder on ourselves. But I also think that there is a societal construct around that also. You know, there's a lot of conflicting values and belief systems that we learned growing up. And I mean, some of them that I think about is, you know, don't lie, but don't say anything and hurt someone's feelings, you know. So it's kind of like, you know, it's a conflicting belief or, you know, you need to take care of other people and be really kind, but don't be selfish, you know.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. We're given these conflicting messages.
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah. So, you know, it's like, let's prioritize other people, but not yourself. You know, so don't practice self-kindness is almost like the message, you know. And I think that they make sense when we're growing up, but they don't really make sense in the larger picture. And they're not helpful.
Katherine Hurtig
No, we say that, but it's a lot more nuanced than just that.
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah. I think in general, like not to generalize too much, but I think in general, we're not really taught how to prioritize ourselves and practice self-care.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. In your work, are there specific therapeutic approaches that are particularly effective for working with shame?
Lisa McIsaac
You know, I'd hate to ascribe to certain therapeutic modalities because, I mean, most of us here are generalists. Therapeutic approaches are individualistic, so. What that means is whoever's sitting in front of me, I'm going to adapt to try to meet their needs. But some of the things that I think can work with shame or trauma are like mindfulness integrated cognitive behavioral therapy and prolonged exposure. So for people who have experienced a lot of trauma. Other things that work are like social skills training, compassion, mind training. So like around self-care and compassion. Using a trauma-informed care perspective and...
Katherine Hurtig
What does that mean?
Lisa McIsaac
Trauma-informed care?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Lisa McIsaac
Trauma-informed care would really be about understanding, like, the impact of trauma and the origin of trauma and being able to work with people from, like, a sensitive and culturally appropriate way to be able to put them at ease and make them feel safe and supported, you know, as you work through. those events and issues. Dialectical behavioral therapy, working on emotional dysregulation with people, because oftentimes people who've experienced shame and trauma are very reactive or emotionally dysregulated. So somatic therapies, working with moving into the body, you know, getting out of your head and your negative thought patterns and focusing on the past or worrying about the future.
Katherine Hurtig
So there's, yeah, it sounds like there's a lot of different approaches that can be used.
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah, the list is endless. And there's probably lots that I am not even aware of or not trained in as well, you know.
Katherine Hurtig
How do you go about, I don't know if like picking the right one is the right term to use, but like you're working with a client, how do you go about figuring out which way, which approach might be best for them?
Lisa McIsaac
I think that there's a couple of different ways. I mean, like I said, some of us have a natural propensity towards a certain style or a certain way of working with clients. And oftentimes we bring what I call the person of the therapist into the room, right? So you are who you are.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I think that's inevitable. Yeah.
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah. And you meet the client where they're at, right? So you have to take into account who you are, what your natural style is, and then you have to determine what brings the client there, what their goals of care are, and what you think might work for them. And some of it is about obtaining feedback from the client. We do a really good job of that here. You know, we do a lot of outcome measures to track the client's progress, and we ask for feedback about their experience of working with us and we have dialogue with the client. So that should really inform, you know, whether what we're doing is working or whether or not we should try a different approach.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay. The question is how can someone reframe their experience of shame into an opportunity for personal growth? But is that how we should think of it, of reframing shame?
Lisa McIsaac
I think reframing shame is a good way of looking at it. Because, you know, it's a construct, right, that we've created. It's this internal dialogue that we've created about our experiences. So it's important for us to reframe that in a way that's healthier and gentler and kinder, really. So some of the ways that I think are helpful in reframing shame are in that, you know, developing a healthy perspective around self-acceptance. You know, I'm actually okay. Like, You know, I'm okay with who I am. I'm okay. I'm perfectly okay in this moment. And that doesn't mean that there's not room for growth. It just means that, you know, you can accept yourself and meet yourself wherever you're at with kindness and compassion. And increasing, you know, that understanding and expanding that perspective on how you view yourself in relation to the events that happen in your life. Taking away what you've, how those past experiences can shape you, how they've strengthened you, how they've changed your perspective, how they've changed you in regard to how you show up in the world, you know, in positive and negative ways, right? Like we can identify those and we can have compassion for the ways that they've shaped us negatively. And we can see the resilience and the strength and how they've shaped us in a positive way. And working on forgiveness too, you know, like, and forgiveness isn't always about forgiving the person who harmed us. Sometimes forgiveness is about letting go of that blame and that those negative emotions that we have in ourselves. And, you know, and, and again, having some gentle kindness and compassion and self-love really.
So some of the ways you might be able to facilitate that with clients too, is as an older person revisiting, say, a trauma experience in childhood, it's like, how can you have compassion for that younger version of yourself? If you're in a room with that younger version of yourself, what do you think they needed? Can you provide that now? You know, can you provide that, that safety and that compassion and that understanding? And sometimes that can be really awe-inspiring for people because they never really think about it in that way.
Katherine Hurtig
That specific kind of practice, what kind of feedback have you got from clients who you've worked with?
Lisa McIsaac
Initially, reluctance.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Lisa McIsaac
I would think a lot of resistance.
Katherine Hurtig
I can relate. I did something similar with a counselor a few years ago. Yeah. It was hard at first. It just felt very awkward.
Lisa McIsaac
I think because sometimes there's a disconnect between who we were when we experienced that event and who we've become. And we have a tendency to compartmentalize, you know, shove stuff down and, you know, and it's just painful. So reconnecting with those experiences can be really painful, but sometimes it can also be very healing and really rewarding. And it's about the act of moving into that self-compassion and operationalizing that, if you will, you know, because it's one thing to talk about it. It's another thing to do it. And that, you know, people when they come back after having those experiences, usually there's humor, like there's some dark humor in the room where people will say, yeah, you know, I really didn't want to do that. And they may have stronger language and ways of expressing that, but then they'll say that was really powerful and really impactful.
Katherine Hurtig
Exact word I was thinking it was it was very powerful.
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah I'm glad to hear that.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, yeah that's an important thing for people to understand about some aspects of counselling it's like it's gonna be really uncomfortable sometimes but that doesn't mean it's not effective or that it's not gonna help you.
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah and I think that's building shame resilience yeah it's a it's about embracing that shame and learning how to be at peace with it and move into, you know, that discomfort in a really productive kind of way.
Katherine Hurtig
We've talked about how guilt and shame are connected. Would you say, you know, if we move to kind of a healthier perspective, is it shifting to feelings of fleeting guilt than deep-rooted shame? Does that make sense? Like, is it, I don't know, for example, well, let's say, you know, I leave here and I get in a minor car accident and it was my fault. I could feel pretty guilty about that. Or I might think like, oh, I'm terrible, horrible driver. I shouldn't like, this was awful. And just really ruminate on that. Is a healthy place to get to more of treating situations like that with a feeling of guilt than shame?
Lisa McIsaac
Well, I mean, I think again, it's complicated, right? You know, I don't want to say that there isn't a place for guilt and or shame. You know, because as we talked about earlier, I think there is healthy shame. You know, and we all feel guilty about some things. And nowadays, I feel like we have a tendency to move away from uncomfortable feelings. And I think it's also important to be able to address our uncomfortable feelings and to be able to move through them in a healthy way.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally.
Lisa McIsaac
So, you know, in your example, you know, you have a car accident and let's say you were distracted, you know, and you hit somebody in your car and you feel guilty. I would say in that moment, that's understandable perhaps that you felt guilty.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, it's normal.
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah. But you also want to be able to move into a place of, you know, accidents do happen. Hopefully nobody was hurt. And it's done, right? Like you've had an accident. You can't correct that. You can correct the behavior that led to the accident going forward. But, you know, also be thankful that you're okay. Is the other person okay? Mistakes happen. We all make mistakes. We're human beings. And, and, and how do you move through that in a healthy way?
Katherine Hurtig
That kind of makes me think like, that's like in, in my work and kind of communications and marketing around, around mental health, that that's something we've tried to put out there. It's like, it's not like if you have good mental health, you're happy all the time and you don't experience these uncomfortable emotions. But it's about like being okay with the fact that you are human and have and do experience these uncomfortable emotions sometimes.
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah, exactly. I had a friend once say, you know, life is like trying to navigate a canoe on the river. You know, you've got two banks and one is a bank of joy and the other one is a bank of sorrow. And in life, we're all going to rub up against both banks. But our job is to really navigate back and forth and try to stay in the middle. Right. And that made sense to me. I don't know if it made sense to you, but it resonated with me, you know, like we will make mistakes and we are not perfect.
Katherine Hurtig
And like mental health isn't about avoiding feeling those things.
Lisa McIsaac
Well, exactly. Mental health is not about avoiding those things. And I think everybody experiences joy and sorrow and loss and heartache and pain. And, you know, and they also have joy and prosperity and, you know, connection. And, you know, nothing in life is constant and things change and fluctuate, just like the weather and our moods and our motivation. It's about being able to navigate it in a healthy way.
Katherine Hurtig
In what ways, whether it's talking to someone you care about or to a counsellor, like how does opening up and talking about shame help you work through it?
Lisa McIsaac
I think people tend to suffer in silence, you know, and in isolation a lot. When we have those uncomfortable feelings, oftentimes it doesn't feel safe to talk about them. Or like sometimes when I work with individuals, I'm the first person they've told these things to. And sometimes, you know, they've been carrying around this shame and these secrets for 20 or 30 years. So just finally putting it out there and putting it in a room and sharing it with somebody is almost like letting go of that burden or sharing that burden, I guess.
Katherine Hurtig
I'd imagine that's, I mean, there'd be so many feelings around that. Like, yeah, a feeling of relief, but also like that'd be kind of scary to just have that information out there.
Lisa McIsaac
But having it received in a safe space where somebody can hold you in that moment, and I don't mean hold you physically. I mean hold you in the safety of that moment, right? It's a confidential space. It's a safe space. It's nonjudgmental. It's nonpathologizing. You know, there's nothing that you can say that is not going to be accepted in that room. That your feelings associated with that experience are okay.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Let's say that again. Yeah. Nothing you can say. How did you put it? Nothing you can say that won't be accepted?
Lisa McIsaac
Yeah, in this room. Yeah, it's a safe space. Everything that you say is okay in this room. You're okay in this room. You know, I see you. I hear you. I'm here for you. And that's huge, especially, like, I mean, there's, you know, a lot of people who don't have that feeling ever. Yeah, and it wasn't your fault, you know, for people to understand that that wasn't your fault, right? You didn't ask for that, right? You did not deserve that.
Katherine Hurtig
Feels like my own counselling session. It's great. Thank you so much, Lisa. This has been an amazing conversation.
Lisa McIsaac
Well, I really appreciate you inviting me into this conversation.
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in. This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, Manuel Montano, Jenna Forbes, and by me Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Lisa McIsaac to stay up to date on our latest episodes be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favorite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling to anyone in Alberta with no waitlist and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com and counsellingalberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the U.S., seek help from your general medical practitioner.