Season 1, Episode 14: Men’s Mental Health Mini-Series: Cultivating Healthy Relationships and Improving Communication
Everyone can experience a range of mental health problems, but they often differ in how comfortable they are discussing their feelings. The societal expectations around what it means to be a man, and the stigma around reaching out for help continues to pose challenges. To help address these issues, we’re focusing on men’s mental health. we continue with part two of our four-part men’s mental health mini-series.
On this episode, Katherine Hurtig talks with Curtis Bader, registered psychologist, about men's mental health and the role that relationships play in it. They explore the societal pressures and expectations placed on men to be strong and independent, leading to a reluctance to seek help. The conversation explores the impact of these expectations on men's mental health and the importance of normalizing vulnerability and open communication in building healthier relationships and seeking support for mental health issues.
Statistics and information shared in this episode:
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Katherine Hurtig
Men all over the world are struggling with their mental health. Anxiety, depression, and suicide rates among men continue to rise. There are many underlying factors to these challenges that need to be addressed in order for meaningful change to happen. To help address these issues, we're focusing on men's mental health, and we'll be talking about some of the challenges men are experiencing.
Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Each episode we’ll bring you insights from our expert counsellors, and tips and strategies to improve your mental well-being. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling for anyone in Alberta with no waitlist and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com or counsellingalberta.com.
On this episode, I talked with Curtis Bader, registered psychologist, about the role that relationships of all kinds play in men's mental health and how men can build strong and healthy relationships.
Katherine Hurtig
Thanks again Curtis for joining me today.
Curtis Bader
You’re so welcome.
Katherine Hurtig
If you can just start out by introducing yourself and tell us a bit about your background.
Curtis Bader
Sure. Yeah. My name is Curtis. I'm a counsellor at the Calgary Counselling Centre. I'm a registered psychologist. And I've been a full-time counsellor for two years.
Katherine Hurtig
Awesome. We're going to talk about men's mental health, and particularly about how relationships play a role in mental health, and how to build those healthy relationships and how working on communication can improve men's relationships.
Curtis Bader
Mm-hmm.
Katherine Hurtig
You know, I want to address the reason that we're talking specifically about men's mental health, and you know, I'm sure as a counsellor you can elaborate on this, but it's not unheard of that men are more hesitant to talk about their mental health. In Canada, suicide rates are about three times higher for men compared to women, so it's definitely an issue. Can you comment on that?
Curtis Bader
Absolutely, yeah. No, you're exactly right that men are less likely than women to seek help for mental health, but it doesn't mean that they're struggling any less. And so, it's important that we bring attention to the topic of men's mental health so that they recognize that it's important to reach out, it’s important to seek help because it can be life changing and even lifesaving.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Why is it that men are less likely to reach out for help if they're having a hard time?
Curtis Bader
It's a number of factors I would say, but a lot of it is due to socialization. Kind of this idea that men are kind of taught, that it's important that they just deal with their problems on their own, that they show a lot of strength and independence that way. So, it's kind of discouraged to really seek help for other people or admit any sort of fallibility or any vulnerability. So, it's not really socially acceptable to tell other people that you're struggling in that sense. So, there's kind of this ingrained perspective that men have to be assertive, and competent, and independent, and that can kind of prevent them from seeking help.
Katherine Hurtig
I hope that we're moving away from that idea. I think it's so dangerous. I'm trying to be really conscious of that with my stepson and talk about all different kinds of emotions. Make him feel okay to feel and express all different kinds of emotions. I think it's so dangerous to send that message that you know that it's not okay.
Curtis Bader
Mm-hmm. I even noticed that personally on sports teams I played on- that when you try to engage men in conversations about how they're doing, how their family is, what they’re struggling with, they really tend to divert it to “Oh. No, it's going good. It's fine, no problem.”
Katherine Hurtig.
Yeah.
Curtis Bader
So, it's not a very comfortable topic for them to discuss as well.
Katherine Hurtig
Are there more common mental health challenges that men face that are you know unique to them versus women? Does it show up differently, that kind of thing?
Curtis Bader
Yeah, it's interesting. I think previous research kind of demonstrates that men tend to externalize their feelings and engage in behaviors such as drinking, or dangerous behaviors, or risky behaviors. Whereas women tend to internalize their feelings and it kind of leads to things like depression. But that research has been kind of called into question, suggesting that really, it's not such a difference between men and women- that men struggle just as well with women about or similar types of things. But they maybe just express it differently or conditioned to express it differently.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Curtis Bader
You're right that men do make about 3/4 of suicide cases in Canada, and it's even higher among other minority ethnic groups. Men also struggle more with substance use - about 75% of cases are with men, but they also do struggle with things like depression, as well as neurodevelopmental disorders like ADHD or autism spectrum disorder. So, these things are still occurring within men as well, even to higher degrees in some cases.
Katherine Hurtig
Mm-hmm. But it's just not talked about as much, or we're not seeing as much of them?
Curtis Bader
Yeah. What I was kind of reading about is that there might be a bias towards how this is presented. So, there could be measurement bias and how they're actually recording the data. Maybe men are presenting it or aren’t being honest about it in the surveys that are being conducted, or maybe its clinician bias. A lot of people will kind of assume that men will be struggling with a different type of issue and they’ll kind of just check boxes based on what they assume versus what's actually happening to the person. And so really like their experiences with depression for example, are higher rates than previously documented, especially with the low help seeking behavior - not a lot of men actually come forward and acknowledge the need to support. So it could be severely underestimated how men are actually suffering
Katherine Hurtig
Does it show up differently in men? We've talked about the common signs of depression: the lethargy and, losing interest and all these different things. Does it show up in the same way? Does it look different?
Curtis Bader
Men have lower rates of mild to moderate depression, but they do struggle with those kind of similar rates of severe depression. So things like you said, that kind of the loss of interest, the loss of pleasure, feelings of guilt, feelings of worthlessness, things that they can't really take care or help themselves and that can lead to that.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Curtis Bader
But they do kind of present definitely and that's kind of what research is showing. In the past is that men tend to use things like alcohol or drugs to numb their distress. They tend to conceal of ignore negative emotions. So they kind of internalize how they're feeling. They don't externalize your tell others about it. They engage in more risky behaviors that could really worsen this stress. And they…
Katherine Hurtig
So what do you mean by risky behaviors?
Curtis Bader
Risky behaviors could be things that endanger themselves or maybe like risky sexual behavior, so having unprotected sex or having sex with multiple partners, or maybe they're engaging in more extreme sports or more extreme activities that could be dangerous, like cliff jumping or things like that, that just kind of gives a thrill or kind of gives a rush or maybe helps distract them from how their feeling or helps them to vent their feelings. Maybe they get into more fights, for example.
Katherine Hurtig
OK. That makes sense.
So we kind of touched on this, how historically men have been kind of conditioned to suppress their emotions and they have to appear strong and capable. So let's talk about how this expectation can impact their mental health.
Curtis Bader
I think the biggest thing, or two major things really is that kind of conception of masculinity being about strong, being independent, being self-reliant, that flies in the face of the fact that all of us struggle and all of us need help from other people. None of us are completely self-aligned, even down to things like do you grow your own food or do you fix your own toilets, or do you provide your own power? Very few people do all those things for themselves, so in many respects, we're asking help from other people, but we've kind of come up with this idea that we shouldn't have to, and yet we need to.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Curtis Bader
So that can lead to that internalization of just never discussing it, never bringing it up, never asking for support, just doing it yourself. And that can be so difficult, so dangerous. The other thing is that not only this can isolate them from getting the help, but it makes them feel guilty, makes them feel worthless for not being able to help themselves when again, nobody can only help themselves. So it kind of doubles down on this perception that men are not fitting the bill when they can't help themselves. And so that leads to low help seeking behavior too, where they don't feel like it's just embarrassing now to go for help because now it's a slight on their manhood or their character, totally. And bridging off that, not only is it just personally, maybe embarrassing to seek help if this is the expectation, but how would you be perceived by your peers? How would you be perceived by other people if they saw you asking for help? They may say, “oh, what's wrong with him? He can't handle it? he can't tough it out?” He's weak or he's incompetent or he's… Yeah, some other kind of negative perception because they have reached out for help. And especially I think in online spaces. We all try to kind of show our best self and our strongest self and they might be kind of like trying to prove to others, but also to themselves that I can hack this. I can handle this. I don't need to get the help. And really internally though actually that fits me.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, for sure. I mean, in your opinion, what do we do about this? How do we go about changing those viewpoints and making the idea of being vulnerable and having these emotions be acceptable?
Curtis Bader
Mm-hmm. That's a great question. I think there's a number of things that we can do to kind of help normalize this idea that all people, men included, struggle, and it's OK to get help. Firstly, I think it starts with kind of recognizing that expressing emotion and experiencing emotion is healthy. It's normal. It's natural. It can't be helped and it's really an asset to us rather than the weakness it. That describes to us, or signifies to us that something's not going well. And then is it stronger to ignore that or is it stronger? To respond to that.
Katherine Hurtig
Right, and address it.
Curtis Bader
Yeah. Really, you can't change something that you're not willing to address, so if something's causing you to feel upset, not addressing it, I think would be worse than addressing it. So it's a good thing to listen to and acknowledge your emotions, to help point you in the direction of what do I need to do differently to help myself? And then just starting somewhere. You don't have to tell every person. You don't have to tell a professional if you don't want to, although it's recommended, but just start with someone that you trust. Open up, tell them how you're feeling. And ask them to listen. There's a lot of clients that I see that really the major benefit they get from counselling is just saying “I liked feeling listened to. It felt nice that someone heard what I had to say and I could finally get it off my chest.” And of course, seeking professional help, I think. Is an important step even if you haven't told anyone else, or even if you have, I think it's important to reach out for counselling. To get the help that's available to you, it can be lifesaving and life changing like we talked about. And another important thing is you don’t have to be eloquent. It doesn't have to be fancy, you can just simply start with naming how you're feeling and go from there. Again, getting that clarity of how you're feeling can be really therapeutic in and of itself.
Katherine Hurtig
Do you find that with a lot of like male clients, you see that they express that they feel like they aren't heard in other places in their lives?
Curtis Bader
Yes, what I've heard is that, well, firstly what I’ve noticed is that they don't know how to really dig into the emotions, kind of stay surface level. And I don't know if it's a comfort thing or if it's just simply they don't really do this much they aren't accustomed to discussing how they feel, so talk about events or they'll talk about turning points in and for themselves, but not about how they feel at each point through that process. But then, yes, they do say that they feel like they have… a lot of men will say “I don't want to burden other people with how I'm feeling.” So they think that they're responsible for taking care of other people in their life and themselves, and if they were to share how they honestly felt with other people, that would cause others to stress, and they don't want to do that to people. But I think they failed to see that just like they want to support others in their life, others might want to support them.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Curtis Bader
And really, it's not so much burdening them, it's actually just educating them. How you're doing where you're at, they can be a better support to you.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. It's funny you mentioned that. I was speaking to a family member recently and they said exactly that. They go through hard times, too, like a lot of stress. They’ve got a lot of things going on in their lives. They have two young kids. You know, we're all kind of being affected by inflation and the cost of living lately. And he was saying that he doesn't want to talk to his partner about how he's feeling because he just thinks that he'd be a burden. Considering where I work, I was like, this just doesn't make sense. Like, you've got to. Yeah. You've gotta tell people who care about you what's going on.
Curtis Bader
Absolutely. And you know people who kind of work in the mental health field, it seems very straightforward. If you're struggling, reach out. But for people who haven't ever been shown that or modeled that or encouraged to do that, maybe even been discouraged to do that, it can feel like a real barrier and they can start to develop these misconceptions that if I do reach out for help. It will actually result in something worse. I'll burden somebody else or I'll be perceived negative when really there's a lot of upsides to sharing
Katherine Hurtig
So we've brought in the idea of other people in terms of men's mental health and how they play a role. So building these healthy relationships, whether they're with family members or friends or coworkers, I mean that's gonna require effective communication. So how can men improve their communication skills to build these more meaningful connections?
Curtis Bader
If we're starting with the idea that it’s important to reach out, just take that first step of sharing. Sharing does involve some other steps as well, but they're not too complicated. They're not too difficult. Just staying calm and staying assertive. That is open, direct, respectful. Just talking about your own experience versus pointing the finger or pointing the blame at somebody else. So telling someone that “I've been feeling really hurt by the fact that you're not really listening to me,” and then asking them if they're able to accommodate you. Ask if they're able to speak with you about what's going on. Ask if they're able to make some changes, ask if they're able to support you in some way. I always find that any relationship, of course is a two way street and people are much more likely to respond to you in the ways that you're hoping for if you reciprocate. So when you listen and when you empathize with people as well, it'll invite them to do the same. It may also increase your awareness of the people you're relationship with, how they're doing, what they're struggling with too, which might therefore kind of reveal to you, “hey, I'm not so different from them or they're not so different from me.” We're all kind of struggling here and that will kind of build trust and deeper connection between you so that more sharing can happen in the future.
Katherine Hurtig
So that kind of vulnerability, I could see that feeling very difficult if that's not something you're used to. do you have any recommendations on how to kind of ease into that, or safely practice it? Does that make sense?
Curtis Bader
Totally. Yeah, I think vulnerability is kind of at the core here. It's tough for people, especially men, to be vulnerable because it kind of demonstrates or kind of signifies to other people that quote unquote weakness that we discussed earlier. But really vulnerability plays such a critical role in both self-awareness - we have to be vulnerable and acknowledge what's happening within ourselves. It also is a critical component of strong relationships. Really, how could you have close relationships with people without getting close to them? And how do you get close to somebody without being vulnerable.
Katherine Hurtig
Right
Curtis Bader
So what I tried to do is really view vulnerability as a strength. It's really kind of like emotions as strength. They’re signals to us that show us what we can do. Vulnerability is empowering. It's a way to learn more about yourself. It can lead to more growth. It can lead to opportunities to make improvements for yourself even or maybe especially in those areas you feel self-conscious about. It can lead to more fulfilling or deepened relationships with others. And that experience of joy and sharing life with people that you care about. And it also demonstrates to other people that you're emotionally mature and capable of maintaining relationships. So you start to invite in more people and show them that you're capable of taking this relationship with them further and even kind of on the work side to employers, humility, which is kind of another related factor to vulnerability is an important trait and they talk about admitting mistakes, taking ownership, taking responsibility. That's a quality that others look for in people. So when you feel vulnerability as a strength, as a way to improve yourself and your relationships, maybe it makes it a bit more enticing.
Katherine Hurtig
I like that term you used earlier. You said like cause you know vulnerability, I don't want to say it has a negative connotation, but it certainly can get under people's skin in some way. But you said it's a part of self-awareness. I really like that. And that seems like a very, like you said, empowering thing, like if you if you can if you can be vulnerable it shows you're more self-aware.
Curtis Bader
Absolutely. And really, how far you expect to go if you're not really aware of what you're doing and how you're doing it, how that's working out for you and what you could do different, it's important for our own self growth that we're cognizant of how we're feeling.
Katherine Hurtig
In your experience, Curtis, as a counsellor. Are there any kind of therapeutic approaches or techniques that you found to be really helpful with men and their particular struggles?
Curtis Bader
Yeah, I think emotion focused or relational therapies could be useful for men. They encourage identification, understanding and expression of emotions. So picking out what you're experiencing, why you're feeling that way and talking about how that is impacting you. But we know that all therapies have been proven to be equally helpful. It's more important. To seek out counselling rather than a specific type of therapy. Because I think any form of counselling would be helpful.
Katherine Hurtig
We we've talked about how important relationships are - what role can friends and family play in supporting men who may be experiencing mental health challenges?
Curtis Bader
Yeah, relationships are so important and it's not just incumbent on men themselves to reach out, even though that's a very important factor. It is important for people around them to reach out to them as well. So asking questions about how men are doing in their lives, and not just general questions like how's it going? But really asking specific ones like how are you doing with that new move that you just went through? How are you doing with the loss of your grandmother? Making time to listen, making time to talk, so prioritizing it, not sending a text as you're on your way to something else, but maybe scheduling a time with them. Encouraging sharing, so maybe reinforcing it, “hey, it's OK to tell me or I'd love to know or tell me more about that,” just to let them know that this permissive elements here that it's OK to open up more to the person and normalize being vulnerable.
If you can share a little bit of your story, “yeah, and I've struggled with that before too,” or “oh man, that sounds really awful. I went through something similar another time and I know how difficult that was,” to again reinforce this notion that men are not the only people who are struggling. It's OK to open up and doing so is helpful and overall just adopting a supportive and encouraging attitude towards seeking help. So after you've cultivated that atmosphere and you've scheduled the time you've talked about it encouraging and continue to do it by saying, “wow, what If you spoke to a counsellor about that, or what if you told your so and so how you felt about that,” to kind of encourage them to continue to share.
Katherine Hurtig
I've got men in my life. People that I care about. What kind of changes might I see in them if they might be starting to struggle? You know what kind of behavior changes, changes in mood, that kind of thing?
Curtis Bader
Yeah, things you might notice are irritability. If they're becoming kind of frustrated, easily angered easily, they're kind of in a bad mood, have a temper, or the opposite, they're really withdrawn. They seem very absent. They seem like they're not expressing anything. They're giving minimal responses. They seem kind of blank. If they are spending a lot more time out of the house or a lot more time in the house, so not really engaging the activities or trying to distract from what they're going through. Yeah, loss of interest in things. If they're kind of canceling plans, not really wanting to go out. Not wanting to socialize. Maybe they're starting to drink a lot more or use other substances more. So there's a lot of different things you can start to pick up on. Basically if you're seeing a lot of deviations from their normal behavior, their normal schedule, their normal way of going about things. That will be indications that OK, that seems, something seems off here. It's a pattern, not just a one off thing.
Katherine Hurtig
Right, yeah.
Curtis Bader
And that could indicate to you that something's not going well for them.
Katherine Hurtig
You know, vulnerability is hard and talking about mental health, it can still carry a stigma that definitely can discourage men from reaching out for help. How can we promote mental health conversations? How can we make it more approachable and easier and inclusive?
Curtis Bader
You know, I think it will have to happen on an individual and a system level, but it's important to create that open and non-judgmental attitude to really encourage men to discuss mental health concerns. So, as I mentioned before, normalizing it by validating their experience. And yeah, that does sound really difficult by kind of adding in your own experience kind of showing that you've been through difficult things in the past too. And when you shared it was made better as a result. Opening up that conversation kind of just being more willing to ask specific questions, more willing to ask how people are feeling on a deeper level versus just how things are going at a surface level. And using more of that gentle and compassionate language. It might be more of a grassroots thing that happens within individual relationships in addition to kind of system level change to make more access to counselling services or make it more covered by insurance more accessible to the workplace. But I think just on an individual level, if we do these things can show men, demonstrate to them and help them create a new experience for themselves, realizing they're not going to be shunned or judged or experienced another kind of set back if they share. In fact, they're gonna be supported, they're gonna be encouraged. They're gonna be listened to. I think that will kind of change their perception experientially, so they're more willing to go seek that help.
Katherine Hurtig
And I think this could be a whole other conversation, but I think that really starts with kids. Starting young and having those conversations and normalizing it when they're boys, right?
Curtis Bader
Absolutely
Katherine Hurtig
Family dynamics and how we're raised, they can definitely have an influence on mental health. So Curtis, how do we foster healthier family environments that promote mental and emotional health?
Curtis Bader
It's such a wonderful question. Like you mentioned that you know, the change in the attitude towards men starts with how do we treat our children? How do we treat our boys? So in the family, minimizing adverse or toxic conditions, things that threaten their safety. Of course, any form of abuse, physical, psychological, sexual, emotional, et cetera.
But even things that criticism, even things like insults, even exposure to parent conflict, these things can kind of be adverse conditions for boys growing up. And for girls, of course too. And teaching and reinforcing healthful behaviors and skills that will help children to become more effective members of society, so rewarding them or pointing out or commending them when they've done things like regulate themselves or they've shown warmth or respect or generosity, or when they've been empathetic or affectionate towards other people. Kind of encouraging those types of behaviours. Just monitoring and limiting opportunities for problematic behavior. Things like experimenting with violence or substance use or risky sexual behaviors, maybe increasing their awareness of what is acceptable and what’s not acceptable, so you can make really defined lines for them so they won't be skirting the boundaries so much. And rather than giving harsh consequences. Respond with more mild negative consequences or even positive consequences, to reinforce positive behaviors.
Katherine Hurtig
What would that look like?
Curtis Bader
So reinforcing positive behaviors would be when maybe two siblings are playing and one sibling hits the other sibling for taking their toy rather than hitting them to punish them to show them what that feels like. That might be some people's reaction, but to avoid doing things like that, just to just correct them by saying “hey you don't hit, and that wasn't acceptable and I would like you to apologize.” And then when they've apologized, I thank you for doing that. I know, it would mean a lot to me if I was hurt and others apologized to me.
Katherine Hurtig
OK.
Curtis Bader
So kind of sticking with a mild or negative consequence and they're reinforcing what they did well that you'd like to see more of, does that make sense?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Curtis Bader
And the last thing that families can really do is - this is a critical one - foster psychological flexibility. When we have just a narrow view of how the world works or how we're supposed to respond to the world we discount so many other possibilities and more helpful ways of going about it, but when we're. Flexible, meaning we can entertain different perspectives. We can flip flop between seeing it this way or this way or this way it helps us to be more mindful, more aware of how we're thinking about things and more able to switch our approach to avoid getting stuck. So we can kind of get unstuck more quickly and more effectively.
The other thing it really helps with is to act according to our values. If we're aware of what we're thinking and feeling and aware of the consequence we want to see, we can start acting towards that even when it doesn't feel like we're encouraged to act that way. It's important that we are living our lives according to what we think is true and important for ourselves.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Thank you so much, Curtis. I think this is such an important topic and yeah, I've really enjoyed our conversation today.
Curtis Bader
Thank you so much
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in.
This episode was produced by Luiza Campos and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Curtis Bader.
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We’re available in your favorite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. If you're in Alberta, need help, please go to calgarycounselling.com or counsellingalberta.com for help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the US seek help from your General Medical practitioner.