Season 2, Episode 11: Strengthening Bonds: A Guide to Couples Counselling and Its Benefits
Couples counselling isn’t just for when your relationship is struggling. In this episode, social worker, Denis Sushkin, talks about how counselling can help couples in many ways including guiding you and your partner in making important decisions, processing feelings, and navigating the end of a relationship, especially when children are involved. The episode covers such topics as how to get the most out of couples therapy, the role of the counsellor, and breaks down some common misconceptions about counselling for your relationship. Tune in to understand how counselling can help you create the relationship you want and grow both individually and as a couple.
Enhancing your relationship – key takeaways from this episode
1. Seek Counselling Proactively
One of the most effective ways to benefit from couples counselling is to seek help before any major issues arise. Engaging in counselling early on can be more productive and can help address potential issues before they escalate. Whether you want to grow and develop your relationship, make a significant life decision, or even manage a breakup, proactive counselling can provide invaluable support.
2. Understanding the Counsellor’s Role
A counsellor plays multiple roles in couples counselling. They provide essential information on relationship development and conflict resolution. They can also act as coaches, helping couples develop the skills needed to improve their relationship. Counsellors also help couples process their feelings and work through past traumas. This comprehensive support system aids couples in growing both as individuals and together.
3. Importance of Communication and Empathy
Effective communication is crucial in any relationship. It involves both clearly expressing yourself as well as actively listening to your partner. Counselling helps couples develop key skills such as clear communication, setting boundaries, and demonstrating empathy. These skills are essential for maintaining a healthy relationship and can be applied to various aspects of life.
4. Navigating Relationship Changes
Relationships naturally evolve over time, and counselling can help couples navigate these changes. Understanding that the honeymoon phase doesn’t last forever and embracing the new stages of a relationship can lead to personal growth and a deeper connection with your partner. Sometimes, couples will decide to separate, and counselling can help them manage the transition, especially if children are involved. The process explores the concepts of grief and loss, helping couples achieve a meaningful ending or shift their relationship towards healthy co-parenting.
By setting common goals, finding a suitable therapist, and committing to the process, couples can maximize the benefits of counselling and create the relationship they want.
Tune in to the full episode to explore these insights and more, and learn how counselling can enhance your relationship.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully, a podcast dedicated to enhancing your mental well-being. Each episode explores valuable insights and practical strategies to help you lead a more fulfilling life. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
The idea of couples counselling is often viewed as a way to solve a problem. Your relationship is in trouble, so you go to therapy. But going for counselling with your partner can be a great tool for your relationship at many different stages. I talked with social worker Denis Sushkin and he explains what happens during couples counselling and challenges some of the stereotypes around it.
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Today I'm here with Dennis Shishkin. He's a counsellor at Calgary Counselling Centre, and we're going to talk about couples therapy, and we're going to break down some of the misconceptions around that and what you can get out of the counselling experience.
Thank you for being here today with me.
Denis Sushkin
You're welcome. It's my pleasure.
Katherine Hurtig
To start out like it's been a while since you've been on the podcast. Can you just introduce yourself and tell us a bit about you and your background?
Denis Sushkin
I've been with the Centre for five years, I'm a social worker.
Katherine Hurtig
Excellent. So you're pretty experienced in counselling couples?
Denis Sushkin
Yeah, that's one of the things that I like to specialize. Yeah. Couples and trauma are two things I'm most interested in.
Katherine Hurtig
Can you just kind of give us a bit of a rundown of the process of couples counselling and how it kind of differs from getting counselling just one on one?
Denis Sushkin
When couples come in, they often are unsure about what couples counselling is and what to expect of it so the main difference between individual and couples counselling, I think that the client in the process is the relationship, so it's not about the individuals, it's how they interact and how they want to improve the relationship. So the typical process is that a couple comes in, there is some kind of assessment process when therapist gets to know them, sees what's going on, and then they create a plan for achieving the goals that the couple wants to achieve.
Katherine Hurtig
Awesome.
I've seen on TV and movies - I think we all have - like this idea of couples counselling that a couple goes when their relationship isn't doing well, when there's when there's a problem, when there's something hard to get through. Would you say that that is pretty accurate? And would you say that that is like a good time to go in for counselling?
Denis Sushkin
I think it's pretty accurate. People do come in when there is some kind of crisis going on. I think it's true for all of us, like we usually reach out for help when there is something that we experience – we go to the doctor when we experience something and any doctor would usually tell us something along the line of an ‘apple a day keeps the doctor away’. So it's true with couples counselling too. So if people want to and can come in before some kind of crisis going on, I think they can be way more effective and productive with addressing the issues that will come later on.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Yeah. From what you've seen, what are some of like the main reasons that people come in for counselling as a couple?
Denis Sushkin
I think there are three main reasons that people come in. So some people come in like more of the proactive step. They know that they are committed and they want to grow and develop their relationship and there is no crisis going on. It's a bit of an exception from the rule usually, but also when people come in and there is some kind of conflict or crisis going on, that's also a reason that they want to grow and develop the relationship. The second reason why people come in is that they want to make some kind of big decision. Move in together, maybe to have kids or not to have kids, maybe move somewhere else. So any kind of big decision can be a good reason to comment for counselling. And the third reason is people sometimes want to separate well. They want to end the relationship.
Katherine Hurtig
And they come in for counselling for that too? OK.
Denis Sushkin
Yeah, they want to make sure that they have a meaningful ending. Sometimes the relationship doesn't end like when people have kids for example in relationships.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Denis Sushkin
And it’s not that the relationship is ending, the relationship is changing or transforming still will be in the relationship and they need to be able to work together as a team still. Maybe they're not romantic partners anymore.
Katherine Hurtig
That sounds very healthy to come in when you're going to end a relationship.
Denis Sushkin
I think we put so much emphasis on the beginning of the relationship – weddings, celebrations, and milestone, uh, we're getting together, but relationships end and I think they those ends deserve the same kind of attention too.
Katherine Hurtig
You know, they come in for all these reasons. And then what is your role as a counsellor?
Denis Sushkin
There are usually 3 components to the therapist role. So sometimes therapists can provide information, good information for like the development of a relationship, any kind of information about sexuality, for example, general information about conflict resolution. So providing information is one role that the therapist can play. And then there is a role that they usually call more of a coach, when people want to develop skills to improve the relationship. So there is some kind of active learning going on. And also there is more work on like what people would usually call it. You know, more traditional therapy work like processing thoughts, emotions, maybe healing past traumas, or repairing the relationship.
Katherine Hurtig
Are there times when you've been working with a couple and they have maybe a misconception of what your role is? And an expectation that isn't quite true?
Denis Sushkin
Mm-hmm. Totally. Well, I think - and it’s more about just couples therapy - any kind of therapy starts with this process. That and the technical term is the role induction.
Katherine Hurtig
A role induction? OK.
Denis Sushkin
But yeah. So the idea that because therapy is actually a tailored approach, individual couples, yeah, it's not a cookie cutter like here are the steps that 10 steps go through them and then things will be better.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally
Denis Sushkin
So that means in the beginning there is a process when both clients and therapists, they clarify expectations, they set those goals.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally, yeah.
Speaker 2
All therapists work differently. There are so many different approaches to therapy. People who … they count up to like 1000 different approaches.
Katherine Hurtig
Is there really? Wow.
Denis Sushkin
Yeah. So it's kind of this idea of, we need to sit down and clarify expectations and clarify like what's expected of you. What's expected of me is a really crucial step. It's not something that people do before counselling at some active part of counselling.
Katherine Hurtig
Some couples come into counselling to, you know, to grow and develop their relationship. What have you seen in terms of challenges that couples face when they're when they're doing that?
Denis Sushkin
Anyone who's been in the relationship knows that a relationship is a lot of work. Yeah, it's not an easy process. I think the challenge is how to grow and develop as individuals, but also as a couple together. So how can people stay like, keep the ‘I’ and ‘we’ and both develop simultaneously in good effective way.
I recently watched an interview with Bono from U2 and he had, I think, a really good quote that captures what I'm trying to say. He was talking about his marriage of 40 plus years with his wife and he said something along the lines that “we didn't fall in love - we've been climbing up towards it.”
Katherine Hurtig
Oh I like that.
Denis Sushkin
Yeah. So this idea that it's not the falling in love that counts. It's not about the initial, but the process of growing and changing together.
Katherine Hurtig
It’s true. Yeah. And I think, yeah, that can be so tough because, yeah, you do have this common goal of, you know, spending a life together or building a relation, but sometimes those individual goals, they don't always… or not necessarily goals, but just how you change as a person. Those don't always align.
Denis Sushkin
Yeah, and it takes a lot of deliberate action to keep them aligned. And sometimes it's about goals, but it's also like I think just the visual of like being on the hike. I think like if you've been on the hike like channel and kind of like think of it challenging hike. And you're coming with someone. There are a lot of things that come out during the hike, different personalities, different needs, how people deal with stress. So it just can be a really good visual. Like you might have a good common goal. We want to get there. We want to see that view. But the process of getting there. Like when I get grumpy and tired when someone I'm hiking with is getting grumpy and tired at the same time and how we deal with it can be well, the fun part of the process of hiking.
Katherine Hurtig
It's really funny that this the analogy of a hike came up because I remember like, I adore my husband. He's amazing. And I think we have a really great relationship, but we did go on a very challenging hike once and it did not go very well.
Denis Sushkin
Yeah, it's not a sign that there's something wrong. It's a sign that there's something, right, but it's just, yeah, normal.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. No, totally.
Denis Sushkin
Best friends can go on that hike and just have the nastiest argument about how to get there.
Katherine Hurtig
So you'd mentioned one reason that that couples come in is figure out how to make bigger life decisions. Like having children and moving in together. Yeah. How does counselling kind of work in that process?
Denis Sushkin
Well, all of those three main reasons why people come in I think the process can be somewhat similar. But also each couple is unique and they have like… and that's like when people think about the process of counselling like the initial stage of assessing and making sure like what are the needs, what are the things that people need to develop is crucial. And but when it comes to those big decisions, sometimes it's about setting some time aside. And just like being intentional about having conversations with someone who can structure it, sometimes it's about developing skills about how to communicate better. Sometimes it's about helping each partner, maybe even identify what's important to them in that decision. So there can be a lot of different things that people work on.
Katherine Hurtig
So when you say develop skills, what kind of skills are we talking about?
Denis Sushkin
The most common ones is about how to communicate effectively and when you think about communication, it's about how to reveal yourself effectively, how to talk about your own things, but also the other side of it, how to listen effectively.
And, you know, people play active roles in both. Like you play an active role and being heard, for example, and at the same time you when you're listening. You play an active role in how the other person is speaking. How you listen shapes the other person's experience too. So sometimes it's about skill of setting boundaries. Sometimes it's the skill of how to show empathy effectively. Yeah. So they’re the most common skills that people work on.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, like communication and boundaries?
Denis Sushkin
Communication, boundaries, empathy.
Katherine Hurtig
If a couple came in here and you know they were, they've been talking about maybe moving in together, not quite sure, how do you kind of lead them through that? What kinds of questions do you prompt them with to get them thinking, what exercises do they work on?
Denis Sushkin
The initial step will be what is it that they want to achieve by having this kind of conversation. When I hear this, I usually think like, OK, so they want to talk about moving in together. It sounds more like a means to be an end. And I would want to hear from them first of all and help them kind of like and make them kind of first tool for strategy to use. So what will it allow them to do? Is it about actually learning how to talk together? Is it about, for example, maybe conflict resolution? Maybe it's about moving in together. It's just a small step towards bigger commitment and thinking through like what kind of relationship we want to create together. For example, if it's about communication, there are a couple of different speaker listener exercises that people can do when people take turns talking about what's important to them. I think it's such an interesting process, like we all learn how to take turns when we’re kids.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Denis Sushkin
At some point, we just forget. In certain contexts maybe we forget how to take turns effectively. So a good exercise can be just like, hey, let's just slow down and then just take like, one person will take time and take the turn to actually just reveal everything that they're thinking. Maybe it will be not just the opportunity to articulate it to other person, but even like an opportunity to discover and explore it and discover parts of themselves.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I don't know if a lot of us think that deeply about it. Like what's important to me in this situation? Yeah.
Denis Sushkin
Yeah. And it's really easy to misalign sometimes because there's always… we don't think about what's important, but we always have something that's important to us. And there's almost like 2 levels, like the value of the meaning, but also how we operationalize the value of the meaning. Yeah. So and we only see what we do, without understanding the meaning behind it, and it can be really easy place where people just misunderstand each other and the conflict creates. But if you understand what's the significance of the meaning behind the actions you see in the other person. Now I know because like we see like we see what we see through our own eyes.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And intention is important.
Denis Sushkin
Yeah, yeah. Intention and the the value that's that it brings to the other person.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I mean, not, not everyone is meant to stay together and sometimes splitting up is the best idea for a couple, so when it comes to, like you phrased it, separating well, what guidance and support can couples counselling offer during this time, during this process?
Denis Sushkin
Yeah. So again, it's very unique process that will depend on the couple. But for some couples, it's just about having a meaningful ending and almost like celebrate and reflect back on the relationship that they had. It's almost like the chapter is ending, so let's sit down. Let's work through things, let’s notice emotions that come out think thoughts that come out, maybe even sharing resolve things that haven't been resolved yet. So there is nothing lingering but for a lot of people, separating is not about ending the relationship, but it's about changing or transforming the relationship. Because if a couple has been, for example together for 10 years and they have kids together, that means they will still be in a relationship, not a romantic relationship anymore, but they will have to co-parent, they will have to be there for those big events for the kids. They will have to be there for their kids, graduation, weddings, grandchildren.
Katherine Hurtig
And figuring out how to enter into that new version of a relationship, yeah.
Denis Sushkin
Right. Yeah. Some people just want to OK, let's be there for our kids, and there's nothing else. Some people want to end the romantic part of their relationship, and they want to stay friends and that that's where, for example, the boundaries can be helpful. People would be recalibrating everything.
Katherine Hurtig
Right, yes. Yeah, very different boundaries in that scenario. Have you experienced working with a couple who, let's say they don't have children, but they come in to end the relationship?
Denis Sushkin
I've had situations when they come to counselling for one thing, but then they realized, well, you know what it's not about changing and growing together, it's time to go our own separate ways.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. And I don't know, I guess we tend to think of the ending of a relationship with negative feelings. Somebody's upset, somebody's angry. It's not always a joint decision.
Denis Sushkin
Part of any kind of ending, it's almost like, and I'll take it outside of the context of the couples therapy and like this kind of like big transitions. But like when we even change jobs and you go to a job that's kind of like meaningful and you like it, the job that you're leaving, it's like there is some grief and loss and there is some sadness about the transition. So any step forward means that you're leaving something behind.
Katherine Hurtig
Does that idea come up in couples counselling, the idea of grief and loss?
Denis Sushkin
Yeah, totally. In a lot of different contexts. Grief and loss is messy, and it's not a very straightforward process. People often discover there’s kind of like two processes that can feel very contradictory processes happening at the same like they're moving forward then they can like you know how something is changing and I'm excited and like ohh, this is really sad.
Katherine Hurtig
OK.
Denis Sushkin
And it's like happening at the same time and it's when you have two people, it's just like it's inevitable that they will have two different experiences of this can be hard to see kind of one person like might be more sad than excited about the change. And another person is the opposite and it's not that one is the better or more like one person is right and the other one is not, it's just it's yeah. Grief is a messy process.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Really switching gears, so the idea of the honeymoon stage, I think any person who's experienced a relationship understands that like the first part of relationship is very exciting and new, and what have you seen in in your work about that stage ending and how that changes a relationship?
Denis Sushkin
Well, yeah, the reality of it is the end of the honeymoon stage is inevitable. So there is no way around it. And really, there are two ways how people go about this kind of change. Some people really want to hold on to this honeymoon and this kind of like bliss. Have happily ever after is the idea or the goal of the relationship. I feel like the social media and all the movies are not helping with this.
Katherine Hurtig
No.
Denis Sushkin
Usually in the movie there is a kind of challenge that the couple overcomes and then happily ever after.
kh
Yeah. I know it kind of ends at like the wedding or like the decision to stay together or something, but then they don't show the mundane and the everyday and like.
Denis Sushkin
Yeah.. They don't show or waiting and then they're old and just retiring together. Honeymoon stage is inevitable. So some people really resist. And they just hold on to it. And they just creates more challenges. Couples often gets stuck when one or both hold on to this idea of the honeymoon stage and like we're one and the same, and let's make sure that we keep it this way.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, like I get it. I mean that stage, it's great. But it's you got to kind of look at it like it's a different stage. It's a different time and it's not any worse than any other. It's just you've grown.
Denis Sushkin
Yeah, resisting is one option. Another option is that people embrace this. OK, so that's happening. They know that's gonna happen. They embrace those moments when the first disillusionment hit their relationship. Those kind of like oh we've been, it's been great, it was a bliss, and now, now my partner can do something that's annoying. Or like it's like I'm a morning person and they’re an evening person and we can't find a good way to, like, make it work. And it becomes like I'm more tired in the evening and then just it turns into a conflict. So yeah, so embracing, noticing those disillusionments and then working through them.
So a couple can create like a space when you have this idea of like both individuals can have a place to be, they can be true to themselves who they are, but also they can be close to the other person who is very different from them.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I like to think of it like it's really nice because you've become more comfortable with that person.
Denis Sushkin
But that's where kind of where the inevitability of conflict and the crucial aspect of having a good conflict resolution skills is also important.
Denis Sushkin
I know a lot of it is communication but, ban you give any examples of how couples can kind of work on having that conflict in a healthy way?
Denis Sushkin
That's a really important process and it's really sometimes like it's such a cool process to help people on the journey with because we have the whole idea, I think goes back to this like how to get close to the other person while still being true to myself, this person who is different from me, they have different habits, different history, different everything. They think differently. I love them, but they're different from me. Yeah, and the conflict resolution is kind of it's a two… well, there are three things here because in any relationship, this is also the perspective of partner A and the perspective of partner B and then the place where those two perspectives can kind of co-exist together. So for conflict resolution, both partners need to be able to 1st differentiate themselves, know what they're thinking, feeling, wanting, dreaming about. Being able to articulate those things to, to themselves, then they need to be able to tolerate the tension that the other person. Has their own thoughts, feelings, dreams, desires, and also the important step of risking emotionally, risking putting up your own thoughts into the relationship. Hey, that's what I'm thinking, being vulnerable and open. But like, you know what? Like when you left those dishes in the sink, it's just like I felt unsupported.
Katherine Hurtig
It's so funny, whenever I talk to counsellors about couples, that example of dirty dishes comes up every time.
Denis Sushkin
I can come up with another example can be well how people manage money. Yeah, that can be a good example. Like it's overall, I think like sex, death and money are three topics of the hardest to talk about.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally.
Denis Sushkin
Again, the conflict resolution comes when it's kind of people can talk about those things. Both of them can feel heard and understood by the other person when they can reach this kind of like soothing moment in their conversation, or you get me.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Denis Sushkin
You might not agree with me, but you get me. When people get there, I think I feel like problem solving. It's like such a small thing. But people don't even need much help once they understand each other, where they're coming from, when they can get to that soothing moment. Often, like some kind of problem solving, growth solution comes up.
Katherine Hurtig
Compromise or?
Denis Sushkin
Well, it can be a compromise sometimes to like, oh, now I know what's it's like for you. So I'm way more kind of like relaxed. You know, it doesn't have to be a compromise.
Katherine Hurtig
OK. Yes. Yeah, right. If there are scenarios where a compromise needs to happen, like one person wants something one way. One person wants the dishes to soak and the other wants to do them right away. You know, in a scenario like someone's not going to get their way, how do you work with a couple to tolerate that, to work towards compromise, that kind of thing.
Denis Sushkin
Well, first of all, I don't think there are a lot of topics that people like just like that will be deal breakers where people cannot find some kind of solution. So it's yeah, it's hard for me to like show them up. Probably going like to have kids or not to have kids. Maybe there is no middle ground.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Denis Sushkin
But overall, I think it's yeah, it's rare to see people not be able to come to some kind of solution to. And I think the main thing is they like identifying what's the significance, what's the meaning, because the dishes in the sink it can represent not being supported. Sometimes maybe efforts not being recognized. Maybe it's about fairness. So those dishes and things can represent so many different things. So once people know or it's not about the dishes it’s about support, trust of fairness. Like who? Who would say that's not the value of support? The value of fairness is like not is not important. That's where it's, like how people operationalize those values, you know, like it's different, but once they know what they're talking about, it's much easier To give what the other person is asking for.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, like the meaning behind it. So we've talked a lot about how like it's kind of a three-part thing with couples counselling like it’s about the relationship, but also about each individual person. So how does couples counselling, how can it help you gain clarity about yourself?
Denis Sushkin
Well, and that's that goes back to that idea of self-differentiation. The idea that you cannot in your in the relationship you're responsible for understanding what's happening for you. Identifying what are your thoughts, feelings, desires, dreams. Are being able to articulate them and even discover further. Sometimes I know what's going on for me and then once I slow down and think more. Oh, no, actually this thought is connected to that and that this process of self-discovery can be an important part of the therapy. Then the ability to find words and articulate it to other person risk and tolerate this kind of risk and putting this out there and I know how to take care of myself. One, this is what this is happening. It's a very individual process as well.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So this kind of counselling, it can kind of help you figure out what's important to you. How can it kind of help you shape an idea of the kind of partner you want to be in the relationship you want to have?
Denis Sushkin
Yeah, I think it's a, it's such a big question. And it's one of the important first steps in therapy is identifying the big picture. What kind of relationship do I want to have and then getting to a place of like how can we like what kind of relationship do we want to have. This can change over time. Relationships shift and evolve and there are kind of different needs and their different even needs for like closeness, separateness sometimes. People need to navigate and find the right balance. But then in this big picture, there's also an element like what kind of partner do I want to be to make sure that this kind of big picture happens. And this is not, it's just the one time decision. It's like you have to make this decision every single day. It's similar to like deciding to get an exercise routine or learn to play an instrument. It's not like, oh, OK, I've decided I'm going to run half marathon in a year. You have this big picture, but then you need to make the decision every single day when you have. Well, it's -40 outside. I don't want to go out though. I don't want to train right now. I just want to stay here and then come again like the next day will come with its own challenges. So it's, it's about identifying key the kind of person I want to be that will help me to make those decisions every day.
Katherine Hurtig
I really like the way that you framed that and I think not a lot of people think of it that way. Like what kind of a partner do I want to be to have the relationship that we want to have? I think that's great, yeah.
Denis Sushkin
Yeah, I think can be a bit cheesy for it, like it takes two to tango. That's the kind of I think the practical side of it. Yeah, each one of us like we play an active role in making sure that the relationship is the kind of relationship we want to be in.
Katherine Hurtig
So how can someone, or how can a couple get the most out of the counselling experience? What advice do you have for someone that's starting the process?
Denis Sushkin
Starting from like making sure that both of you on the same page that yes, we want this. Getting to the place where like yes, that's the goal for us or maybe like hey, we have two different goals. Let's bring both of them to the session and let's figure out how we can make sure we work on both of them or combine them. Then the process of like finding the right therapist for them for themselves because, like, yeah, the relationship between the couple and the therapist is the main vehicle for change. Like, you know, like, we can always predict, like, just making sure that people start working with someone and then like, continuously checking, like, is this working? Is this kind of therapy we want to have? I think the hardest piece for a lot of most couples I've worked with is this idea that, oh, I need to take responsibility for my thing. Yeah. And make sure that I work on my side of the street because, like, when arguments happen at home for me, like the initials, kind of like thought or inputs. Like oh, well, my partner is wrong and I'm right and she needs to work on things.
Katherine Hurtig
Yearh, like the other person needs to change.
Denis Sushkin
Yeah. So kind of this idea that if the relationship between two people is the main client in this therapy process, then it means it takes two people to make it work. Means two people to make it dysfunctional quite often. I'm not talking about, like, something more extreme things like domestic violence. For day-to-day conflicts, day-to-day arguments and day-to-day misalignments between couples, such as, like well, it takes two to make that happen. So it's hard, but coming in with the idea. OK, I'll do my best to show up here and work on things that I can contribute to.
Katherine Hurtig
Like when that's difficult for a person in a in a couple and you're seeing that in the counselling room like, yeah, how do you communicate that? What ways do you kind of recommend a person working on taking more responsibility for themselves?
Denis Sushkin
Well, sometimes because my OK going back to the role that therapist can play sometimes it's about like just providing context, providing some good information, but what's normal? Having a good reference point for people to like to say well, it does take two people to make this relationship work or not work. And It's not, in a way to like blame. Hey, It's your fault. You're responsible for this, but just like, it's like a serve and return, like one person does something, I respond, they respond to my response. It's like the conversation we're having. You're asking a question. I'm saying something. Then you're responding to something I'm saying. So both of us are playing a role to make this this conversation happen.
Katherine Hurtig
Right, yeah.
Denis Sushkin
So the same thing happens in the in the relationship on the bigger scale. So sometimes providing like some kind of analogy, sometimes it's about providing, well, research shows that about 70 percent of all the arguments happened because there are two different individuals in the in the relationship, one person is an introvert, one person is an extrovert, one person is a morning person, one person is an evening person. One person leans to be more organized. One person leans more to being a bit messy. So if that's the reality, that means it's not about making one person more like the other, but finding a kind of like a way to talk about those things, work through those things and create like a third way for the couple. So it's not just like or I have the right, I have the answers, my partner needs to just adapt them and change and become more like me. So yeah. And to make it happen you do need both people.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. How can they identify the roles that they play in a in a relationship?
Denis Sushkin
For some people, it's easier for some people, it can be harder and that's where like the third party can be helpful like if people get stuck and they have no way to see what's going on. So having another person who can tell you, hey, here's what I'm seeing, like, let's identify what's going on can be helpful. But overall kind of going back to this comparison with the conversation. It can be just a little exercise that people can do so, when I do X, how does my partner respond to what I do? And then when they respond to my response, how do I respond? And just like going back and forth a little bit and just like, so much like stepping away, so you're not seeing just the trees, but the forest as well. Like if there was a fly on the wall watching our interaction, what kind of back and forth will be visible here? So that can be a good way to just like step back and notice and there are a couple of just like common address like there is a one person would tend to like distance themselves from the conflict, so the other person will just like pursue them more and like reach out for more just like it becomes like and the more the second person just pursues them, most likely that's another invitation to the first to the person first person to just like I'll just stay away.
Katherine Hurtig
To retreat even more.
Denis Sushkin
Because that's another just like natural difference one person might want to resolve everything right there in that moment. Yeah. And that's just like natural tendency on their behalf. And the other person might have time to say, well, I just need some time to think and think through and like, come up with what I want to say so it's meaningful and respectful, and sometimes those can clash and it just becomes like a pattern doesn't matter what they're talking about, like, again, money, parenting, in-laws, whatever it is, just like it was just the same pattern. I heard once it was compared to like the couples ability to separate the lyrics of the conflict from the music.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Denis Sushkin
So the lyrics meaning like that's the topic. That's the kind of like what goes into the kind of like the words. Music being like, there is a set structure – verse, chorus, bridge - and you repeat. What's the dance between us? What's the music that we're dancing to? If they can identify that, that can be a helpful step toward , oh, that's happening. Like, how can we work towards changing this kind of pattern.
Katherine Hurtig
Conceptualize it a bit more. You know, a lot of couples counselling, it does have to do with, you know, resolving a certain conflict - how does that process help to build intimacy in a relationship?
Denis Sushkin
Well, and that's another area where I sometimes need to provide context information to people, but the inherent purpose of a conflict is to create intimacy. It's inevitable that conflict will happen. And the idea that they if people can resolve it effectively and we don't really understand each other, but we can also like create like something that will be mindful and respectful of both of our perspectives. So this is such and revealing themselves to somebody else. Having the experience of like, oh, I see you. I hear you. I understand you. I also have a different perspective from this and I can listen to that perspective too. And when people can create something new out of it. It's a very creative and intimate process, so like conflict, resolution or conflicts can be just like similar to building a strong bridge between two people.
Katherine Hurtig
That's a beautiful way to look at it. I'm going to think about that the next time an argument comes up.
Denis Sushkin
Yeah, it's not an easy thing to think about. Like just building a strong bridge right now when the only thing you want to say is something not very appropriate. But yeah, it's good. I think again, that's the skill of like stepping back sometimes maybe. And practicing like this, like hating the moment, not the person. Hating the disconnection that that happens, but still thinking that like, well, conflicts is also painful because you get disconnected from someone that you really care about.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's not fun, no. Thank you so much for chatting with me Denis. Is there anything else that you wanted our listeners to know about couples counselling before we go?
Denis Sushkin
Yeah. Don't be afraid to reach out for help. It's totally normal. A lot of people use it as a good tool.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's a really good point. It is very, very normal. Conflict is inevitable if you're with someone long enough, you're going to butt heads about something at some point. So.
Denis Sushkin
Yeah. And some people like it's not only about conflict, but some people are great about and like just growing on their own and they can just, like, organize themselves and set things aside and set goals and go through the process of like learning and growing. And some people just need some extra help in on that journey too. So if people want to just, like, develop and grow their relationships sometimes, yeah, it's totally fine to get the help that they need.
Speaker 1
Yeah, nothing wrong with that. Thank you.
Denis Sushkin
You're welcome.
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in.
We want to thank you so much for listening to Living Fully this year. We're taking a little break for the summer, but we'll be back with new episodes starting September 3rd.
This episode was produced by Gus Hunt, Luiza Campos, Jenna Forbes, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. Special thanks to Denis Sushkin.
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favorite podcast app. Living fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling for anyone in Alberta with no wait list and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com or counsellingalberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the US seek help from your General Medical practitioner.