Season 3, Episode 11: Under Pressure - Understanding Performance Anxiety
Whether it’s a big presentation, a job interview, a performance, pressure has a way of getting to all of us—no matter how prepared we are. In this episode, psychologist Joel Zimmerman and professional bagpiper Daniel Lidgren, talk about what performance anxiety really is and how to manage it. You’ll hear Daniel’s personal story of grappling with anxiety on stage, and Joel’s insights into what happens in our brains and bodies under pressure.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully. Each episode is a chance to talk about mental health in a way that's simple, honest, and helpful. We’ll share stories, tips, and tools to help you feel supported and feel your best. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig. Whether it's stepping on stage, walking into a job interview or giving a big presentation, pressure is a way of getting to all of us. Even when we're prepared, our minds and bodies can react in ways we don't expect. In this episode, we're taking a closer look at performance anxiety, how it shows up, why it affects even the most prepared people, and how to move through it with more confidence. Psychologist Joel Zimmerman and professional musician, Daniel Lidgren join me to share their perspectives from both clinical and personal experience. We'll explore what's happening in the brain and body under pressure, how to prepare for high stakes moments. And why managing long term stress is just as important as calming pre-show jitters.
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OK, we have an exciting kind of different from our usual episode today. I'm here with Joel Zimmerman. He's been on a few times. He's a psychologist at Calgary Counselling and Counselling Alberta. Welcome back, Joel.
Joel Zimmerman
Thank you for having me.
Katherine Hurtig
And we also have my brother, Daniel. He's manager of account management with the City of Calgary. But he’s also an accomplished musician - he plays the bagpipes. Thanks for being here, Dan.
Daniel Lidgren
Thank you for having me.
Katherine Hurtig
So what we're going to get into today is the concept of performance anxiety. With the bagpipes, Dan has had a bit of experience with that. So can you tell us a little bit about that back story?
Daniel Lidgren
Yes, I'd be happy to. I started piping in 1995 when I was 13 and for most of the time up until I was around 18 or so, I didn't really have much of a problem at all, but round 18, that's when I joined a very high level competitive pipe band, Alberta Caledonia Pipe Band that competed at the grade. one level, so it's a very highest level. And that band travels or did travel to the World Championships every summer and the World Championships I describe it, it's a little bit funny when you think of a bagpipes, but it's the Super Bowl of bagpiping with an arena and stadium seating and crowds that go back, say, 20 people.
Katherine Hurtig
Oh my gosh.
Daniel Lidgren
So it's it's quite an event with 10s of thousands of people that come to see it.
…
I remember my first time there and I didn't quite make the competition circle the first year there, just to skill level, but that was quite an intense moment. Just seeing this, this place, and then I remember the next year for some reason, I was having a solo bagpiping competition. So solo is just me out in Saskatchewan. And I remember feeling a little bit funny that day. Just not feeling quite myself and maybe feeling a little bit nervous. The judge happened to be someone I admired quite a lot and in the middle of the performance I started gagging.
Katherine Hurtig
OK.
Daniel Lidgren
And part of the bagpipes is you have to blow into the bag. So that made it so I couldn't continue. I actually stopped, which meant I was disqualified. And that was kind of a funny moment that had never happened to me before, and I wasn't quite sure what was going on.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Daniel Lidgren
And then it kept happening.
Katherine Hurtig
And was that, was that gesturing, competitive moments, or was that anytime you practiced?
Daniel Lidgren
It also started to come up when I was practicing too, and I think it just it kind of got in my head like this is now a thing and I started kind of feeling very anxious about playing and nervous and particularly with the band. My band members started noticing this and they started losing a little bit of confidence in me as well. And the leadership kind of said, well, this is something you need to sort out because we can't have somebody constantly stopping playing while we're trying to rehearse. Yeah, that was kind of my background as far as performance anxiety. And I think it started a little bit from the intensity of being in this high-level band and then these feelings of not wanting to let everybody in the band down and also even in my solo competitions. Now there is being in this band there was a need to perform well to maintain the reputation as a band member. So all of this kind of compounded in my head, and strangely enough, it resulted in this physiological manifestation of anxiety.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's a lot of pressure to be under. So Joel, like from a psychology and counselling perspective, what was what was happening with Dan, what was he going through?
Joel Zimmerman
Well, I think there's so many different elements and different elements we can break down. I really appreciate kind of the way that you kind of came at this. But I think at just the initial level, right, there's. The idea that our bodies are always picking up what's going on around us, that's their job, our brain, our bodies are reacting to the world around us. And one of the ways they do that is like through some sort of like arousal and so like, our brains pick up information either about the world around us. You know, we're in a situation that's. Exciting or dangerous or worrisome, and it sounds like you know when you describe that situation, you're thinking about that competition, and it was like the judge was someone that I admired. Like, there's something that was in your mind. And I'm sure there's lots of elements. The crowd, the pressure. So many of those elements and the brain’s reacting to that and it does as we all kind of experience for all sorts of emotional reactions the body has a way that it expresses that and how it feels that I think the kind of best way that I can almost describe it. It's like if you're walking in the woods or something and you see a dangerous thing, you see a bear or something, your body's gonna might be afraid. Your mind might think that there's something going on there. And it's going to mobilize the body's resources. It's going to send hormones. It's going to get blood pumping to certain parts of your body and away from other parts of your body. And that physiological response you feel you pick up on that. And it's sometimes it's confusing. What is this? You know, people talk about butterflies or sinking feelings. It's literally like blood moving around your body in different ways. Your hearts going, or and again these hormones and neurotransmitters are kind of flooding our system and yeah, so we feel that and then we start to then like interpret like oh what does this mean and then we can have other thoughts and then the challenge is so that's like if you do see the bear or you are in the actual moment, but the other challenge is that. Sometimes you're walking in the woods or you're getting ready for a performance and you think you see the bear or you see evidence of the bear, or you're imagining the bear.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
You're imagining performing or the judge there or letting down your teammates or your bandmates. They're not there in front of you. There's no actual danger right there. But your brain is so good at what it does. It can't tell the difference. And it sends the same signals. It releases the same hormones that it kicks off that same response. Where that feeling of anticipatory fear or excitement and the real fear or excitement are both identical to the body, which is really cool, so like having a physiological response to literally anything. But in this case, like an exciting or a stressful or a high-pressure situation is really felt by the body. And it sounds like sometimes it's that initial one, but then over time, you know, you kind of described like it became this thing and it really. You know, amped up and it can kind of compound and it's through this combination of what's going on in our mind, what's going on in our body. And the two things interacting.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. So when you think. About these experiences, as a musician, how would you describe your experience? How did it kind of present itself like I know you, you mentioned gagging, but were there other ways it was presenting?
Daniel Lidgren
Joel, what you said about the pit, the feeling of something in your stomach, I definitely think that that was also something I would get and the butterflies and just the nervous tension and also in my head, the thought that the negative outcome like playing badly or I'm likely going to gag that started getting in my head and I just started feeling that more likely than not the experience was probably not going to be good. This was less so when I was practicing at home in a controlled environment, it wasn't so bad, but it's still crept up and I tried to kind of build on that, but then in and amongst my teammates, or if it was on any sort of performance setting. I just felt that more and more.
Joel Zimmerman
It sounds like it's really not only just that physical, but then also that mental, that like what if this goes poorly or I think it's gonna go poorly. So both of those things sound like they’re happening, like that physical response. And then there's also the cognitive the thought response. What's going on in our head and how it makes us feel how it makes us react in our body. Both of those things are happening at the same time.
Katherine Hurtig
I mean, it makes me think of my own experiences with anxiety. It's like, it is, it's the what ifs. It's trying to plan for the future. Like, well, I've got a, you know, plan for this negative situation and this is probably going to happen and…
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
So I mean from either one of you like chime in, why do you think that people like yourself Dan who are highly skilled who are well prepared, like you said, Grade 1 bagpiper, you know what you're doing. Why do we struggle with nerves in high pressure situations?
Daniel Lidgren
I think it may be a combination of what you want to do really well. You want to be your best and in the competitive area like I wanted to win.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Daniel Lidgren
I wanted to be successful and that put a little bit of pressure on myself and pressure can be good and can push you to great heights in a lot of ways, and I think it did for a many number of years. But it can also kind of put that negative pressure on you to perform your best and worry that you may not if things don't go quite as you would hope.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, yeah, Joel said the exact same thing on this podcast before, like a little bit is OK.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, yeah. And I want to get into that. I love how you kind of frame that cause that that sets me up really nice, but that recognition that like there is an amount that is useful, there's an amount of stress arousal is the word that I like to use. It's kind of neutral, right? We're not talking about good stress or bad stress, yeah, the question that you're asking is like, why do we struggle with this? And I think the idea why we struggle with this is because this is the body’s perfectly normal natural response to stuff - doesn't matter what it is, and there's a couple really interesting kind of scientific pieces about this. One of them is they measure blood flow. So if you if you mapped out people's blood flow while they're experiencing high levels of emotional arousal, sadness, happiness, anger, fear and anxiety, or worry and excitement, and you map out the blood flow in the brain and the body, anxiety and fear and excitement, anticipatory good things identically physiologically look the same. So it's the same thing happening in your body. Whether you're going on a roller coaster or about to step on a stage, or about to go in front of your boss. It's physiologically identical, so it's not a bad thing. The question or the problem comes when, yeah, that isn't an appropriate amount, or our interpretation of what's going on? Oh my god, what is this? That's not going to help. Or it's too much, and so the science behind this or one of the things I love, it's called the Yerkes Dodson law.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Joel Zimmerman
The Yerkes Dodson law is the relationship between arousal. Yeah, and performance. And I think the easiest way to describe this without kind of showing you a curve is it’s like when you're driving in, you know, in Calgary or something in, in the middle of the winter, you know, and it's night out and it's icy and you can't see, you don’t want to be asleep at the wheel, you don't want to be careless. You don't want to be like, oh, this is fine. You don't wanna be so relaxed that you're asleep at the wheel.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
So the other end of the spectrum is so gripped by fear that you're like white knuckle driving. Yeah, your hands are gripping when your muscles are tense. You're maybe even like wincing every time a little bit of snow hits your windshield. That's not going to be an appropriate amount of anxiety that's going to help you drive.
Katherine Hurtig
So you want the alertness?
Joel Zimmerman
You want the alertness, and then you want it to peak. So the York thoughts and laws is a curve.
Katherine Hurtig
OK.
Joel Zimmerman
That has a sweet spot. So not enough, there's low performance, right? So the bottom axis is the is the level of arousal and it goes up by performance on the on the vertical axis. So no arousal. You know to to play bagpipes, you gotta have your your lungs capacity. Your blood's got to be going a little bit. And if you're asleep there, you're not going to be able to perform your best. The freeze kind of happens, or we're we're we're choked up. Somewhere in the middle there's enough arousal. That's appropriate. Kind of going back to driving, you're alert, your head's on a swivel, you're being mindful. They're, you know, appropriately tense, but loose enough to react so the Yerkes Dodson law talks about that sweet spot. There's enough arousal to kind of motivate you and activate you appropriately for the situation. Not enough, you're asleep at the wheel. Too much, you're gripped with fear, and it's not going to be helpful either.
Katherine Hurtig
So Joel, sometimes with performances like, I put that in quotes, maybe making you know big sports play or doing a work presentation. Those are kind of like one off things. Is preparing for things like that different from dealing with kind of long-term pressure. Like if your job or hobby or whatever it is, is something where you have to perform on the daily?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, well, I think the preparing for those things is different and I think it's is just because that the experience of those things is different like the I think the short term yeah kind of initial jolt of anxiety or worry that comes with a big performance is different than constantly being exposed to that over time.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
So I do think that they're different. So if you're specifically, yeah, talking about, like, what, what are some things to kind of consider in the short term? Again, you're still preparing.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
But I think yeah, like how we prepare for that short term piece, like one of the things that we kind of think about is how much preparation do we need, how much do we need to be thinking about this? You know, how much can we actually prepare for and how much is going to be left up to the moment or chance or some other things. So I think part of that preparation is actually knowing when to stop thinking and stop trying to prepare and gonna say, Yep, I've prepared enough and then step into like the execution of it and not let all of that preparation and analysis be done while you're trying to perform.
Katherine Hurtig
Does that resonate with you? Like have there been times where it's like I like I can't practice anymore. It won't help.
Daniel Lidgren
There were sometimes like that. So for instance, I tried to take a positive approach that this is a problem I've been encountering, and I I've gone through many iterations of what to do. But for instance I would decide to practice on, not a competition piece, just a nice casual piece that I enjoy that I've played for years that I know I'm going to play well. So I would focus on that. If I was having trouble. If that went well, then I would think to myself well, that went pretty good. So why not try a competition piece after that? And I will say even today, I still kind of struggle with performance anxiety for all these events, but I can kind of manage it due to various factors and I would say anything from getting a good night's sleep, eating well, getting a decent amount of exercise. Although I do struggle with that. And sleep, especially with my newborn. But practicing, especially leading up to the event is very, very important. So leading up to a big event instead of being non routine. And I did also find the gagging seemed to be when I really thought about it after a period of time, it was a feeling that I wasn't getting enough air. And I kind of equate the anxiety a little bit to I'm not really breathing as much as I ought to.
Joel Zimmerman
You probably weren’t.
Daniel Lidgren
Right.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Daniel Lidgren
And that was that was kind of a trigger point where I'm like, OK, well, make sure you're breathing. Make sure you're taking deeper breaths and constantly thinking about that one other thing because you're breathing into this instrument all the time. You're going low on breath or you could be.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Daniel Lidgren
And what also compounded it is if there was a problem, like if the bag was leaky or the blowpipe was leaky, that made things tougher and it made it tougher to breathe. And that would always be the last thing I would check. I would always think ohh, I'm out of shape. I just haven't been practicing enough. Ohh actually there's a leak in your bag and once I fix that, geez, I feel so much better. So, and for whatever reason for me, that seemed to be like the last thing I would check. It would always be. Geez, what am I? What am I not doing right? Rather than a simple practical fix.
Joel Zimmerman
You almost blame yourself. You would look to what am I doing wrong or how am I screwing this up before the actual like, Oh no, this is just hard because there's a machine here that's not working appropriately. That's super. Cool.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I've done that too. It's like if there's a, you know, a hard situation it's like that's what I go to 1st. It's OK like how did I screw up or what could I do? But in any kind of situation like there are a lot of variables and stuff that's out of your control.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. Well, and so for the preparation, going back to your question, like how do we prepare for short term things, I think what you're talking about really highlights a couple of things cause it's like so practice is one thing, but the knowledge of I know that in the moment it's going to get tense. I know in the moment I'm likely to feel this way, like we're preparing one of the things that we need to practice for in in any high performance situation is preparing for how it's going to feel when we're performing and what our mind is going to be doing. And if our mind is elsewhere, whether that's on analyzing, am I doing this right, am I playing the right thing or am I being seen appropriately? Or what's going on with my bag? What's going on with my breath? I'm sucking. This is terrible. All of those things. Are they gonna help you, you know, perform? Or are they gonna, you know, kind of get in the way? So again, that the preparation, I think goes into this is a lot of people do recognize the necessity to prepare for how we're going to feel and think in that moment and make sure that that's in line with, like our intentions.
Katherine Hurtig
I've heard of like visualization with like sports psychology and stuff is…
Joel Zimmerman
Huge part, yeah cause it's so a great analogy, when you're skiing, you know, and you're going through trees. Do you wanna focus on the tree or the path? Right. If you're skiing and you're focusing on the tree, you're gonna hit the tree. You steer where you look essentially. Same for thing for cars, right? And so if you're thinking I'm going to suck, I'm. I'm not breathing enough. I'm they're not watching me. I'm my. My foot's in the wrong place. My fingering is wrong. That's what you're going to do. You're going to focus on that. If you instead, you're. Focusing on being relaxed, what do I want to be doing? I want to be presenting myself. I want to be standing up straight. I don't know what the metrics of a good pipe performance are, but I'm sure those things are able to be focusing on and if you're focused on these other things, that's what you're gonna focus on and it's going to drag you down.
Daniel Lidgren
I agree with that very much. And I would say positive visualization is something that's rseally helped me over the course of time. So instead of the automatic response of thinking it's going to go poorly, I would take a proactive approach and say no, it's actually going to go well and I would think about that in my head leading up to the event that things are going to go well. I'd visualize myself playing the full piece, feeling good, playing well, same in the band, and I'd try to constantly force myself to think of the best situation rather than the worst situation, which did require some effort on my part. The natural was to go to the negative.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally
Joel Zimmerman
Which is totally normal, yeah.
Daniel Lidgren
But the unnatural what I had to work towards was constantly think of the best, or that it wouldn't be nearly as bad as I thought it would be.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. So you trained for that, you trained to do that. That's like part of your training was to think about that. And yeah, you bring up visualization like in sports psychology, that all these really funky little tidbits. So the Yerkes Dodson law was one of them. This one is what they call the sports big three: visualization, self-talk and self-soothing or physiological management, right. So we have an outcome that we want. Let's visualize it. Let's put that in the front of our minds. But what we want me to be able to manage our self-talk, right? Are we talking about to ourselves about the most positive outcome or the negative outcome? Are we focused? Does our self-talk focused about what we want to do or is it off, you know daydreaming right? Again in La La Land or thinking about the worst case scenario. And then that self-soothing, you know that that ability to manage your heart is going to be pumping. Your lungs are going to be working over time, you know, how do I throttle that back and forth again going back to that Yerkes Dodson law, and that there's a sweet spot. And so too much of that anxiety freezes you up. Not enough and you're not gonna react appropriately. So it's like a throttle, really kind of working in, in, in your body.
Katherine Hurtig
So I mean you talked about visualization Dan. But what other strategies have helped you manage anxiety?
Daniel Lidgren
Yeah. So there's a number. One funny one that now I just do as out of habit. And someone suggested the gagging might be due to a dry mouth. So I chew gum when bagpiping and I, I don't really think I need to do that. But I do it and it's kind of funny. I might be one of the very few people that do, but that's just something. And it does keep my mouth moist, and it's just like. It's almost like a thing to do that I need to do to be to be good. So I've continued doing that, but more practically getting a good night's sleep always seems to help, and good diet and prepare. And when I say prepare not just the music, but if it's a an event. The next day, preparing the backpack that I'm going to take to the Highland Games field with my granola bars and everything, so that when I wake up in the morning that's already ready to go and I don't have to think about that, I can focus on just relaxing and being at my best. And I'd say in addition to positive visualization, being optimistic, being upbeat and being happy and just thinking about what I enjoy, so when I play and the pipes are tuned well and I'm playing one of the tunes I really like just taking a moment to enjoy that and how good it sounds. And trying to focus on that and then trying to channel that into when it's competitive, we'll think back to when you were in your room and it was going well. And that always seems to help me.
Katherine Hurtig
I think yeah and that can probably be applied to like any kind of anxiety inducing situation is taking that moment to enjoy it, to think of how cool this experience is or you know, to be proud of yourself, or…
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. Everything you said there is like, yeah, these are all the skills, you know, we all talk about them in different ways, but, you know, and there's official names to give everything that you just said. You know, I love that, like, linking back to success is kind of reminding ourselves that. The moment of being yeah, giving yourselves all the time in the world to focus on what you need to instead of not focusing on what you shouldn't. So all those things are. I mean, I think one of the only one of the things I'll add to is then going back to that idea that like this is the body's natural response to situations that are arousing. We actually, like you like playing the pipes right. You want to be here. That's so the again that's because that physiological, how it feels is actually so identical between anxiety, worry and excitement. One of the little things you can do is trick yourself to telling yourself that this is pleasant. I actually like this. This is enjoyable. I'm here for a reason and this is the feeling that I get when I like things because your body doesn't know the difference, right? So it doesn't know the difference between, again, a real bear and an imagined bear in the same way that it doesn't know the difference when your heart is pounding and your blood is moving around your body, it doesn't know if this is because we're afraid or because we're excited.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
If you tell yourselves, well, this is this is excitement actually that I’m feeling that is again a way to kind of trick your brain into having a more positive response. Because if we think we're enjoying this, we're less likely to get more dry mouth and more anxiety and more worry and it and it cycles into a more positive. Oh, this is fun. This is enjoyment. I might be doing well in this. Oh gosh, like I wonder what happens if I think I'm doing well. Things change.
Katherine Hurtig
A couple things you mentioned, Dan, that I want to touch on is like the basics of physical health, because I think we don't realize how connected physical and mental health are and going back to the basics of like, you know, if you're going through a hard time, whether that's anxiety, whether that's depression, whatever, starting with the basics of like good sleep, a good diet and exercise it. I mean, it's not. It's not a cure all for sure, but it puts you in the right direction, yeah.
Daniel Lidgren
It help. It always helps. If you have no sleep, that's probably going to be a little bit worse than if you had a good night's sleep. You're gonna feel a little bit tired. So that's just one extra element you have to overcome. So I've always found when I've performed really well, usually the night before I had a good sleep and that's always been something. I will say too, I don't know if he's a psychologist, but the Stephen Covey who wrote the 7 habits for highly effective people, the one part of that book that really stuck with me when I read it years ago and it helped with this, is the concept of the circles of control.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Lidgren
And I don't know this, this stuck with me for years. The middle circle, what you can control. Next circle what you can influence in the last circle, what you have no control over whatsoever.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Daniel Lidgren
And really the thesis is the only thing you can control is you. You can't control anybody else. You can't control anything. You can control you so you can control what you do to get ready. You can control your emotions, and that's also empowering. Like you can get upset that things aren't going well or you can say they didn't go well. Why is that and it will be better next time because now I know why that happened. So that's something that's really stuck with me and it's been something I've tried to focus on is what I can do, what I can prepare for. The judge that's going to judge me in my performance, I can't truly control how they're going to critique my performance or score me, but I can control my own performance and what I can do leading up to that to be successful.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, growth mindset, hey Joel?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, I know this is coming back to some of our other podcasts. No, I was hoping that someone would bring that up. So I totally appreciate it because I think it also goes back to again that question around how we prepare for short term stress or long term stress like one of the things that you know you brought up Katherine was, yeah, that notion of, like, the worst case scenario and like the what ifs, solid preparation for any big thing has to do with really knowing what is in your control and what's not in your control.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And there's nothing, you know, why do as you asked before, like, why is, you know, even really effective people struggle with this? It's because focusing on the what if this goes wrong or what if the bad thing happens, or what if I'm not able to breathe? Or what if this thing happens? There's nothing wrong with that. You're supposed to do that. The problem is when you don't answer the question effectively, when you just go, what if? What if, what if, and never stop to go. Oh yeah. What if this does happen…
Katherine Hurtig
And having more realistic answers, not just worst case scenarios.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. Like what can I what can I actually like? Yes. Can I actually do this? But then on top of that, it's what you were saying is like, is this actually in my control or not? Right. Like, you know, what if the judge hates me? It's like, yeah, well, what, like, is that within your control? Parts of it might be right. If they do like what I'm doing, parts of it probably aren't, and I think people who effectively manage their anxiety are ones who are really clear understanding, like you said, about what is in their control. Ultimately it's them and are really understanding of. There are parts that aren't in my control and the best I can do is deal with it when it happens.
Katherine Hurtig
And the thing you said, Dan, was talking about like you haven't gotten rid of it, but you've learned to manage it. And I think that's a really important point and something I struggled with with my own anxiety is yeah, these negative thoughts and feelings kept coming up. I'd be like, well, what's wrong with me? Like I've gone to counselling. Have all these tools like I thought that I'd get to a point where it's just I wouldn't think this way, but it's not really about that. It's like how you handle these things when they come up now and like feeling better equipped.
Daniel Lidgren
Yeah, I think this is just something I'm going to have to live with. And that’s fine because it's just part of who I am and I think overall I'm optimistic that I'm going to be able to manage it and I have been, I think for a long, long time I've been pretty good about managing it like I've competed at the World Championships multiple times, done really well. I've played really well in the solo competitions. Especially the last few years, some really good results and good performances that I can look back on. But even in amongst that, like every now and then, I'll be thinking ohh gosh like I'm kind of nervous about this event coming up and then that now puts me in a little better mindset to say, OK. OK, I I'm feeling this way, what can I do and be a little bit more proactive and positive about it, but it always comes up and I will say it comes up in my professional life too. So I have to often give public speeches or talk to members of the media or the public or elected officials and that gives me butterflies too.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure, I mean these are all like very normal situations to feel nervous, yeah.
Daniel Lidgren
Yeah, but the one nice thing is my experience with bagpiping is it actually helped me for the professional situations as well.
Katherine Hurtig
That's what I was going to ask like, how it's kind of. How you've kind of brought it into other areas of your life.
Daniel Lidgren
Yeah, I will say I have. If I have to give a big speech like being reasonably healthy, well, well rested and all of that and. I would say the preparation in that if I have to give a speech practicing it beforehand and recording myself. And that's what I what I do bagpiping is record myself and critique myself. I'll record myself giving a speech and then that helps ultimately, when I have to deliver the speech in real life.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Daniel Lidgren
And usually I'm my worst critic, and when it ultimately happens, and even if it's recorded afterwards, I'll see something and I'll usually check in with some colleagues. Well, how did you think that went? And they often are much more upbeat about it, than I am.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure.
Joel Zimmerman
Well and all that preparation is like those are all realistic things to do to prepare practice for, whether it's speech or performance, like how much of that would you not be doing if you weren't a little bit worried?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Like how much of that would you actually, you know, I think, you know, we learn to live with it. It's like, absolutely. This is the joke is that it's always there for everybody. And I think people look at how we talk about anxiety and performance anxiety cause we look at like, oh, they don't, that person doesn't have an issue with it. And we're like, why not? Because I have to struggle with this. And you know, somebody going into a performance or whatever, you know, a speech, you know, to say, well, I'm not worried, right? And it's like, well, well, why not? Does that I'm not worried, is that coming from a place of carelessness? It's like, oh, like, this job is really, really important. I'll just wing it. Like, that's not really healthy. That's not an appropriate level of arousal. You should be a little bit more worried about this. And then the other kind of version is like, I'm not worried because yeah. I'm prepared like I did the things. I got a good night's sleep and I know what I'm going to say. That makes a huge difference and so yeah, like kind of how we interpret again how we feel and say is this a bad thing that, Oh my gosh, I can't believe I have to experience this every time I, you know, get up in front of a microphone. Or is this? Yeah. Like, this is how it should feel. And it's reminding me, yeah, speak up. Talk slowly. Don't screw up, you know, be eloquent.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Like a nice way to kind of look at it is, you know, a little bit of anxiety, it means you care. It means what you're doing is important to you. And Dan, like you mentioned, yeah, your newborn. And I know you have three children now. From what you learned, like, are you noticing that you're able to kind of pass on any of these lessons to the kids yet, like, are there situations where they've come to you and expressed kind of nervousness? Are you able to help them with that?
Daniel Lidgren
I think there's been a couple of situations. I know when Sonja, she's my oldest, she was going to do a Highland dancing performance, so pretty related. Now she doesn't dance anymore, but I remember that situation she was a little bit worried about it, and I think it's a little bit different as a kid. As the impact seems a little bit less, but I did tell her “well, Sonja, think about at home when you did the dance and you enjoyed it. Think about when you went to practice last week. You were just dancing in amongst all of the other dancers. And that's what you're going to do. It's going to be in front of people you don't know. But you're still dancing with the same people.”
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Daniel Lidgren
It's still going to be fine. And I told her, “well, I'm going to be there too. So if nothing else, you can look at me in the audience and I'll be there. I'll be there smiling and I can support you.” So I probably didn't go into as much depth as I would if it were somebody older.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course. Yeah. Got to be age appropriate.
Daniel Lidgren
But I think some of what I've learned for myself, I was able to help a little bit.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Daniel Lidgren
So I I kind of suspect knowing my kids, I kind of suspect as they grow, they may experience some of the same things that I did. I mean, they are my kids, after all. They're probably a little bit like me, so I'm really hopeful I'll be able to help them, whether it's a school presentation or a sports game or something like that. I'm hopeful.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. So two things. One of them is that, yeah, you're obviously what you're talking about is incredibly important. You're giving her, you're giving your kids something to focus on. Focus on the things that. Are going to help you remember that you've done this before. Feel how it feels when you were doing it at home. Remember that you're with people that you love. Remember that I'm… you're giving her those things to visualize or things to kind of address your self-talk, and even when you talk about I'm hope you know it's probably going to happen, probably going to experience there. My kids are probably getting experience, some level of anxiety… but I'm pretty confident I'll figure it out. Like that is indicative of exactly what this anxiety can sound like when it's positive.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
I don't know what's gonna happen. I'm worried that it might be difficult, comma, but I'll probably figure it out. Or I'm hopeful that the things that I've learned will get me there. That's very different than some of my clients who come in saying I'm worried that I have anxiety when my kids have anxiety and I'm not going to help them. Or it's going to get worse and it's gonna get out of control. Those are two very different branches that lead to very different places.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
And they can snowball.
Daniel Lidgren
I would say I've been there. If you have clients like that. I've been there. I remember years ago, maybe 20 years ago when I was first going through this, I was not feeling too good about it. And I didn't think it would get better. In fact, I remember going to a doctor because I thought it was something medical and the doctor actually said, “well, why don't you just stop playing? Then you won't have to deal with this anymore.”
Katherine Hurtig
Great, great advice.
Daniel Lidgren
And I was actually pretty sad about that because I didn't want to stop. This was something I really enjoyed. But I will say to all of those people, like, if you are feeling like that, there definitely is a light at the end of the tunnel. You can overcome it and make little steps. So I didn't get to the place where I am right away. It took time. But you can get there.
Joel Zimmerman
That's the challenge with this work is that if we told you that on day one you'd be like, take a hike, what are you talking about? Right. So the, you know this mindset. Oh, I just think positively that's where the misnomers about therapy come into place. It's just like someone just gonna tell me to think positive thoughts. And it's like well, no, but kind of.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
In a very nuanced, you know time, effortful way. And so yeah. And then the other piece, I mean having kids is like an incredible learning experience. This I also have very young children, just two new ones. And I think you know, part of this is something that's really true with any anxiety it's like. You can plan for just about anything to be creative, and you can think and plan and prepare for just about anything. You can plan for anything, but you can't plan for everything. Imagine that it might be difficult in the future, but you can also recognize that you don't even know what's coming and you know the type of anxiety that your kids might have. Sure, but it might sound very different.
Katherine Hurtig
So longer term anxiety. So Joel, when someone's kind of under, you know, constant pressure for a long time. Like a demanding career competitive school program that kind of thing. How can that wear on them differently than kind of short bursts of stress?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, the that's a really common kind of question cause the hormones and the neurotransmitters and the body's physiological response to “stress” is meant to be a short burst of stuff. It's meant to be a short term reaction. There's something that I'm dealing with right now and I have to deal with it very quickly. That's evolutionarily speaking, where this comes from, there's a danger in front of me or behind me, and I need to get away right now. And that doesn't have to be a long term thing. It's actually just to get me safe. So all the things I at the end of the day does boil down if we're kind of thinking evolutionarily is like this is bad for me because I'm not safe and have to get safe. So yeah, the really, the physiological responses that your body is having are meant to be short term, and so in the long term, when they're carrying on, it can have biological and physiological impacts. So traditionally there have done studies that, yeah, do show that long term impacts of stress include like your immune system, you know, high blood pressure, heart disease, your gut health and your gastrointestinal issues, your sleep. All of these things are going to like compound. And just like roll down the hill. So you know whether it's, it's that cognitive kind of being stuck in that, like unhelpful thinking and how you're feeling but compounding with like, yeah, if one of the main stress hormones, cortisol, when it's in your body, too long and too much, it's just meant to be in your body, get your blood going. Adrenaline, same thing. It just meant to get your body going. And then it's meant to dissipate.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And if it doesn't dissipate and it stays in there, it does have effects on your body.
Katherine Hurtig
So Dan talked about how you know basic self-care, you know, sleep, diet, exercise that's helpful. What else do you work on with your clients that are experiencing this kind of thing?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, there's a lot of I mean, there's so many different pieces. I think what you talked about is really important because somebody who is under those stresses. And you say we'll just, like, get more sleep and eat better and go work out. It's like, come on like it can feel really invalidating. But the reality is when people are under stress, they look to trim fat. It's like when you're in a boat and it's a stormy weather and you're taking on water. We look to lighten the boat. So we think throwing things overboard to lighten the boat and light the load. Are the thing, but what really people do trim first. They don't trim the fat, they trim things that are really helpful for them, like sleep. They don't go to sleep. They stay up late worrying and trying to bang their head against the wall. They don't go and get enough sunshine and exercise. They don't eat right. So yeah, like adding things seems a little bit counterintuitive, but the reality of long term stress, obviously you have to be efficient with your time and what you're doing, but it is bolstering the support for those routines the healthy activities just in general are good for you. Now the reality is like general things that are good for you aren't necessarily going to solve your problem in the moment right then and there.
Katherine Hurtig
No. Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Because that's what your mind is telling you. It's trying to solve a very maybe acute problem, but yeah, that long term experience. It's about adding things. It is about keeping and maintaining. Those things that you know are generally good for you. That's like one element that. I would say.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I mean any of those like it takes effort but it is it's worth it in the long run.
Daniel Lidgren
Joel, I suspect that as far as self-care and say going to the gym –
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah.
Daniel Lidgren
If that was a thing you did and then you've experienced a lot of stress, you may you may not go to the gym, but would a would a helpful suggestion. Well if you're not going to go to the gym, try and take a small walk around the neighborhood or just something to get you going. While it's not at the same level of intensity that you need. It could be a little bit helpful.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, it's I think it's that and one of the kind of ways you have to think about that or how to get there I want to say, is to like evaluate like well what are my needs right now? Like what are the things that I'm not getting enough of or what are the things that are going to be valuable or what are the things that I usually do that that bring me value and knowing yeah, I'm probably not gonna get to do them in whole. And I just have to kind of distill it down to like, hey, what's the what's the element of this that I need the most or what's the element of this that I can get that's realistic. And yeah, I think that's a lovely was that was something that was kind of helpful for you that you kind of like picked up on over time.
Daniel Lidgren
Well, I think so. Just if I can’t do as much as I want, maybe do a little bit like…
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, something like a little bit is better than nothing for sure.
Daniel Lidgren
That that's why, like even practicing for a short period of time where it's an easy tune that I know and like.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Daniel Lidgren
Was helpful as oppose to an hour long sweat filled the practice session leading up to a competition.
Joel Zimmerman
And I think too again other things that are kind of helpful is like perspective, especially in practice you know you talked about taking a video of yourself and then like watching yourself or again how we think about this. Very often when we are especially long term stress, we get in our own heads, that's so you said it earlier. That's what people say when they're in a situation I got in my head and like, well, what does that mean? Getting in your head often kind of reflects that idea of like this echo chamber, where if we're saying bad things to us and that's bouncing around, it's only going to kind of set in motion a, you know, a negative thought spiral. So getting perspective on this, yeah, might look like videotaping yourself or in general talking about this talking with someone is always nice because you're going to get outside perspectives. But sometimes talking it out. Though the what ifs and the worst case scenarios, very often all you know when we are sitting with a client who is talking about that thing that's coming down the pipe, that is scary and they say it and then watching them talk about this thing and they say, you know, I don't really like said it. And I’ve never really said it out loud before, but doesn't sound so bad when I say it out loud and it's like, oh, OK. And so there's something, to verbally processing this, that allows you to hear it in a different way. And there's some science behind that too. But yeah, like, perspective on things is it is it as bad as you think, you know, what's kind of going on that kind of resets, how we think about things.
Katherine Hurtig
And you got up self-care. A counsellor that worked here a few years ago, said this to me and it, yeah, it was interesting it put the idea of self-care in a new light that sometimes with self-care we need to not just think about like what would feel good, but what would energize us? Because sometimes it's like, yeah, what I'm drawn to or what I feel like doing is sitting in front of the TV for hours. But maybe what would be better for me is taking that walk around the block or eating this salad instead.
Joel Zimmerman
It's often additive and it's hard to hear and hard to get around because most people who are, you know, we're not even necessarily just talking about performance anxiety we're talking about like long term under stress and to tell somebody, well, you need to add something that's gonna do something for you is hard to hear, but nonetheless valuable.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
So Joe, you and I have talked about mindset quite a bit. How does the role of your mindset play into how we approach high pressure moments? Like the difference between… you know, Dan saying like, you know, I have to win versus I want to do my best?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, I think the short answer is it does. It does play into it. I think we've said a lot of that already. You know, like you know again how I'll go back to the first thing that you said when you explained your situation, it was like what's wrong with me, like that's a that's a starting point to something and it's not the most productive starting point If nothing's wrong with you. Something's wrong with you? Good. I'm glad you asked the question, but you know, so how you how you initially I want to say, interpret how you initially interpret what's going on as normal versus problematic. That mindset plays into this. And then you know we. Can talk about a lot of things. I think maybe, you know, just in short, the thing that I'll kind of say has to do with that level of control. That one's important about like, what is in your control, what's not in your control and which ones you're focusing on. And then maybe the other piece is, yeah, like what's important? Is the outcome important or the process important? And I think for a lot of things we do focus on the outcome, the win, the acceptance, the goal. And those are important. Unfortunately sometimes you can do everything right and still not win. You can make no mistakes and still lose. And that has to play into how we react because if you recognize that it allows you to then focus on the other elements of it. So if you get no enjoyment out of the performance and all you want is the accolade and the win and you know that you can do everything right and still not get that, you have to have another piece to say well, at least I got something out of this.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
And so that's again a difficult mindsets to say, cause a mindset to have because there's lots of things that getting things something out of it, you know. Is it I learned from my mistake? Is it, I just had fun while I was up there? Like, those are things that you're allowed to focus on. And so you know how we prep for that, how we talk about that, how we talk with our kids, I think is really what… our people that we coach or teach, you know that that balance of yeah outcome’s important, and it can't be the only thing that's important.
Katherine Hurtig
Right, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
It has to be a focus. You have to focus on winning, otherwise you don't know what you're aiming for and how to get there. But you also have to be able to have the mindset to see the other elements of it.
Katherine Hurtig
This past weekend I ran a half marathon and like…
Daniel Lidgren
Yay!
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you! And I think a lot about what you just said, like during my training, it's like it's not just about that one day or that one race. It's about like every run to get there and how I've how I've improved, how I've, you know, built my stamina and I haven't necessarily gone too much faster but yeah, thinking of it as a whole instead of a part.
Daniel Lidgren
One thing I wanted to touch on that we haven't talked about.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Daniel Lidgren
Is the concept of a support network and I know maybe not everybody is fortunate enough to have a support network, but for me it was a big thing. And I'll just comment on 2 individuals that made a big difference. So number one is our mom. Is one of the most supportive people I've ever met. It's absolutely unbelievable and honestly, like when the doctor came back and said maybe you should stop playing. I honestly considered that. And when I told her that she's like that's silly. You're not stopping like you're awesome at this and like, we'll get through this and it was just so nice to have somebody behind you and she's always been like that. So if you know our mom, she kept track of every single prize I ever won. She kept like a record book of every medal, and like, is my biggest fan. Like, it's just really, really cool. So and also say my wife, ever since we've been married, she's been so supportive of me continuing on to play the pipes even as our life gets more and more busy. We have 3 kids now and she never even once suggested well, why don't you, you know, step away from that? She's said the opposite. Like, hey, do you want to join another Pipe Band and do you want to…
Katherine Hurtig
Amazing.
Daniel Lidgren
Keep going? And she's like, OK, like you're going away this weekend, can I take the kids or I'll get my sister. So I really just want to shout out to my wife. I love you very much, Sydony. And she's been like, a huge, huge supporter and has helped me continue to be able to manage the performance anxiety when it comes up.
Joel Zimmerman
What difference did it make?
Daniel Lidgren
Well it makes a huge difference, to have somebody behind you coming up with it and then continuing is a big deal, so. You know, if anybody's struggling with this, if you have somebody you can talk to that you really trust that you think might give you a positive push, I would say reach out to them.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And Joel, like in your professional opinion, how does that, how does community, how do these relationships help us through anxiety?
Joel Zimmerman
The reality of this, that there are so many influences that are going on in any moment. In any moment of performance where we're trying to succeed and be at our best. You know, I almost kind of imagine it like everything's influencing us how we think, how we're feeling, what we ate, where our mind is at, what's our mood at, whose voice is in our head, whose voice is in the audience. Like all of those things have to matter. So you have to get tremendous support system. I don't like. I think it's, you know, it's probably difficult for people who feel like they don't. The challenge is it's like finding the right people and making sure that they're providing the right kinds of messages, you know, coaching and support is really, really challenging because it's, you know, for any athlete or for anybody who trains and wants to get better at something and having a good coach makes or breaks it.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
But also your attitude makes or breaks it, you know? So if you have, it's a two way street because the I'm gonna say athlete or the person who's the performer needs to be receptive to critical feedback needs to be able to not get defensive and not globalize what they're being told. So if you're saying you're not doing X right, you need to be able to say, OK, yeah, I need to work on that. And you're not saying anything bad about me as a person. It's just this one thing I'm going to work on that as opposed to being like you think X is bad. You must think I'm terrible. What do you mean, X about I'm doing now, right? What are you talking about? You're blind, coach. So that's your responsibility. But the coach’s responsibility is to deliver that information because some coaches are able to say “hmm, you're doing X a little bit wrong. Let's tighten that up a little bit.” Some coaches say “you suck.” That's not good coaching. That's not going to actually help you at all. So you have to also be able to give kind of good feedback. So again. In the guise of support. Yeah, having it and having the most helpful versions of that have to be a part of it for sure.
Katherine Hurtig
Dan. What's like, what's maybe one thing you've learned from performing over the years that you wish you could go back and tell your younger self about handling nerves, handling that pressure?
Daniel Lidgren
That's a good question. It would probably be a number of things. So firstly that if you do enjoy it, keep doing it and try and harness the best parts of the anxiety and stress like you said, Kath, if you feel it, it's probably because you care. It's probably because it's important to you, so consider that, that the stress is and could be a good thing. And also I would say be optimistic and be hopeful. If things aren't good right now and if you're not doing well, it can be better and it might not be better right away. You might have to work hard at it, but it can get better. And that's one thing for me, is constantly pushing myself to be optimistic and to be hopeful because I think that will help drive me to be better both in terms of bagpiping and in other aspects of my life.
Katherine Hurtig
And Joel, any last thing you want to leave our listeners with about managing performance anxiety?
Joel Zimmerman
I think your story Dan, has just kind of helped me solidify this notion that I know has been true and it came from I'm a psychologist that we work with the Calgary Counselling Centre we consult with. But this idea of like what you focus on, you amplify. Whether it's your thoughts or how you feel in your body, being mindful about being mindful of how you feel, being mindful of what's in your head and being mindful of what's going on in your body and being aware of it, having an understanding of it to know what it is so we're not panicking when we see it and using it, harnessing it appropriately.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Thank you so much to both of you. Thank you, Dan for coming in and sharing your story.
Daniel Lidgren
Thank you so much. Long time listener first time caller.
Katherine Hurtig
And thank you as always, Joel.
Joel Zimmerman
Love it. Thank you very much.
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to living fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in. This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, Manuel Montano, Jenna Forbes and by me. Katherine Hurtig.
A special thanks to Daniel Lidgren and Joel Zimmerman.
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We’re available in your favorite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment, Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling to anyone in Alberta with no wait list and no financial barriers. Find us online calgarycounselling.com and counsellingalberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 211 if you are outside of Canada and the US seek help from your General Medical practitioner.