Season 2, Episode 18: Finding Help and Hope in the Face of Domestic Abuse
Warning: This episode includes discussions of domestic abuse. Listener discretion is advised.
In this episode, we talk to Stefan De Villiers, Christine Berry, and Kyle Ho – counsellors at Calgary Counselling Centre - about the many forms of abuse beyond the physical, including emotional, financial, digital, and spiritual abuse, and the often-hidden impacts these those who have experienced the abuse. We talk about how to recognize early signs of abuse, such as controlling behaviours, and offer guidance on supporting loved ones safely.
We also cover the complexities of helping people who have used abuse, emphasizing the role of empathy and accountability in their journey toward change. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provides non-judgmental support through individual and group programs for both victims and those who have used abuse. Our goal is to support growth, rebuild self-esteem, and provide a path forward for those affected by the emotional toll of abuse.
Understanding Domestic Violence and Abuse: Key Takeaways From This Episode
Here’s a breakdown of the insights shared by our counsellors in this important conversation.
Recognizing different types of abuse
Abuse is multifaceted—it can be emotional, financial, digital, spiritual, and even legal. Emotional abuse, for example, can leave deep wounds by affecting self-esteem and self-worth. By understanding the various forms of abuse, we can spot the early warning signs and understand their impact.
2. Supporting people who have experienced abuse
It can be difficult to support someone experiencing abuse. In this episode, we discuss how to create a safe space free of judgment and offer gentle support.
3. Addressing those who have used abuse
This episode also discusses the complex issue of supporting people who have used abusive behaviours. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta’s programs for these individuals focus on accountability without shame. Counsellors work to build self-awareness and help participants recognize the impact of their actions while encouraging healthier, more respectful behaviours.
4. Moving forward: resources and empathy
Healing from abuse requires support, empathy, and access to resources. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta offer individual and group counselling for victims and those who have used abuse. Through non-judgmental, empathetic guidance, we help individuals move forward and rebuild their lives.
If you or someone you know might be experiencing abuse, remember—you are not alone. There are people who understand and are ready to help.
-
Katherine Hurtig
A quick warning, this episode contains discussions of domestic abuse and violence. Listener discretion is advised.
Welcome to Living Fully, a podcast dedicated to enhancing your mental well -being. Each episode explores valuable insights and practical strategies to help you lead a more fulfilling life. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig. In this episode we're talking about abuse, not just physical but the many different forms it can take. These types can be just as harmful but sometimes they're harder to recognize so we're going to get into how to spot these signs early on and the impact they can have we're also going to talk about what you can do if you think you or someone you love might be experiencing abuse. It can be tough to know where to start or how to help so we'll be hearing from our counsellors on the best ways to support victims safely. We also talk about the complexities of addressing people who have used abuse. We explore the process of accountability, growth, and change without shame. We'll learn how counsellors help people who have experienced and used abuse to move forward from the emotional scars of violence, and the important role empathy plays in this process.
…
Stefan, Chris and Kyle, thank you so much for being here with me today. Let's go around, do a little bit of intros, tell us about yourself and your background. Chris, do you want to start us off?
Christine Berry
Thanks, Katherine. My name is Christine Berry and I am the director of the Family Violence Program at the Calgary Counselling Centre. I have been here since 2003, so I've had a lot of experience working in the area of domestic violence. I'm a psychologist by trade, and I really like working at Calgary Counselling Centre.
Katherine Hurtig
Awesome. Thanks so much. Stefan.
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah. Hi, Katherine. So great to be here. My name is Stefan De Villiers. I am the family violence team lead. So I support Chris in her work, and I started in 2019 at the agency. I actually started in Kyle's role as the coordinator of the male domestic abuse outreach program. And now I work more generally in the family violence program. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here.
Katherine Hurtig
Thanks so much.
Kyle Ho
Hi, Katherine.
Katherine Hurtig
Hi.
Kyle Ho
My name is Kyle, Kyle Ho, so the male domestic abuse outreach coordinator. Grateful to be here. So, you know, like Stefan, my previous worker and then Chris, my supervisor, I have different generation of like working in the DV program.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's right.
Kyle Ho
Yeah, so for my background, I'm also kind of like a newcomer, just been in Calgary for three years. And I'm working as a counsellor to work with the main victim side of the DV.
Katherine Hurtig
Excellent. So yeah, today we are talking about domestic violence, abuse. We're going to get into all kinds of topics here. To start out, like what are some of the different types of abuse that people can experience? Kind of beyond physical abuse. I think that's what pops into our head when we hear the term abuse. But what other types are there?
Kyle Ho
Oh definitely, Katherine. So like physical abuse is the most easiest to identify, right? So but then other than this kind of abuse, there's different kind, for example, emotional, psychological abuse, financial abuse, spiritual abuse, legal abuse, or new kind of like will be like digital abuse as well. So there are different kinds of abuse happening so far.
Katherine Hurtig
And what are those what are those look like? You've mentioned the terms, but what so emotional and psychological, like that kind of abuse? What does that look like?
Kyle Ho
Well, like, let's say, for example, like for the emotional abuse first. So it's mainly attacking about like the people's feeling and thought about it. And then like questioning about the irrational belief and everything that like they're not worth it. And I've attacked them through the emotional, like just like letting them down and affect them to be questioning about themselves a lot. It's more kind of like irrational belief stuff rather than just like physical abuse attacking.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay. And spiritual abuse, that one I haven't heard of.
Kyle Ho
So like for spiritual abuse, it involves about like the misuse about the religious or like spiritual belief to control, manipulate or like to exploit on individuals. So it could be happening in different contexts, like in a religious church or like personal relationship as well. So it will be more like victims will be experiencing about, you know, confusion, guilty, cries of faith. That abuse could be destroying their spiritual belief and make them feel more guilty and unable to continue to stay in their religious community or spiritually.
Katherine Hurtig
And then, sorry, digital abuse. You said that's kind of a new concept lately?
Kyle Ho
Yeah, for sure. So for digital abuse, it's involved about the use of technology. You know, the new generation have a lot of technology, right? So it's like smartphone, social media or other online platform to try to control, harass or manipulate someone. So it's including the behaviors of cyber stalking, you know.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay. Yeah.
Kyle Ho
Constantly monitoring or a lot of forced communication with the partners, right? So the victim would be experiencing a significant privacy issue that's full of tracking apps, hacking accounts, or unwanted supervising, right? So it affects the victim's mental health and they'd be socially isolated due to this type of abuse.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay. In the context that you're describing these kinds of abuse, are we focusing just on kind of between intimate partners or more broadly?
Kyle Ho
Well, I would say like for the definition of domestic violence, we usually think about intimacy partner to their partners, right? But then also it happens in like family side, parents, mother, and then to their children. Like you see, DV has the like power dynamics from there. There's a huge part differences in between the victim and abuse. It could be like a relationship on that part as well.
Katherine Hurtig
So emotional abuse, how can this kind of differ from other forms? What kind of impact can it have? I mean, obviously, physical abuse, there's physical signs that you can see. Yeah, what's the impact of emotional abuse?
Kyle Ho
So I can hear at least four types of biggest issues for experiencing emotional abuse. So first of all, affecting the victim's self-esteem and self-worthiness. They feel like constantly criticized by humiliation by their abuser. And then like the victim who feels like internalized their irrational belief and lead them to have a lot of self-doubt. So questioning about themselves a lot. Also affecting their mental health as well. So a high risk of mental health issues such as depression, anxiety, PTSD throughout the domestic issue, which will lead the client maybe rely on substance to cope with the mental health issue as well. So thirdly, what about the trust issue? People like put a lot of energy and effort to the relationship. But then like due to the emotional abuse, it's impaired about a person's ability to form and maintain about a healthy relationship, right? So the trust issue be impacted and then difficult for the people to be trusting other people again, and then difficult for them to set up healthy boundaries again due to the trust issue from the previous relationship. The last part will be autonomous and then decision-making. So under the DV situation, victim may be a lot of time will be undermined their individual ability to make decisions and rely on their partners all the time.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Kyle Ho
Yeah, so they will affect their own needs and ability to make decisions and then always think that they need to get permission from their partners.
Katherine Hurtig
Stefan, Chris, what's been your experience over the years with clients? What impact do you see in terms of like any kind of domestic violence or abuse? How does it impact people?
Christine Berry
When I think about some of the folks that I've worked with and how they've been affected by some of the behaviors that have been used with them, like being criticized, being humiliated, being forced to explain all of their decisions. It leaves a sense of something's wrong with me. There's something wrong with me. And there's then that you don't trust your own decision making. The other thing about emotional abuse is it's often invisible because the wound is to the person's sense of self. Do they feel good about themselves or do they feel bad about themselves? Do they feel it's all their fault? So there's that constant kind of knocking down of the person's sense of who they are and what their value is. And again, with physical abuse, there's often very visible injuries. Emotional abuse, not so much. So it's important to know that if there's the other kinds of abuse happening, there's also the emotional abuse. It's the umbrella. Right. It covers all the rest.
Stefan De Villiers
And building on that, I think what I've heard from a lot of my clients is that, you know, even when there has been physical abuse, the thing that lingers the most for people is the emotional abuse. Like Chris was talking about the breaking down of the self, the losing of confidence in your own ability to make decent decisions. It also impacts people's ability to make like future relationships. You hear this a lot from people where they're like, well, I don't know if I can ever be in an intimate partner relationship again, because how do I know? Like, I thought this person was a good person for me. I thought they were going to be my life partner. And it turned out into a horror show. And, you know, how can I now go out and try that again? I don't trust myself to be able to do that. So there's the breaking down of the self. But then there's also kind of like the breaking down and trust in other people. There's the breaking down and seeing the world as a place that's dangerous and scary. And, you know, when you're in that place of fear, it's really hard to take in new information and build new kinds of healthy relationships.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I mean, it would be really traumatic.
Stefan De Villiers
Exactly.
Katherine Hurtig
And so, yeah, how might someone kind of recognize the early warning signs of, you know, any of this kind of abuse? I guess, like, let's start by, like, how would someone recognize it in their own relationship?
Stefan De Villiers
I mean, I think you want to trust your gut, right? Like, you want to listen to, is something feeling off? Because a lot of times what people say is like, oh, there were some warning signs early on in the relationship. But I sort of pushed them aside. I said, oh, that doesn't really matter. It's not important. You know, and, you know, when they look back afterwards, they realize, oh, well, you know, if I had paid attention to that earlier, maybe this wouldn't have gotten as bad as it has gotten. So I think, you know, kind of listening to your own gut, if you're not sure, like asking other people outside of your own bubble.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, kind of like, is this behavior normal?
Stefan De Villiers
Exactly, exactly. Just to get that outside perspective, you know, whether that's a friend or a family doctor or a counsellor, obviously we're counsellors, so therapy can be an incredibly useful place to go. But, you know, really paying attention to what you're, you know, what your sense is. It doesn't mean that there is abuse happening, but there might be some unhealthy dynamics going on in the relationship that need to be addressed before it turns into abuse.
Christine Berry
I think one of the other things to look for if you're in a relationship, they tend to start off fairly, most relationships, there's a bit of a honeymoon period. If you notice that that's no longer kind of happening, there's no room in the relationship for disagreements that one person's opinions and decisions are what is being followed through on, that there's a sense of you being interrogated, that there's a kind of effort to isolate you from people that you would typically be around. There's this constant interrogation. Where have you been? Who have you been with? Are you wearing that? So there's these kinds of monitoring behaviors that start to occur that are really good early warning signs to pay attention to.
Katherine Hurtig
Kyle, did you want to add something?
Kyle Ho
Yeah, it feels like Stefan and Chris have mentioned a couple of good points. And the last part I would like to add would be like get more prepared of yourself, for example, education yourself more about like the information and the learning about domestic violence. All know about all the details, but maybe sometimes the only form that we know about abuse would be like physical abuse, but actually there's a different kind of form coming up to happening that's also kind of domestic violence. The more you have more knowledge about it to understand more about this form and then what will be designed, the more you will realize what's going on around in your life. Or maybe your friends that may be suffering in domestic violence, you're also able to inform them or let them know about a situation that they can earlier identify themselves, that they're facing domestic violence and seek help with other professionals know, to deal with the situation as well.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. So, so learn more about it. So you can kind of identify when things don't seem quite right.
Kyle Ho
That's correct.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Christine Berry
I think one of the, again, one of the more important kind of early warning signs is that I've often heard people say, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. Like I have to be so careful. What I say and what I do, because there's going to be a consequence. There's going to be a negative consequence. there's that constant tension that you're aware of and you just want it to break so that there's a little bit of calm or peace.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I think that's an important point because it's, and correct me if I'm wrong, you guys are definitely more in this world than myself, but probably a lot of people either don't recognize that they're in an abusive relationship or they don't want to admit it. So language like that, I think that’s a lot more relatable – walking on eggshells, feeling tense - I think people can identify with that quite easily.
Christine Berry
Always having to explain myself. Always having to tell the person where our money is going or why the gasoline in the car is down. So there's this constant monitoring of what you've been doing. And after a while you're going, wait a minute, this isn't kind of something that other people do. Why is it that I am being monitored? Why is it that this person wants to control my every activity? And so there's that sense of always being, as I said, invalidated, always being pushed to do something you maybe didn't want to do.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. So if someone's experiencing, you know, these red flags are coming up, these signs are happening to them, they have this feeling that something's not right in their relationship, what's the first step that someone can take if they think that they might be experiencing abuse?
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing is just acknowledge how hard it is to be in that situation. Like Chris said, it's often people are in a state of fear, right? They're feeling controlled, they're feeling isolated, and that's really a common denominator for the different types of abuse is that people are not necessarily able to talk to friends or family or others because their behavior is being surveilled or controlled. So when you're in that state, it can be really difficult to reach out for help. But, you know, the first thing is really just to be honest with yourself and check in with yourself and say, like, am I in a good place right now?
The thing about abuse is that it thrives in secrecy and in darkness. And so the way to counteract that is really to start to talk about it with whoever you can find that will listen to you. You know, I mentioned earlier family doctors, therapists, family, friends. You know, some people are more trained on how to support people, but even like the Distress Centre can be a good place to start. There are multiple family violence community organizations that's specialized in helping people to make safety plans and assess for their risk. So there are a lot of resources, but the first step is always just kind of checking in with yourself, being honest with yourself, And then taking as small a step as you possibly can take to kind of break the silence, whatever that might look like for you.
Katherine Hurtig
So I have a couple questions around that. Like you guys were mentioning earlier that, you know, regardless of the type of abuse you may be experiencing, it really impacts your self -esteem, how you feel about yourself. I mean, if that's the case, if it's really, you know, if you're questioning your worth, like that process of, you know, being honest with yourself, checking in with yourself, like, does that become tricky? Because it's like, are people thinking, are people thinking, you know, maybe I deserve this or?
Stefan De Villiers
Absolutely. There's a lot of self -blame that goes into this. And, you know, that's part of the abuse cycle often is that the abuser will make you feel like it's your fault. Right. Like I hear this from clients where it's like, well, you know, if I hadn't stepped out of line, if I just hadn't, you know, done this thing, then I wouldn't have gotten, you know, attacked or hurt. So there is that sense that it's my fault. But usually there is always that kernel, that part inside of people that is like there's a tension there, right? The one side is like broken down, but that other side is there that's like something, you know, this isn't all my fault. Maybe like maybe 99 % is my fault, but 1 % is not. And so it's really getting to a place where you can listen to that voice as well. And this isn't easy stuff, right? There's a reason why people stay in situations of abuse, you know, because it is incredibly difficult if you're being given this message that you're broken and that you don't have any value to kind of break out of that. But, you know, people do. And, you know, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. There is a side beyond the abuse to get there is a tough road to walk. But I think the important message for people out there is that they're not alone and that there are people that understand what they're going through, that have lived through that and have gotten to another side and to a much better life.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Because I'm sure the whole experience feels pretty isolating. You know, I think, you know, any kind of experience with mental health, you do kind of feel like, you know, I'm the only one feeling this. I'm the only one going through it.
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah.
Christine Berry
Often I've had individuals say, I felt crazy.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Christine Berry
And the, I mean, I think about abuse. Abuse is very purposeful. There's a reason why someone uses abuse. They want to have control over the other person. They want to be in charge. They want to be the person that makes all of the decisions. And so there's a purpose behind it. So you might ask yourself, what would the purpose be for my partner to try to convince me I'm crazy? Why would this person want to distort my reality? Because there's a lot of trying to convince the person that what they think is happening isn't happening. So you ask yourself kind of, what would be the upside for that individual to have me think that way? And so you can kind of start to question your own thinking. But I think what Stefan said is important is to reach out to somebody and say, you know, this is what happened. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What do you think about it? Because it can be hard to get through those tendrils of kind of tactics where the intent is to get you to question yourself. The intent is to get you to say nothing. The intent is to keep you quiet.
Katherine Hurtig
And you said that it's purposeful. Does that mean that, you know, people who cause harm, people use abuse? So, yeah, people who use abuse, does that mean that they know what they're doing, that this is like a plan or it's what they want to do? Does that make sense?
Christine Berry
So if you think about what would be the purpose behind this, so we all do what we do to get our needs met. And so you would ask yourself, what would be the need that's getting met by this person? So the need is that they feel powerful. They feel omnipotent. They may have a crap job and have absolutely no power in the world, but here's a place where they can feel very powerful. Is it a conscious decision? Yes, I would say it's a choice. Because when we work with people making changes, that is the thing that we work on the most is you made these kinds of choices to harm others. Now you can make different choices to be in a relationship where you're not being harmful, where you're thinking about ways of respecting people, where you're thinking about ways of kind of ensuring safety and cooperation and not kind of working on coercing that person or frightening that person into obeying you. So do I think it's deliberate? Yes, I do.
Katherine Hurtig
Well, and I think it's an important message to get across is this idea of change and kind of instilling hope. Like, you know, I don't have to behave this way and I don't have to experience abuse. there is light at the end of the tunnel?
Christine Berry
Absolutely. We, at the agency, of course, we do a lot of research and we looked at some data over five years for individuals that were in the Responsible Choices for Men family violence group. And we looked at that data and there was over 400 individuals in there. And over half of them, when we did look at their outcomes, Over half of them improved or result in terms of outcomes, so they got better. There was change that happened. And I think it's a really important component of working with anything to do with behavior change.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Christine Berry
You have to believe you can do it. It has to make sense for you. There has to be an upside to it. And we also know that for many individuals who harm others, they didn't kind of get born into the world going, gee, I hope I grow up to become somebody who is really, really mean and harmful to my kids.
Katherine Hurtig
No, yeah.
Christine Berry
That doesn't happen. So it's important that there's hope there, that if you recognize what you're doing is not good, it's toxic, then you can make different choices.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay, you mentioned the Responsible Choices for Men group. Tell me a bit about that. Like, what is this program, who's this program for? What does it do?
Christine Berry
So we have in the Calgary Counselling Centre, we have groups for individuals who use abuse. We have a group for women who use abuse. We have groups for men who use abuse. And we also have groups for individuals who've been abused, for females who've been abused and for males who've been abused. So we look at all kind of different components. And when you look at change, one of the important things that we ask is, is this person ready? to make a change? If you've been sent here, you're probably not as motivated as you could be. And so the first thing we start to look at is what is the upside to this person to making a change? So we look at readiness to change. We have all kinds of ways of doing that. So the person starts to kind of move along that path where they give up the denial that there's a problem. Because in order to solve a problem, you have to first accept that there is a problem. And that you're part of the problem and believe that you also are part of the solution to the problem. And so we really look at ways to motivate people to move away from, you know, blaming others and kind of take an internal sense of kind of ownership around that. So the first thing we look at is, are they actually ready to move into a group? They have to be at least contemplative. That they know there's a problem. And the other kind of really important part of working with the responsible choices is to think about all of the feelings that come along. When you are engaging behavior that is shameful, you're probably going to feel ashamed. And that is a very, very difficult emotion. It's one of the most difficult emotions I think that we can tolerate. And yet to see that that can be a really helpful part of who you are because there's shame that is toxic and there's shame that's helpful. And so what is your shame telling you it's important for you to pay attention to?
Katherine Hurtig
So are you saying it's kind of like a motivator?
Christine Berry
It's part of being able to sit with it as a poise rather than trying to avoid it.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Christine Berry
Because it doesn't feel great.
Katherine Hurtig
No.
Christine Berry
But you can use it as part of if you're able to sit with it and see what value it has for you, it's given you a message that what you're doing is not good for you. And so how can it help you make different choices? So we look at there's a lot of emotions involved and there's a lot of needing to regulate those emotions. We know there's lots of trauma involved in families where there's domestic violence. And there may have been, I think somebody mentioned earlier, post-traumatic stress disorder, where your ability to regulate your kind of emotionality is disturbed. And so you are reactive very quickly as opposed to responsible and able to calm and settle and soothe. So those are important components. And I think the other really big part of the group is that they're with their peers. And so they're learning that they're not alone, that others also have this problem, and they can support each other as they kind of look at difficult things together.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's got to be so important. What advice do you guys have for people that want to support, you know, maybe a friend, family member, someone in their lives that may be experiencing this?
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, that's a really great question. You know, when I was in Kyle's role, actually, we would get a lot of calls from family members who were like, you know, my son, my brother, my cousin, they're going through a rough time. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to support them. And it can be incredibly difficult for family members and friends because there is a sense of helplessness of like you're seeing this. There's not much you can do necessarily to force them to leave that situation. But there are things that you can do to be a resource for that person, you know. And so one thing I would say is to really follow the lead of the person. I think what sometimes happens is that people want to jump into advice giving and telling people what to do or, you know, to leave or whatever. Typically, that doesn't work very well.
Katherine Hurtig
Why is that?
Stefan De Villiers
Well, you know, it's an interesting question. I think it's because in some ways you're reinforcing a message to that person by telling them what to do, that they are not competent, that they are not capable. And so it's just feeding that shame that they already have. They're broken. They're defective. They're not good enough. They're not worthy. And most of us probably don't like to be told what to do. You know, it's pretty human, I think, reaction. But what we can do is really be there as a listening ear and to just, you know, I think it's okay to communicate to a friend or family member that, you know, you're worried about them and that you're concerned about how they're doing. Because that gives them some outside perspective again that, you know, okay, yeah, this isn't just them that's, you know, having these doubts. It's like other people are seeing something going on here, right? So that outside perspective is really important.
Katherine Hurtig
So that's okay? That's something you recommend, you know, saying that you'd notice that this is going on?
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, I would say that's okay. I would be careful where you do it, though, right? Like you wouldn't want to do that in front of, say, the person who is being abusive, right? Because that could create some real risk for that person because that might then make the abuser feel shame, right? And they don't want to be publicly shamed. And then they might take that out on their partner or their family member behind closed doors. So it is really important to think about when you're communicating with the person and how you're communicating with the person. But yeah, just really being that listening ear, following their lead in terms of what they need, you know, providing resources, you know, not pushing it on to the person, but saying like, you know, I have these resources. Are you interested in me sending these to you? How would it be okay for me to send them to you so that the abuser doesn't see them? You know, like providing resources but having no expectations and just really being that nonjudgmental presence.
Katherine Hurtig
And resources like, you know, community support, counselling, that kind of thing?
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, so there's lots of community, family violence specific organizations that you can provide them the link to or phone numbers to. And therapy, like our organization is obviously on that list as well that people can reach out to. And sometimes our organization is really a good resource to give because it's not family violence specific. So even if the person who was doing the abuse was to see that resource, they wouldn't necessarily think it was about the abuse. And so there might be more opportunity for somebody to connect with us and get some help.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, just to kind of dig a little deeper here, like what have you seen or, you know, what do you think are common mistakes that family or friends might make in trying to help someone? I mean, obviously, unintentional mistakes, but it can happen.
Stefan De Villiers
I think often it's more that kind of the family members get anxious and they get worked up and they want to have something happen. And so there's that kind of like, well, you should leave. You should do this. You should do that. You should, you know, pack your bags and go. And sometimes it can also be sound a bit blaming, right? It's like, why aren't you leaving? Why aren't you doing this? Why aren't you doing that? Again, it's coming from a place of caring. It's coming from a place of wanting to see their person thrive. But, you know, when we're communicating in that way, what it's communicating to the other person is like, well, you know, I'm worthless. I'm stupid. I'm dumb. I'm broken. I'm all of these things. And, you know, this is just one more piece of evidence that that's true, like all the things that my abuser is telling me, they're true, right? So we want to help create a kind of a counter narrative to that, right? So really reinforcing the things that they are doing to keep themselves safe, the things that they are doing to survive. It's really hard. And sometimes people don't see what they're doing to resist. You know, like resistance isn't like punching your abuser back. It's like resistance is like making sure you're keeping yourself safe and your kids safe, if there are kids in the picture as well. Like maybe you aren't, you know, being assertive in a particular moment, but probably that's a good thing because if you were being assertive in that moment, you might suffer the consequences. So there are very broad ways that a person can resist abuse. And so really focusing on those things rather than focusing on what they're doing wrong, so to speak.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course. Yeah. And so there's shame about what's going on. There's this fear. So what do you recommend that someone do about kind of overcoming that fear of seeking help? Whether they're a victim themselves or they are someone who has used abuse.
Stefan De Villiers
I think we talked a bit about people who are victims themselves. I think for people that are using abuse, I mean, I've worked with a few folks where they know what they're doing is wrong and they don't want to do it. But they also don't know how to stop. And that can be for a variety of reasons, right? It might be that that was modeled for them when they were growing up. And so that's how they think you resolve conflict. Right. It could be that they're addicted to substances, which often goes alongside with domestic abuse. And so their inhibitions are limited. And so they don't know how to regulate themselves without using substances. You know, and then there's the gender piece of it. Like, especially if we're talking about men who use violence, like the message that a lot of men get is that, you know, they have to be strong, independent. They have to be the problem solver, the provider, all of that. They're the leader in the family. And, you know, when they're struggling, they don't necessarily know what to do about that.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Stefan De Villiers
And then it comes out in maladaptive ways. So if we can create an environment where we can kind of normalize that it's actually it's a show of strength to ask for help. And that it's actually a brave thing, courageous thing to say, like, I have a problem. I think that would really change the dynamic for some of these men where they're like, yeah, like, I want to change. And it's OK to acknowledge that I've made mistakes. And it's OK to get some support for the things I'm struggling with. And there is a different way of being in relationship with other people.
Katherine Hurtig
How do you see that message changing? I know it's definitely a message we try to put out there that, yeah, it is. It's a sign of strength to ask for help. But I mean, it's a lot easier said than done if that if the opposite of that is so ingrained.
Stefan De Villiers
I do think it's changing like culturally, like I, you know, there's, I mean, I think, what is it like 40% of our, our client base at CCC close to that is men, you know, coming out for, for counselling and, you know, yes, more women than men are coming. But, you know, there's a significant number of men that are saying, yeah, like this is a valuable way of addressing some of the things I struggle with.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Stefan De Villiers
And there's, you know, there's not any shame in talking about my feelings or talking about what I'm struggling with. So I do, especially in the younger generations, I think that has changed. And maybe Kyle, you can talk about that as well. That, you know, I think certain cultures are a bit more ingrained. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, overall, I do see a change, see change in the culture. I don't know. Do you agree with that or do you have a different perspective?
Kyle Ho
It feels like we're talking about like not just only abuser or victims, like more people are aware about the situation. And they, as we talked about before, like first step is why it's so difficult to achieve it. They feel like I don't want to do it. I don't want to make the changes. So what they feel like, again, like it's all about shame and guilt, right? But then like what I'm over years working on this post, working mainly with the victims, I can see that like they most of them have a lot of question and a lot of worry about that. Like, am I seeking help is a good idea or am I seeking help is a good chance for myself to change. But then like more also like what we talk about, they feel weird about it because like I sounds like I'm the only person facing this situation and no one would like to. But more conversation or like start up the topic with them, they're realizing not just only themselves. There are more and more people coming in and like observing about this problem. They're willing to come for counselling and deal with the situation. That's a good sign.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, more people are coming and more people are coming who are like them.
Kyle Ho
Yeah, that's the truth. So they're realizing that like there's actually someone willing to listen to their story, trust them they're being abused, and they're like willing to provide service to them and help them to recover from the situation. But on the other side, it feels like that's still a little bit difficult because as Stefan mentioned about men have their figures, powerful, tough, and not easy to open up their mind and share about it. And that's the reason more men will hesitate about seeking for service, the situation. But I'm grateful that our agency is willing to provide an opportunity for the men to have a better understanding. So we do outreach program for men and boys to have a more understanding about like why mental health is important to themselves and also like why it will be a great opportunity for them to seek help with others professional to talk open up themselves to talk about their topic.
Katherine Hurtig
So what does that look like, what is this outreach, I mean you're not just walking up to people on the street like how does this work?
Kyle Ho
I mean this part will be like great opportunity for Chris to open up to cover because like especially I did outreach as well but then my outreach will be a little bit different from their program so for my outreach program is like um so my outreach program mainly working with the men victim who are experiencing domestic violence right so I would like it's just kind of like an opportunity for them to have a start up the topic and talk about how they would like to seek out with and open up to understand more about like what they can receive from the service right but that program would be more open-minded to talk about different topics or like have a insight about for the men to know about like how important for men to have so I'll pass it to Chris to cover.
Christine Berry
Thanks, Kyle. The important thing, I think, is to meet the person where they're at, wherever that may be. So going out to that person's space is very much part of our outreach programs. And so the Men and Boys Outreach Program is doing that, going out and having conversations with young males in places where they congregate, whether that is in schools, whether that's in sports, whether that is in community. And so just kind of showing up and being there and opening up conversations. The important component when working with this area is that of being very non-judgmental.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, yeah.
Christine Berry
It's really, really important to not shame, blame, or somehow send a message that you're deficit because you're male.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, well, I wouldn't think that that, I wouldn't think that, you know, judging and blaming would be a motivator for change for pretty much anyone.
Christine Berry
It’s one of the fears. It's often what gets in the way. If I act this way, will someone call me this name. If I act this way, will somebody see me as less than? And so we have to be aware of the underlying fears that can make it difficult for people to speak out. And so again, going out to wherever the people are that are open to listening to your conversations. This is a fairly new program and it's focused on emerging adults. So we want to talk about ages 13 to 25. And again going out into the schools, getting community leaders to kind of help us understand what are the messages we want to get out there? What are the ways that we want to do this work? Because it is very significant and we know there's a lot of young people that are struggling with mental health issues, with anxiety, with depression, with many of those things.
Katherine Hurtig
So kind of going back to people who use abuse, you know, in your work, Chris, How do you go about accountability and taking ownership of their behavior without shaming them?
Christine Berry
I think that's a really important question. And the approach is to be very empathetic, is to be very non-judgmental, and to focus on skills and values. So what is it that this person values in their life? And are they enacting that value? And what would they have to change so that they would be enacting that value? So you're looking towards what do they prefer in terms of the life that they're leading, as opposed to the life that they have now that probably often leaves them feeling really, really ashamed and not very good about themselves. So looking at kind of what skill will help them get there is really important. And working with the individuals to recognize there's usually a tell. There's usually an early warning sign. You may be thinking a bit more aggressively. Your kind of somatic symptoms may be giving you a signal that you're starting to become aroused. You're starting to become... What would that look like? So you're starting to get elevated. So your vision is starting to narrow. You can feel the blood pounding. You're breathing rapidly. Okay. So there's almost a hyperventilation. And so being aware of your own early warning signs so that you settle down, that you soothe and that you calm. Before, if you say zero to ten, when are you first aware that you're starting to get agitated?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Christine Berry
And taking action right before that time so that you're kind of always working on staying in a calm state, that you're kind of working with the arousal system, the autonomic nervous system, that you want to keep that as regulated as you can. So there's those kinds of skills that you teach. And then the most important thing, I think, is just to kind of teach that there's a different way to have a relationship with shame, that it can, too, be something valuable to you, that it can be teaching you something as opposed to something you try to run away from.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Christine Berry
Because without it, where would we be?
Katherine Hurtig
Without the shame, where would we be?
Christine Berry
Without those kinds of things to tell us that this is not okay.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay, yeah.
Christine Berry
Where would we be? Because that's what shame does. It tells you, oh, there's something going on here you need to pay attention to because it doesn't feel good.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Christine Berry
And if we didn't have those kind of natural stoppers, I think that we would have a lot more difficulty in our society.
Katherine Hurtig
The clients you've worked with, are they kind of surprised by that, by the approach around shame? One of the difficulties is naming it.
Christine Berry
Yeah. Is naming, there's this flood. I don't know what it is. There's just this flood, flood of emotions. But to be able to discriminate and say, is that sadness? Is that anger? Is that, what is that? What is it that you're actually kind of expressing or feeling at this moment? Let's give it a name. Let's give it a language. And let's look at it in a different way rather than this kind of big, vague kind of rush that you have no way of really understanding. So a lot of it is about understanding the emotional landscape. And again, it's not something that in this society that we spend a lot of time on with our male population, trying to understand the emotional landscape. And also there may be different ways that you articulate your emotions. You may do things differently than perhaps a person down the street does. So we're wanting to kind of teach people about their bodies as well. And that can be, for some individuals, that can be like, I had no idea. I had no idea that that's what was going on because I've always known it to be that way. I didn’t know that that's what's going on in the brain, that there's a threat system in the brain that kicks on and that you have to be able to turn it down, turn it off. So there's a lot of being self -aware about what's going on somatically.
Katherine Hurtig
Can that self-awareness kind of lead to at least a desire to make changes?
Christine Berry
It's kind of more complex than that because if you've been turning that system off with substances, you've been numbing that system out. If you've been using that to put your feelings away, then it's going to take a little bit of, it's going to take a lot of bravery to be able to say, I'm going to be able to handle it when I feel whatever I feel. Instead of numbing myself out. So there's a lot of education.
Katherine Hurtig
A lot more than just awareness.
Christine Berry
A lot more than just awareness.
Stefan De Villiers
But to that question of like whether people are surprised, I think a lot of the men that do come in that I've worked with are actually quite surprised at our approach because I think they come in thinking we're going to judge them, right? You know, maybe they've been through probation or parole or, you know, some other legal sort of entity. Now they're coming in for counselling. There's just one more person that's going to tell them what they need to do and be punitive in their approach. And then what we do is we come from a place of curiosity. We come from a place of, you know, helping them become curious about their own physical sensations, as Chris really eloquently described, and like getting to know themselves a bit better. And that openness, that nonjudgmental-ness, that curiosity, you know, can be really transformative for people. You know, they feel seen, they feel heard, they feel like they're respected and that we treat them with dignity. You know, that can be a really powerful experience for people that can motivate them to want to do better as well.
Katherine Hurtig
And is that some of the feedback you've heard? That it, yeah…
Christine Berry
Some of the feedback that we've heard is it's not like what I thought it would be.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, because I'm sure, I mean, everyone, I think, has, you know, kind of an idea of what counselling would be like, regardless of what the reason is, you know. So I'm sure people come in with a lot of misconceptions.
Christine Berry
Absolutely. They have this often predetermined notion, often based on whatever the latest television show or movie is. And the counselling office is very different. I mean, we want to use a lot of empathy. We want to see the person as they are. We want to be compassionate. As I said, there's often a lot of trauma that comes in. Well, that makes their behaviors understandable. It doesn't excuse them. They're still not okay. So to make it safe for people to kind of look at themselves, that is one of the major components of therapy. The other thing is that for many individuals who've harmed others, to introduce them to the idea of empathy for self, empathy for others. Because individuals who feel ashamed often don't feel very compassionate for themselves.
Katherine Hurtig
How long does it take for someone to feel safe to open up through counselling? Are we talking, I mean, I know this is kind of painting a broad brush, but is it six sessions until you're kind of peeling back that onion? or I guess it really is individual.
Stefan De Villiers
It very much is individual. It depends on how much shame people are coming in with for one thing, but also just how ready they are to kind of look at their own behaviors. I don't think that you can really say one way or the other. The way that we work at the agency is that we spend a bit of time at the early stages just kind of building that working alliance with the client and getting them to a place where they are ready to change, but also that they are able to see that they can change. So we wouldn't necessarily send someone immediately into a group program. We run, for example, the Responsible Choices for Men group, which is a group for men who have used some form of violence in their intimate partner relationships. And sometimes those folks are mandated into our programs, but we don't just throw them into the group. Like we want to establish a working alliance with them. We want to make sure that they understand that there's trust, that there's respect, that they deserve to be treated with dignity and to get them to a place where they can, like I was saying, be from that place of curiosity about their own experiences. And that only really comes from kind of being able to let your guard down a little bit and letting somebody else in. And, you know, that is a very individual process. So that can take for some people it's one session. For some people, it can be like 10, 20 sessions, right? There isn't really one, you know, one path forward.
Katherine Hurtig
So, yeah, you guys have talked about Calgary Counselling Centre, but we also have Counselling Alberta, which serves the entire province. So can you guys touch on that? How can people access the support? How is it available to anyone in Alberta?
Kyle Ho
Right, so I can have more conversation on that. So just get us some background information about Calgary… Counselling Alberta. So it's a division of Calgary Counselling Centre to provide virtual counselling sessions across the Alberta. So like, you know, like when people not stay in Calgary, we are not just serving people from Calgary, but we are serving all the people from Alberta. So when the people who think that they need to have counselling service, they can just register from our website and then we will have counsellor to reach out to them and provide sessions with them throughout virtually to do that as well.
Christine Berry
So at the Calgary Counselling Centre, both the Calgary Counselling Centre programs and the Counselling Alberta, we offer services in person if you're in the Calgary area. We also offer services remotely through Teams.
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, so we offer services in Calgary, obviously, as Calgary Counselling Centre, but we also have a division called Counselling Alberta that services anybody in Alberta. And we have partner agencies that are established in Edmonton, in Red Deer, in Grand Prairie, in Lethbridge, Medicine Hat, and Fort McMurray. And those sites also offer in-person services through Counselling Alberta. And then obviously there's also virtual services being offered using Microsoft Teams.
Katherine Hurtig
And so, yeah, kind of specifically the services the Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta offer for, you know, both people who have experienced abuse or who have used abuse. You know, there's kind of general counselling. But what can you kind of describe the other offerings that we have, the other services that we offer?
Christine Berry
So CCC, we have individual couple, family therapy and group programs. So we run the gauntlet. In addition to that, we have groups for children. And if you want further information, you can look on our website for that about our group offerings.
Katherine Hurtig
And the group specific to people who have experienced or used abuse. So we talked quite a bit about the Responsible Choices For Men, but what other groups are there?
Stefan De Villiers
Well, right now I'm actually facilitating a group called You Are Not Alone, which is for female victims of domestic abuse. And so that is a 14-week program. All of our family violence groups are 14 -week programs. They're virtually offered through Microsoft Teams. They're typically two hours a week for those 14 weeks. And, you know, they're a variety of sizes, but, you know, anywhere from 7 to 14 in a group kind of thing. So we have that group. We also have the Turn for the Better group, which Kyle is probably better situated to talk about.
Kyle Ho
Thank you, Stefan. So, like, we are also running about the Turn for the Better in October. And then it's also a 14-week program. So mainly focusing on the male victims who are experiencing domestic violence.
Katherine Hurtig
Male victims?
Kyle Ho
Yes, absolutely. So it's focused on the therapeutic change for men who want to be part of a healthy relationship and non-abusive future. So the men come join in and who want to be changing in their life to be better. So we want to educate them or helping them to identify a healthy relationship for the future and also able to recover from the domestic violence and have a bright future later on that they can have a brand new start again.
Katherine Hurtig
Amazing. Yeah. Were there any others?
Stefan De Villiers
There’s the children's groups that are, so we have two children's group. We have the Children Of Divorce group. So those for both for parents and for kids that are navigating, you know, a family kind of breakdown. And then we also have Responsible Choices For Children group, which is for kids that maybe are having behavioral issues. They're acting out. Maybe it's something in the home that's contributing to that. and with the with the children's groups what really make them powerful is that the kids meet separately so they have their on usually it's on a Saturday and this is an I believe it's now an in-person group so the kids would meet together and then the parents would meet separately but together like the parents are together yeah and they're learning the same skills and so what that does is that when the parents are in the home environment and the kids are maybe trying to practice some of those skills, the parents are, you know, informed about what kind of skills those kids are practicing and they can support the kids in developing those skills. So I think it's a really valuable resource. All of our groups are a bit of psychoeducation, but there's also a bit of processing happening in those groups where, you know, what we've, I think, learned from running these groups is that people learn from each other. And, you know, the facilitators are all trained therapists, but often the people learn more from each other than they do from the therapists in those group programs. And, you know, having that space to work through their experiences, their traumas, to talk about what they're feeling, and also kind of validate each other's experiences, it breaks down some of those silos, those walls that are sometimes part of that abuse experience.
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you so much. Let's, you know, let's finish off by kind of one last thing that you guys want people to leave with hearing. One thing you want people to know, if anyone's listening who has experienced abuse, what do you want them to know?
Stefan De Villiers
I'll go first. I want them to know that they're not alone and that there are people out there that care about them, that there is a better life possible.
Christine Berry
I want them to know the same thing, that you're not alone, that there are people that can help you. No one deserves to be abused. Please reach out.
Kyle Ho
I would say that it's not easy first step, but then every time if you want to find someone or you want to change the situation, they'll always be there. And then you have a huge opportunity and also you deserve it to have a new fresh start. And we always be there with you to stay with, to solve the problems as well.
Katherine Hurtig
And what do you want, if someone's listening who has used abuse, what do you want them to know?
Stefan De Villiers
I want them to know that change is possible, that a better life is possible. And that there, again, that there are people out there that care about them and want to see them thrive. And that, yeah, that there is a better way to have relationships and meet their own needs.
Christine Berry
I want folks to know it's not too late. The change is possible. And the problem is the behavior. It's the behavior we want to change, not the kind of core self. And so that is possible. And it's not too late.
Kyle Ho
I would say that we don't know their story, but then there are some factors that lead them to maybe think that using abuse may be the only way that can cope with the problem. But then like I would say that like they might be another problem. They're like they're facing this situation and don't know how to deal with it. So never too late to come in and learn some new perspective and insight and see how we can change it and to be a better chapter of our life in the future.
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you so much, all three of you. This is really it's been a yeah, it's an important conversation. So I really appreciate you being here with me.
Stefan De Villiers
Thanks for doing this.
Christine Berry
Thank you, Katherine.
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to Living Fully thank you for tuning in. This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, Manuel Montano, Jenna Forbes, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Christine Berry, Stefan De Villiers and Kyle Ho.
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favorite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling for anyone in Alberta with no waitlist and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com or counsellingalberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the U.S., seek help from your general medical practitioner.