Season 1, Episode 16: Men’s Mental Health Mini-Series: Male Experiences of Domestic Abuse
On this episode, host Katherine Hurtig talks with Stefan De Villiers, registered social worker about domestic abuse experienced by men. Stefan talks about the common misunderstandings and negative beliefs people have about this issue.
The episode explores the various forms of abuse, some of which may not be so obvious, and how they impact a person's mental well-being. From emotional and psychological, to more visible types of abuse, we aim to break down stereotypes and promote a better understanding of the challenges men face in such situations. Join us for a conversation that aims to challenge assumptions and encourage a more open discussion about domestic abuse.
-
Katherine Hurtig
Men all over the world are struggling with their mental health. Anxiety, depression and suicide rates among men continue to increase. There are many underlying factors to these challenges that need to be addressed in order for meaningful change to happen. In this mini series, I'll be talking with our counsellors about different aspects of men's mental health and the unique challenges they face.
Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Each episode will bring you insights from our expert counsellors and tips and strategies to improve your mental well-being. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling for anyone in Alberta with no wait list and no financial barriers. Find us online calgarycounselling.com or counsellingalberta.com.
Katherine Hurtig
In this episode, I talk with Stefan De Villiers, registered social worker, about men's experiences with domestic abuse. We touch on the misconceptions and stigma around this issue, the many different types of abuse there are, how abuse can impact mental health and more. Today I'm here with Stefan De Villiers. Did I say that right?
Stefan De Villiers
Stefan De Villiers.
Katherine Hurtig
Excellent. We're going to be talking about male victims of domestic abuse. So, Stefan, can you start out, introduce yourself, tell us a bit about you and your background.
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, sure. I'm a social worker by training, graduated from the University of Calgary. I work as a generalist counsellor, and then I was hired in 2019 with the Calgary Counselling Centre to coordinate the Male Domestic Abuse Outreach Program, which is one of the very few programs in the country that is focused directly on servicing men who have experienced some form of domestic or intimate partner violence.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. I'm sure we're gonna get into that, but the reason that there aren't many programs around male victims, I would assume it's because there is a lot of stigma around that it's underreported.
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, it's a little bit of all of that.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Stefan De Villiers
There's a lot of programming out there for women and of course that's a great thing, but I think we have neglected as a society the experiences of men, not just with domestic abuse, but just with mental health generally speaking. And I think just socially, men are not necessarily as comfortable accessing mental health services. So all of those factors kind of combine to create an environment where men, I think, have been neglected.
Katherine Hurtig
Right
Stefan De Villiers
When it comes to this topic.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So what are some misconceptions around male victims? What are some stats?
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, it's one of those things that it's hard to measure and you mentioned some of the reasons earlier that it is something that is underreported. It's also an issue of it depends on what data you're looking at.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course.
Stefan De Villiers
Right. So, there's individuals that look at police reports and they see, ok, well, 80% of victims are women and 20%, which is not nothing but is much smaller are men. And so, based on those stats services makes sense to have more services for women than for men.
Katherine Hurtig
But like you said, it's underreported.
Stefan De Villiers
It is underreported.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, just because it's that 20% doesn't mean that it's not happening.
Stefan De Villiers
Well, exactly. And that's the thing, right? Statistics can give you a general picture, but it doesn't tell you like the individual sitting in front of you, let's say, in the counselling room whether they're a victim or not, right, you need to talk to them. And The thing is, when we do community surveys where people are asked to answer specific questions about the types of behaviors in their relationship, the picture is a lot more equal in, in the sense that men are reporting experiences of physical abuse, psychological abuse, financial abuse. Just different forms of intimidation and threat from their partners. And while it is true that the most severe, physical violence, is generally more towards women. Again what we do know is that men do experience those forms of violence as well, and when they do, they're often not properly served.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Now you said things like financial abuse. Can we get into that a little bit like the different forms of abuse that that could be.
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, so the most common type of abuse that men experience is psychological abuse. So intimidation, for example a partner might tell their partner that they can't go out and see friends and family. That they should always report into them and are not allowed to basically have a social life outside of their partner. So that would be an example of, yeah, psychological or emotional abuse. Then there are financial abuse you mentioned. So that would be where perhaps the man is going out and making income, but that income is going into a joint account or an account that they don't control, and so they're not actually necessarily able to access the money that they're bringing in.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Stefan De Villiers
And their partner is spending that money without asking for their permission or for their input at all. And that is a very effective way of controlling people's behavior. And then, other forms of abuse. I'm thinking about, things like medical abuse. While it is true that men are generally physically stronger than women. It's not always the case, and also men can have disabilities, or men can have health issues that make them particularly vulnerable to intimate partner abuse. For example, a partner can withhold medication or isolate them in their room, and not help them get around or go to the bathroom. Things like that right? So there are subtle ways that partners can really make their male partner quite miserable.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Stefan De Villiers
even if it's not physically.
Katherine Hurtig
You’ve mentioned control. Does that play a big part in abuse?
Stefan De Villiers
Yes. Really, when we're talking about domestic abuse, what we're talking about is somebody using intimidation, manipulation, and control to get their needs met. And I mean it's a spectrum, right? Nobody's perfect, right? We all use manipulation tactics in our relationship. But when it becomes an ongoing pattern and it becomes something where this person is really meeting their needs, regardless of the cost that that might have on their partner, then we're starting to talk about abuse.
Katherine Hurtig
Can you share some unique challenges that men may face when seeking help for their experiences of domestic abuse?
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah. Men often will share that it's very difficult for them to break through the feelings of shame. So let's start with the internal barriers.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah!
Stefan De Villiers
Right. Often it comes with a lot of shame and embarrassment that they aren't able to fix their own problems. Again, the socialization of men comes into this because men are told they need to be strong, they need to be able to fix their own issues, they need to be independent, they shouldn't rely on other people. It's not OK to be weak or vulnerable. So all of those messages that men grow up with, really make them vulnerable when they are in a situation where there is abuse because they don't necessarily have the knowledge or the ability to speak about it. And then what men often also report is that when they do disclose the abuse to family or friends or professionals, counsellors, police, authority figures the response is very inconsistent. It will really depend on how knowledgeable that person is about the complexities of domestic abuse,
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Stefan De Villiers
It could be that they get ridiculed for being abused by a woman or just not believed. And men have shared that they'll disclose or they'll call the police to the house and then they will be arrested as the perpetrator, even when there's, you know, pretty clear evidence that they were not the initiator of the abuse.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, there's just that assumption you're the man.
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, stereotypes are pretty strong. And, again it makes sense where those stereotypes come from because, yeah, women do experience severe violence. But I think when we take that lens and we try to impose it on every single situation, then we're going to harm some people.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Stefan De Villiers
Again, men are not a monolithic group either right?
Katherine Hurtig
No exactly!
Stefan De Villiers
There is certainly that aggressive masculinity, for lack of a better word out there, but I think that you know, the other piece of this is too is that there is a lot of men that are not the stereotypical.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course.
Stefan De Villiers
Man with muscles, big muscles, and muscle cars, and all that.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Stefan De Villiers
There are men that are sensitive. There are men that are more gentle. There are women that are the opposite right? When we assume that men are a certain way, then again we run the risk of falling into those stereotypes.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. We've talked a bit about abuse as a whole. How does experiencing abuse, how does that impact someone's mental health?
Stefan De Villiers
Well, quite negatively. It ranges of course, depending on how long the relationship was and how escalated the abuse got. But it can certainly cause people to have symptoms of depression, anxiety, those are very common among people that have gone through this experience. It definitely has a negative impact on self-concept and self-esteem. It can certainly lead to issues both in their personal lives, but in work right? Not being able to focus at work. Or, you know, making more mistakes at work or just more absenteeism from work because they're dealing with a trauma that's ongoing. Men report experiences not sleeping very well, which that's very bad for your mental health over the long term. And then, of course, it impacts physical health as well, right? If your body is constantly under that stress and you're constantly walking on eggshells, that wears a person down. And at the extreme end, yes, men also have PTSD symptoms. They'll have nightmares. They'll have flashbacks. They'll be walking down the road and see a car that reminds them of their ex and that might set off a reaction. Again, it can lead to suicide, suicidality, it can be very severe.
Katherine Hurtig
When you've been working with clients who've experienced abuse, of course, everyone's different, every situation is unique. What are some ways that you work with them to- I don’t know what the right term would be? To get past that, to move forward to, or I want to say heal.
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Do you know what I mean?
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah. Again, the answer is going to be it depends on where they are on their journey. Just to tell you a little bit about the male domestic abuse outreach program. So the men that come in, they're at different phases, right? So some men are being referred by other agencies after a really severe incident. And they're trying to rebuild their lives. They're not necessarily even looking for counselling at that point, they're just trying to figure out, ok, where do I live? How do I get my kid out of this situation? They're just trying to figure out the logistics.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Stefan De Villiers
In that case, our role becomes to connect them with Community resources and make sure that they're connected with other agencies that can also support them, let's say with searching for jobs, or the food bank, or whatever it is that they need just basic needs. So there's those folks And then there's men that are coming in that they're not sure whether they're experiencing abuse right? That's sort of the other extreme that we see right? Where men are coming in and they're like, my mother or my sister told me that I need help, but I don't really know what's wrong. Maybe it's my fault and they're trying to make sense of what they could do differently to solve the problem, and part of the work then becomes to really help them process what has been going on in the relationship, and the dynamics, and highlighting the violence and the abuse if there was violence and abuse, and also highlighting the ways that they've resisted that abuse. So in those cases, the work then becomes more about helping them decide do they want to stay in this relationship, or do they want to leave? And, we don't necessarily tell them what to do.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Stefan De Villiers
We just created a space for them to decide. Sometimes there's good reasons for men to stay in those relationships because they have kids, or they have dependents, or they're not financially independent. And then they comes, ok, well, how do you make this bearable for the meantime, while you figure out what the future could look like. So there's those clients. Often we also get calls from just family members that are wanting to support their loved ones and their loved ones are not ready to access services because of shame or embarrassment. And then it's just more about information providing information. So we see a little bit of everything.
Katherine Hurtig
How does being a victim of abuse impact other relationships in someone's life? With family, with coworkers, with friends?
Stefan De Villiers
There's a lot of withdrawal from social connection that happens. Again, if you think about it, if you're stressed about your relationship and you're exhausted from it, you're not gonna feel necessarily very comfortable talking to other people about it. And that means that you're going to pull away and on top of that often, what comes with domestic abuse is that the abusing partner will try to isolate the victim from their support network to gain more control. And you know men will talk about losing contact with friends that they've known for years and years and years or, having to cut off their family. So there's a lot of social isolation that happens and I think also just the internal shame can prevent men from wanting to talk too much about their lives with their friends, which, yeah, again, shuts them down. A lot of the work initially becomes helping those men to recognize that they didn't do anything wrong. That it's not their fault. And what I like to tell men is that abuse thrives in secrecy, it thrives in the shadows, and the more you're able to talk about it, be open about it. The more you're taking it back, some agency and taking away the power from the other person. And so that becomes an important part of, recovering from some experience like that.
Katherine Hurtig
Stefan, what drew you to this work?
Stefan De Villiers
I sort of fell into it. That's a good question. I started originally working in group homes, and families where child and Family Services got involved, and saw what the breakup of a home life can do to children, and that drove me to want to learn more. And so I went and got my masters degree in social work, clinical social work. And I thought I was just going to do general counselling.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Stefan De Villiers
That's what I was trained in. And then as I was working with more and more male clients, I was hearing more and more disclosures that were abusive, right? So sexual abuse disclosures. Just disclosures of people who had never talked to anyone else about what they had been through. And I realized that there was a story out there that has not been told very much. Yeah, so that got me interested, and then there was a position that opened up at the Calgary Counselling Centre. I applied and I got the job, and it's been a learning experience for me too, because even myself, I wasn't aware of the extent to which men experience domestic abuse.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Stefan De Villiers
I think a lot of people sort of write it off as it's a rare event. Why should we care? But when it's you,
or your family member going through it. In some ways, the prevalence of it doesn't matter. That subjective experience is important, and that person deserves support. And I wanted to do my bit to make a difference in that world.
Katherine Hurtig
That's amazing. So in your experience, knowing again that it all depends on where someone is at, what strategies, or coping mechanisms have you found effective for men dealing with the aftermath of abuse?
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, what I would like to talk about is the group program we do because it is an approach that I think is particularly helpful for men who experience domestic abuse.
Katherine Hurtig
Ok, what's the name of that program?
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, it's called Turn for the Better and it's a 14-week therapy group that we offer here at the Calgary Counselling Center. And it's a program that has a bit of a psychoeducation component to it, like different themes are covered every week. Themes like what is abuse? What is a healthy relationship? What are different communication styles like? What does assertive communication look like? We go into a bit of family of origins work as well, looking at patterns from your own family of origin and how that might be playing into the relationship that you're currently in or have been in, and there's some experiential components as well, but in some ways it's less about the the themes that we cover and more about the environment that we're able to create. What I found is that for a lot of men that are coming in for therapy, you know it's one thing to talk to a counselling professional about what they've been through. There's value to that, but I think men who can see that they're not alone and that there are other men that truly understand, that have been in their shoes. That is a really transformational experience.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I would think that the group like that, although it's an incredibly vulnerable experience to see that there are other people that know exactly how you felt. That has to be really validating and help.
Stefan De Villiers
It is and for a lot of these men they'll say this is the first time that I've ever talked about my feelings with other men. It's even just the space itself is unusual. Men don't typically get together and talk about their worst moments.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Stefan De Villiers
And there is a bond that can develop when we create that kind of space for men. Yeah, a lot of men carry really negative messages about themselves that have been reinforced by the abuse. So many of them talk about feeling like they're crazy, or that there's something wrong with them, or they're defective, or that they deserve this, or that they're not a good person, or that they're just alone right? So all of those messages, if you're hearing that day in day out from an abusive partner even the most self-confident guy in the world is going to get worn down. And so the group can really create a counter narrative for that, where men are able to validate each other's experiences, highlight each other's strengths and capacities for resisting the abuse. And just offer a different perspective and give people hope that it is possible to get through something like that and get to the other side. And so I think that is a really effective strategy to working especially with this population.
Katherine Hurtig
When would someone go into that group? Is it every client that we would see that has experienced abuse?
Stefan De Villiers
No, I mean we do screen them in that go into the group because people have to be at least somewhat stable to be able to benefit from the conversations that are happening. Also, there are some just technical things that need to happen, right? Men have to have a private space that they can engage in where it's confidential. The groups are virtual, so we used to do in person, but now they're virtual, which opens up, you know, more opportunity for people to participate. But it does mean that they need to be able to access technology. They need to have a private space where they can speak confidentially and have other people's confidentiality respected as well. So we go through a screening process ahead of time to figure out are they able to talk about their experiences? If they're not, then, maybe they need to do some individual work first to get more comfortable talking about their experience. And then they can go into the group and we see the most benefit when somebody maybe starts with individual work just one-on-one with the therapist. And then as they're starting to get more comfortable with telling their story, then putting them in group to benefit from that experience.
Katherine Hurtig
What kind of feedback have you gotten from men that have gone through that group?
Stefan De Villiers
Really positive. We try to run it at least a couple times a year. It depends on the numbers of men that are coming in when we can run it, but every time I've run it, the response is really quite positive. The men are always really sad when the 14 weeks end. They're like, “oh, can't we can't we keep going”. And a lot of the men also continue to contact each other after the group ends, they kind of form their own mini support group following the group. So
Katherine Hurtig
Oh, that's excellent.
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, it's been really powerful I think.
Katherine Hurtig
You had mentioned one of the things that they learn or that or that they talk about in the group is you know what a healthy relationship looks like and that's kind of, yeah, I'd like to to discuss that. That's kind of the opposite of abuse, right? What does a healthy relationship look like? Versus an abuse of one. What are some signs and patterns?
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah. A lot of the conversation around healthy relationships is about helping men identify what they value in a relationship, what's important to them, and then kind of measuring their own relationship to those values and seeing, ok, does this relationship actually meet my need for intimacy? Does it meet my need for honesty and transparency? Is there trust in this relationship? Is this somebody that I feel like brings out the best in me? Or is this someone that turns me down? In terms of conflict, are we able to disagree with each other and still know that we love each other and care for each other. Those would be indicators that this is either a healthy or an unhealthy relationship.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. What would an outsider notice if someone was experiencing abuse?
Stefan De Villiers
That's a really excellent question. It's something that's so shrouded in secrecy that it's really hard to know, right? I think if you're noticing in a friend or a family member that they're starting to withdraw more. That there's a personality shift occurring that they are seeming really stressed a lot of the time. Sometimes men will get more into addictive behaviors like substance use, or drug use to cope. Obviously those could be signs of many different issues that might be going on for that individual, but those are some of the signs that maybe something in the home life might not be quite right. And I think at the end of the day, it's about creating an environment for that man to know that you're there to listen and that you're there and you're available to provide them with support if they need it. But yeah, there's no single thing that will tell you
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Stefan De Villiers
That this is going on because like I said it, it is pretty shrouded in secrecy usually.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And like you said, those things could be signs for any number of things that are going on.
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
In your. Your work with clients. Do you ever work with family members as well?
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, that's the advantage of being part of a generalist counselling agency like Calgary Counselling Center because even though my program is specifically working with the men, we have services that can service all the family members, right? So there's groups for women who use violence or abuse in their relationships as well that those individuals can access if they are in a place where they're willing to change or acknowledge that there is a problem, and sometimes they're not in that place, which makes it a bit more challenging. And then the other piece is the kids, right? So many of the men that access the program are parents, and that adds a whole layer of complexity to it.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course.
Stefan De Villiers
So we do offer children's groups at the agency that I'll recommend to the men for their kids. If they're having behavior issues, they're acting out at home, they're angry a lot of the times. Those kids also need support. So we try to work with the whole family system as well.
Katherine Hurtig
Stefan, what are some key differences in the way men and women experience abuse and respond to it?
Stefan De Villiers
Abuse is abuse, right? If somebody is trying to control someone, the gender in some ways is secondary. But I do think gender norms play a role in how that abuse shows up. And socialization has an impact, right? So I think it's hard for women also to come forward to talk about being abused but there is more, I think social acceptance for women to come forward and tell their stories, and there are more as we talked about earlier, there are more supports that have been set up, and that you know women have fought to set up those supports for each other. In terms of the abuse itself. And at least in the heterosexual relationship. The men often can use their physical sort of dominance to humiliate or control the woman. That's not necessarily as common with the opposite of that being said, I think that with men there's just less ability to recognize the abuse when it's happening because they don't have a context for- or a language for understanding what's happening to them.
Katherine Hurtig
Ok.
Stefan De Villiers
Because a lot of men talk about how in their own upbringings, maybe they saw their dad hitting their mother or something more stereotypical, as a form of abuse, and when it comes to more subtle forms of abuse, they don't necessarily understand it as abuse, so it takes a bit of a while for them to understand. Yet this is not healthy. Somebody withholding your medication from you or somebody that is not, letting you access your finances, or somebody that's demanding sex from you. Whether you want it or not, you know that's not physical violence, but that's still abusive behavior. There is an element of having to educate men around what abuse actually is for them to come to terms with understanding that, yeah, what they are experiencing is not ok.
Katherine Hurtig
I think you've done a good job of this. It's important to emphasize that just because we're talking about male victims, that we're no way minimizing the experience of women. Yeah, I want to emphasize that with this whole mental health series. I think that, whenever you kind of break up different groups and focus on it, it's not like we're saying that this group is more important than another, but I think it is important to talk about it because, men experience all the emotions, all the same
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
life experiences and stuff that women do. So we do need to talk about it a bit more.
Stefan De Villiers
Definitely. I guess one form of abuse I didn't mention that a lot of the men do share and I do want to make sure I bring it up is when there is separation happening in the kids. I talked about kids being a key point. Parents talk about the devastation of losing contact with their kids and especially for men because often the mother will get preferential treatment for getting access to the children. Not that it's easy for women either. But men particularly find it very hard to be heard. In cases like custody cases or court hearings. Where they risk losing contact with their children entirely, and I think that's another element where the social norms, the stereotypes can negatively impact how abuse shows up for men.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. That would be considered a form of abuse as well? Withholding children?
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah, I would call that administrative abuse where you're using the system, the social systems like the legal system to continue or perpetuate your intimidation tactics or control over your partner.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's heartbreaking. You had mentioned this idea and I think we hear this a lot. It's a sign of strength to ask for help. It's brave to do this, and I'm not a man and I don't want to assume to speak to their experiences at all or to make any kind of assumptions. But I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but It's also important to kind of change the narrative a bit, and not just say our idea of strength is different, but also that these other characteristics are valuable too, you don't have to be strong. You don't
Stefan De Villiers
No, that's a good point.
Katherine Hurtig
Have to be brave all the time. Being vulnerable is valuable as well. Being sensitive is valuable as well. I think that's a much greater- it's a bigger hill to climb. I. Think that really starts at childhood and how we raise our boys.
Stefan De Villiers
No, I totally agree with you. It's not just about strength and bravery and all of that, it's also about expanding the possibilities and the meanings of masculinity and recognizing that men are three-dimensional and that means they have strength and they have bravery and independence and all of that. And they have emotions and they have needs and they have wants and they have vulnerabilities. And that makes men just as complex and three-dimensional as any other person
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Stefan De Villiers
Certainly that is not a- I'm not trying to deny that when I say
Katherine Hurtig
No, no! And I yeah, I didn't. I didn't take it that way. I just. Yeah, I think that's part of that bigger conversation. I think as humans, we like to put things in boxes.
Stefan De Villiers
Yes.
Katherine Hurtig
But as people we are so complex. And It starts off as kids the whole girls play with dolls and boys play with cars.
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah. I think I try to meet men where they're at right? And so, if a man buys into the value of strength and all of those sort of independence and needing to be able to problem solve their own issues and being independent. I'm not necessarily going to start by trying to change those beliefs.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course, yeah.
Stefan De Villiers
I'm just going to try to reframe those beliefs in a way that actually helps that person to move forward. But yeah, I totally agree with you. That's only one dimension of the story.
Katherine Hurtig
Can you share some advice to our male listeners who may be hesitant to seek help or talk about their own experiences?
Stefan De Villiers
Yeah. I would say to those men that and I say this to my clients too. It takes a lot more courage and strength to ask for help than to be silent. That it takes bravery to reach out. So when we're talking about those stereotypes of men being strong or being independent or brave, real bravery is knowing when you're in over your head. Being strong means knowing when you need support. And as I mentioned earlier, knowing that abuse thrives in darkness the best thing you can do for yourself is to disclose and speak about what you're going through with people you trust, right? So it doesn't necessarily have to be a counsellor. Talk to a family member, talk to somebody that you know has your best interest at heart, just even breaking that silence is going to be a huge step forward for you in figuring out how to navigate the next step of your life.
Katherine Hurtig
Is there anything else that we haven't covered anything else that you want our listeners to know?
Stefan De Villiers
I think my main message is for the men out there, is for them to know that there is support out there. I know it can be very inconsistent for men that do disclose, I've heard stories of men going to family doctors, or nurses, or authority figures, and not being believed, or not being taken seriously. And I know how devastating that can be for self esteem. I guess my message is to know that your experience matters. It is important, and that there are people out there that are able and willing to help, and to not give up. Keep going.
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you so much for talking with me about this very important topic. Thank you for the work that you do and the lives that you help.
Stefan De Villiers
Thank you.
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thanks for tuning in. This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Stefan de Villiers. To stay up to date on our latest episodes be sure to subscribe.
Katherine Hurtig
We’re available in your favorite podcast app. LIving Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. If you're in Alberta and need help, please go to calgarycounselling.com or counselling alberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the US seek help from your general medical practitioner.