Season 1, Episode 15: Men's Mental Health Mini-Series: Building Resilience and Coping Skills
The rising rates of anxiety, depression, and suicide among men, clearly indicate that men are struggling with their mental health. These struggles stem from a variety of factors that require attention if we are to achieve meaningful change. To further address these concerns, we present the third instalment of our four-part series on men's mental health.
In this episode, Che Burnett, a registered social worker, explores the issues men face and provides insights into enhancing resilience and fostering adaptive coping strategies.
-
Katherine Hurtig
Men all over the world are struggling with their mental health. Anxiety, depression, and suicide rates among men continue to rise. There are many underlying factors to these challenges that need to be addressed in order for meaningful change to happen. To help address these issues, we'll be talking about some of the challenges men are experiencing.
Welcome to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Each episode we’ll bring you insights from our expert counsellors, and tips and strategies to improve your mental well-being. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counseling for anyone in Alberta with no wait list and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com or counsellingalberta.com.
On this episode, I talk with Che Burnett, registered social worker, about building resilience and developing healthy coping skills.
Thank you so much for chatting with me today Che. To start, could you just introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your background as a counsellor?
Che Burnett
Sure. Thanks, Katherine. I stepped into this field later in life and I think one of the reasons I was interested in doing this podcast with you is because men's mental health has been particularly interest of mine. That's in my earlier years I worked a lot in the Bush, did lots of blue collar jobs, labor jobs, and in my late 20’s, kind of realized that I wanted to work with my own mental health and kind of turned my life around in a different direction, which then led me to being interested in helping other people.
Katherine Hurtig
Excellent
Che Burnett
That led to working in group homes, which led to working on a diploma, then a degree, and I kept wanting to learn more and as I built capacity to learn and work with people, I saw there was more to discover and now I just see it's endless. And There's just so much with working with people
Katherine Hurtig
That's quite a change in careers, for sure.
Che Burnett
And I think part of this particular topic interests me because at one time if you asked me how I felt, I could tell you what I did, but I didn't actually have any language for how I felt.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Yeah. We want to focus more on men's mental health, not to say that it's any more important than any other demographic, but because there's still this hesitancy for men to reach out for help and, a lot of them are struggling. So we really want to open up that conversation around it.
Che Burnett
Yeah and I think it's incredibly important because if we look at the health of our society that we're men are integral part of society.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course.
Che Burnett
So if men aren't out in a healthy way, it's affecting everyone.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Che Burnett
And I'll use broad terms as men, because of course there's a whole spectrum, including trans. There's just the set cultural on different things. But in general, I see that difference and it's easier to, I think, be angry at men for not being healthy and acting in different ways that are self-destructive or isolating or so forth. At the end that that's the paradigm shift if we can help men realize that there are healthy strategies to learn, healthy tools, to learn to put in their tool chest, and that traditionally there's lots of them haven't been taught because men are just supposed to suck it up, keep going and it doesn't work that well.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I think it's such a harmful message. So today we're kind of focusing on the idea of resilience and bouncing back after hard times, and the coping skills that you need to kind of be able to do that. So why do you think that it's important to specifically address resilience and coping skills for men’s mental health? What kind of unique challenges do men often face in this regard?
Che Burnett
Well we get a lot of messages. I was talking to somebody from Nepal this morning and they said in his cultural group that if you, if you're a man and you talk about mental health issues, you're considerably weak and useless, and that mental health is for something that's really extreme, like maybe schizophrenia or something.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Che Burnett
It's like something big. There's many areas on the spectrum of what the message is for men. But I think a lot of it is that it's not in a comfort zone to talk about. How that regards to resilience is that you're supposed to push through, provide, it's the message from Hollywood to be strong, independent. All these messages are portrayed. Meanwhile, men are going through all the same distress levels as every other
Katherine Hurtig
Exactly. They experience the exact same emotions.
Che Burnett
You know, men experience depression but it's often, it's seen as anger.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Yeah, that's what I heard that it kind of shows up differently in men than women.
Che Burnett
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
So you know resilience. It is a term often used when we talk about mental health. Can you just kind of talk about what that means? What it means to be resilient? To have resiliency?
Che Burnett
Well I think that it is one area, that one of the strengths that traditionally men have had is to keep going despite all the odds, and that's needed, and that's traditionally was needed, and there's a lot of strength within that like, OK, we're just gonna put aside the feelings and get the job done.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Che Burnett
And we're gonna like, it's cold, it's whatever, you know, things need to get done. You're gonna go forward and do it. So that's one part of resilience to get back up and keep going. The issue I think is if that's your only tool in your resilience tool chest, you're trying to fit a hammer for every job, and so the missing part is resilience. Especially in a more modern society where people can be a little bit more isolated is that it also includes being supported by community, being able to go to your elders, your uncles or your parents to, say, OK, how do I walk through this being supported and know you're supported. The other one, that I've noticed noting is that being able to regulate and being able to like, and with a society with lots of media input, I think we're dealing with a lot of the people that are anxious because there isn't necessarily quiet time spent. And so when distressing things come up where if one is spending time meditating, reflecting, sitting down and have quieting moments, one can be able to be resilient, to think through it. But because we're living in such a society of input that it's actually harder to be resilient. It's easier to be distressed. It's easier to be disruptive.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I like what you said about community because it's hard to wrap my head around that idea that is so pervasive that you should be able to handle everything on your own. That just seems wild to me because you can't expect any one person to know how to handle every situation that comes their way. You know what I mean?
Che Burnett
But that's funny that you say that because that's the exact message. I remember that message.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah!
Che Burnett
And it makes it really hard to learn new things. Because you're just supposed to know.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course.
Che Burnett
yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
You're supposed to know it or just figure it out on your own.
Che Burnett
Yeah, and it ties back to that. That's where there's healthy resilience, there's pride. OK. I'm gonna figure it out. We're going to work through things.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, for sure.
Che Burnett
But it's that thing of that can really be a heavy load to carry to and I don't think sometimes people realize that or they don't even realize the symptoms of their mental health deteriorating because they're trying. They've put upon that expectation that I am supposed to figure everything out. And the thing I think that's missing sometimes, people, men don't know that their frustration level or isolating or different things are actually signs that their nervous system is feeling challenged right now.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Che Burnett
Or emotionally feeling challenged.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, if that's a new concept for you it would be hard to have that kind of self-awareness and pick up on those things. You know in your practice with clients. And I know this is really broad because men are coming to you for all sorts of reasons, but what kinds of things, what do you recommend to them to kind of help build their resiliency and expand their coping skills?
Che Burnett
Great question. I think one of the things, that I think by the time somebody comes to see me, they've recognized that their level of distress is so high that they're not feeling like they're able to keep going well. And I can be a safe place to go to or any counsellor can be a safe place to go to. And so one of the things is just, slow steps, but starting to share more. Even saying I'm having a rough day and seeing how people respond.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Che Burnett
Little bids of vulnerability to go out into the world and.
Katherine Hurtig
And generally, like when you give out. I'm gonna say give that assignment, but it's not necessarily that formal, but when you get clients to do that, generally what's what's the response? Do they find that difficult? Are they surprised by how that goes?
Che Burnett
Definitely difficult.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah?
Che Burnett
I think often. Well, there's a good percentage of people come in because the relationships are deteriorating, so that can be a real motivating factor. And so that's what I try to remind people that, ok, here is just like you learned how to build a house or fix the car, or do whatever, work on your computer program. Whatever your skill set is, this is another thing about by practice you get better at it.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course. Yeah. It's like any skill.
Che Burnett
And then the other part is to remind people that I think often, men will see themselves as wanting to hold and be a provider and do things for the people around them. So It's a reminder that you give somebody else a gift when you let them do that for you.
Katherine Hurtig
Right
Che Burnett
So you're really helping people because there's a lot of trust in that and there's a lot of honor for somebody else to hold space for you.
Katherine Hurtig
I was recently speaking to a family member and they were saying they find it really difficult to be vulnerable with their partner to let their partner know if they're having a hard time. So if someone is experiencing that, how do you kind of help them, have that mindset shift to, realizing that it's a good thing for a relationship, like for you to share those feelings?
Che Burnett
Yeah. Well, it's like risk versus reward.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Che Burnett
So there's risk to it, because not everybody is going to be able to respond or some people may just tell you to buck up, or I don't have the time or something. But it's also coming back to do you want to have happy and healthy relationships? Do you want other people to share the journey in life with you and you share theirs?
Katherine Hurtig
Right
Che Burnett
So it's letting people know that there isn't any growth without risk.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course.
Che Burnett
There really isn't.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Katherine Hurtig
It's hard to accept for sure, but that's very true.
Che Burnett
And then the piece becomes, ok, so your system is going to feel like a lot of pushback from doing it. So it's reminding somebody where else have you stepped into your adventure edge? And it's been risky. … and to remind yourself of your values and skills and experience. And then the other piece islearning how to breathe. Learning how to regulate. Like the science of your nervous system, when it's anxious is that the heart beats faster. The blood rushes to the brain
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Che Burnett
The blood leaves your extremities. It thinks that the tiger is gonna attack you. Meanwhile, you're just going to have a conversation.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Che Burnett
To tell somebody you love them.
Katherine Hurtig
Or make a phone call, yeah.
Che Burnett
But your nervous system thinks that the lion is going to eat you.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, they're full of danger.
Che Burnett
So you learn the other part of it is helping people get ready is learning how to work with the distress in their body. Like a really simple one that I let people know is you rub your hands. Rub your hands back and forth for a minute to two minutes,
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Che Burnett
And you literally can calm your nervous system down.
Katherine Hurtig
Oh, I haven't heard that one.
Che Burnett
You're signaling a bilateral stimulation, and you're letting your body know the blood can come back down to the extremities and leave your healthy disk.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah! Nice, I like that. Yeah, I don't know if this is the same thing, but I've heard of those grounding techniques. I really like the one about the five senses.
Che Burnett
Yeah
Katherine Hurtig
Where you identify things you can see and hear and it just really kind of brings you back to what's happening right now.
Che Burnett
Yeah, it signals to your body that you're safe enough to look around. And whatever the trigger was to come to that point of anxiety, It's ok.
Katherine Hurtig
We've talked a bit about regulation exercises. What other kind of coping strategies and techniques do you work with men on? Like coping techniques that are more healthy than, let's say just going out drinking with your friends or getting really angry?
Che Burnett
Well, generally people have interests. You know they're generally from childhood there's some interest in life, things that they really liked doing. That weren't a job. And sometimes we're lucky enough that we get to our job gets to be those interests. We’ll use the life balance wheel
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Che Burnett
and work is just one pie. Family is one pie. It's for those who have spiritual beliefs. That's a really strong place to go, your service volunteering to other people, physical health. One of the ones that I've been practicing for the last year and a bit and recommend to everyone, is cold plunges. Cold showers, ice cubes on the foreheads. Yeah. More than he thinks it's not just like the cold water helps you have that grounding parasympathetic response come back down. The breathing before helps you learn how to be in distress and down to regulation. It also teaches you to meet difficult things.
Katherine Hurtig
It's true, yeah.
Che Burnett
Just to step into something that's difficult, you're already taking on the challenge?
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Che Burnett
You've learned that? Oh, I have courage. I can step into difficulty.
Katherine Hurtig
And it doesn't even have to be that conscious of a thing like I'm doing something hard, but just going through those actions, yeah, and having a cold shower or bath or whatever again and again, you just kind of develop that.
Che Burnett
It builds confidence.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah. I'm always fascinated by how really intertwined mental well-being is with physical health. And I don't know if we, you don't remember that all the time.
Che Burnett
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
But it is like, you're in a bad mood, even just a walk, can totally change that. And what we put into our bodies, what we eat. That has an impact on how we feel and.
Che Burnett
It certainly does. There's an interesting thing with serotonin, which there's a lot of antidepressants are around, serotonin inhibitors, uptake inhibitors. Is it 90% of your serotonin lives in your gut, is made in your stomach.
Katherine Hurtig
Is it?
Che Burnett
If your stomach doesn't have a really healthy gut biome, it's going to be hard to feel ok.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Che Burnett
Because your stomach is not going to be able to produce what it needs.
Katherine Hurtig
It all starts with getting back to basics and moving your body and eating right and sleeping well. So Che, coping skills, they're definitely going to vary from person to person. What kind of advice do you have for men in kind of discovering the coping strategies that work best for them?
Che Burnett
Practice. Yeah. Try them out. There's no way that you're going to just be able to try one once or twice. That's a bit of a, I think, kind of impatient dream that somehow I'm just gonna be able to do this and I'll be ok. You didn't develop who you are overnight. Generally, by the time people come in they've been alive for a couple of decades or more. So recognizing that, go out and practice something for a month or two.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Che Burnett
And then see how does that effect what are you noticing over a bunch of different circumstances? How that is? The good things in our life, good habits, take time.
Katherine Hurtig
Can you kind of list some examples? We talked about different hobbies and interests and…
Che Burnett
Sure!
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah! it's just some different examples of coping techniques?
Che Burnett
Well, one is 60 seconds will save your life or somebody else's. The essence of that is to take breaks throughout the day. Just a minute. Just two minutes. Just three minutes. Breathe, check in, look at the environment, and right there it's you're stopping your system from being on survival and going forward and running from the next thing to the next.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Che Burnett
You're interjecting and leaving moment, maybe for a spiritual practice or just a personal check in practice, a thinking, a calming. Yeah, other ones are some kind of exercise that uses both sides of your body. As far as I can tell from like, EMDR practice are things that help you be balanced. Even driving can be a helpful balance because you're using both sides of your hemisphere.
Katherine Hurtig
OK. You mentioned EMDR, can you explain what that is?
Che Burnett
EMDR is, uses bilateral stimulation, which is eye movements or feeling on both hands, stimulation on both hands. And it helps you process things that have been imprinted on your nervous system. Generally that are difficult. Generally, people come in for counselling because what's been imprinted is hindering them and getting triggered.
Katherine Hurtig
Ok. Like certain traumas and stuff?
Che Burnett
Yeah. When a person comes to that state, there's some questions, there's different things that are asked, and then one uses this bilateral stimulation to allow themselves to experience what got stuck. What got imprinted and has not been able to move.
Katherine Hurtig
Ok.
Che Burnett
And so you step into that in small doses, feel it, but also remember that you're present now and strong, and that allows you to work through old difficult feelings that are trapped.
Katherine Hurtig
OK. Yeah.
Che Burnett
Sensations, memories, those kinds of things.
Katherine Hurtig
And that's kind of a technique that you use as a counsellor with clients? That's not something someone would do on their own?
Che Burnett
Yeah. When I think the reason is sometimes not to do it alone is because part of what made things not resilient, made it more traumatic was that there wasn't somebody to support, to walk through it.
Katherine Hurtig
Right
Che Burnett
So by doing it with somebody else, you provide that opportunity for two people, for your nervous system to start trusting in community. But tying back what I've noticed about doing Tai Chi, yoga, and weightlifting, is that you can also just be processing difficult feelings while you're doing that. You can help move through. You can just allow that flood of whatever the tensions of the day, the sadness so forth work through.
Katherine Hurtig
I've used that. What do you call it? What would you call the EMDR? Is that a modality or?
Che Burnett
Therapy. Yep.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I've used that therapy technique with my own counsellor and I kind of found it helpful when I run cause that kind of uses that
Che Burnett
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
bilateral motion for sure.
Che Burnett
OK, very interesting.
Katherine Hurtig
Cool. Yeah. We touched on this a little bit. Men often pride themselves on self-reliance, handling things on their own. So how can we reframe asking for help as a strength rather than a weakness?
Che Burnett
One is to honor that self-reliance and that strength. Countering that is to recognize that, ok, these skills that men have developed have actually been very protective. They've actually had some use, and it's more hype. It could be hyper-masculinity, it could be independence, self-reliance, it's so forth. So part of when working with is like, ok, those are useful at times. But that's not all that you need to get along with.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Che Burnett
Look at how hard it is to be vulnerable.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Che Burnett
If you think about that in the term of strength. Well, that takes a lot of courage to be vulnerable.
Katherine Hurtig
It definitely does for sure.
Che Burnett
Yeah. So if you want to challenge, ok, you're strong, ok. Share something sensitive. Share something vulnerable. Because there's a test of strength. That's a bit of like, I think an interesting, challenging reframe to help people recognize that, It's ok. I think a lot of it is just letting people know, educating, the reality that it's ok that you have sadness. It's ok that you have frustration. It's ok.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And I guess like anything else that you've been talking about, it would just take practice right? Attempting and like, with someone you feel safe and to be vulnerable?
Che Burnett
Yeah, people might not even have the language for what they're experiencing they just know that things aren't going well, and they're feeling like they're bumping up, they're overwhelmed all the time.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Che Burnett
So giving that education seems to be a really key point in there. And I think it's really interesting too, Just teaching about how the nervous system responds. Then you can deal with things, then you actually have some ability, and some understanding of what's going on and it's not just something dramatic inside one’s own head.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Yeah, as being able to identify what's going on in your body right?
Che Burnett
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
So in your opinion, what are some common reasons behind men's reluctance to seek professional mental health help?
Che Burnett
It’s so far out of their scope of normal. That it's like a big, big step.
Katherine Hurtig
Ok.
Che Burnett
Like what would that actually be like stopping and sharing something with somebody? What stops people from reaching out? Well, I think it's what men hold is acceptable and what's not acceptable, and they really still try to hold this is what it's ok for me to do. And I also say it's changing. What I notice in each younger generation is that there's more men seem to be more open to talking about things.
Katherine Hurtig
You are seeing that?
Che Burnett
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Well, that's hopeful.
Che Burnett
I think so.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. How do you think we can address an older generation or men that are hesitant, how do we kind of change their mind?
Che Burnett
Or invite them in.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's…
Che Burnett
To consider it, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
That's a good way of putting it.
Che Burnett
Yeah. I think with really practical understandings of what this is, sometimes scientific I was on this hike with two therapists so it was interesting. So of course this is not all for all people, but providing data points that makes sense I think is a pretty grounding way to help men recognize, ohh, when this and this happens, this is the result so
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Che Burnett
Our relationships are you arguing 3-4 times a week with your partner? Perhaps it's time to learn some communication skills.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Che Burnett
Talk about, there's different ways to work through disagreements, entrance points. Are you finding yourself just watching TV, not going out and visiting people, different kind of isolating things? You know, perhaps you're experiencing some anxiety or low mood. I forget what the stats are for depression, maybe in Canada? But they're fairly high for how many Canadians will experiencing it at some point in their life.
Katherine Hurtig
Oh yeah, it was like, one in five and then during COVID it was one in four. Yeah.
Che Burnett
Yeah. And that it doesn't mean that something's wrong with you.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. That's probably a big thing is we still have to normalize mental health a lot more. I think we're getting better, but that idea, I think if someone gets help, if someone sees a counsellor, there's probably that sense inside like that, there's something wrong.
Che Burnett
Yeah. The medical system is incredible for how much it helps people deal with, medical things. The shadow side of is it that pathologizes people, that something is wrong with them, and that they need to get fixed. And so, if you just what you said, that it can be internalized, ah, this is happening, I'm bad. And so letting it know rather than this It's actually about learning skills. This is about recognizing patterns.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Che Burnett
This is about having a chance to share things that cause tension in your life, in a safe place to share them.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah and I think having it, if anyone thinks that something's wrong with them that ties up to their identity and their self worth and it's, oh, something's wrong with me, it's always going to be wrong with me, this just feeling that you can't change. But yeah, just simplifying it, like you said, down to just the idea of building skills, anyone can do that.
Che Burnett
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Che Burnett
And that's such a hard place to be where you talked about there, where it's like I'm never going to be able to change. That, I think is what leads to depression and that feeling of hopelessness and helplessness.
Katherine Hurtig
Right
Che Burnett
Just no matter what I do, this just keeps coming up and I just keep bumping into it.
Katherine Hurtig
And which I think is an easy place to go in your mind, if you're experiencing, a certain emotion or thought for a long period of time It's easy to kind of think is this ever going to change?
Che Burnett
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
I remember when I was young and even just getting a bad cold or flu, after a few days it'd be like I don't remember feeling, well ever, you know what I mean?
Che Burnett
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
So yeah I think it's an easy place to go in your mind, but we've got to remember that we felt better before and we can again.
Che Burnett
Yep.
Katherine Hurtig
If that makes sense?
Che Burnett
Yep, for sure. And that's the importance of being around other people but when we're often when we don't feel well, that's more likely one we're going to isolate.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Che Burnett
Well, it's an interesting kind of counter intuitive process is like this is when you need to reach out, even though your whole system is kind of being protective.
Katherine Hurtig
When you're working with clients, what do you- how do you approach that with them, if they're Isolating? How do you kind of inspire them to see the importance of community, and connection, and socializing?
Che Burnett
Really like being discerning with what's happening, and helping people recognize that they're much more than their feelings, and Canadians use this term, I feel like, and it really I think embeds this contortion in the mind that the way I'm thinking and feeling is all one, and it's being able to recognize that feelings, just like you talked about being sick, they're not necessarily accurate to the reality of life.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Che Burnett
So being able to separate that and be able to, insert, ok, this is a period of time. This does not have to last forever.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Che Burnett
And so trusting that when one takes these steps repeatedly, then one can bring themselves back into harmony.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Che Burnett
And part of the trouble is, back to social media, we see all these figures in around our lives that are in these grand places, and here we are mulling through our mundane lives often or just doing simple things. That could be quite, that’s quite anxiety provoking.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally. Yeah.
Che Burnett
Yeah
Katherine Hurtig
You think your life should look like theirs.
Che Burnett
Yeah, and that can leave a disconnect to actually being able to be enjoying and present and grateful for the life one has. You asked how to help people get out? Well, don't aim for the very end, what's the next step? If you, if your dream is here at ten and right now you feel at two, let's aim for 2.2 cause that's actually reasonable. You build confidence, build capacity. If there's trauma involved, it's actually healthier to go small steps because you really have to teach your nervous system that it can trust being more present.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Che Burnett
It can trust being more vulnerable where it really wasn't safe at some point.
Katherine Hurtig
This is a great chat Che. Is there anything you kind of want to wrap up with anything we haven't touched on?
Che Burnett
That I heard something recently is we're much more than we think we are.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Che Burnett
And part of being in a tough space is that we actually have these blinders of pain, and low risk tolerance, and hurt, and kind of isolation on. And I just really encourage men, because this is what this is aimed for or people working with men, to let them know that it's going to be much better than you could have ever imagined if you give yourself a chance. You just give yourself a chance to take some more steps and when you open that door, the door just seems to open a bit more on its own because you're literally putting where your mind goes, that energy flows. And yeah, it's important. Everyone's important, if you've done things that are hurtful towards people, well, ok, then you make amends, you figure out how to work through that and help create justice with that but, that's not all that you are. You still have lots that you can do, and I would say read stories. There are so many men who have gone through trials and tribulations. Done crazy things and have turned their life around and become warriors, advocates, healers, and that's what our world needs.
Katherine Hurtig
That's wonderful. I love leaving it on such a positive note. Thank you so much Che.
Che Burnett
Yeah. Nice to chat with you. Take care.
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in.
This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Che Burnett.
Katherine Hurtig
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favorite podcast app.
Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. If you're in Alberta and need help, please go to calgarycounselling.com or counsellingalberta.com for help across Canada and the United States. Call 211 if you are outside of Canada and the US seek help from your General Medical practitioner.
Description text goes here