Season 2, Episode 12: Campus Confidence: Mastering Stress and Self-Care for Academic Success
In this episode of Living Fully, we explore the challenges that come with college and university life. From juggling classes, part-time jobs, and a social life to maintaining healthy habits, the demands of post-secondary education can be overwhelming. Psychologist Joel Zimmerman discusses the realities of student life and offers strategies for managing stress and time effectively. We delve into common pressures like financial worries and balancing academics with personal life, and Joel provides actionable tips to help you build resilience and maintain a positive mindset throughout your academic journey.
Navigating post-secondary life: key takeaways from this episode
1. Understanding Common Stressors
College and university life bring about new responsibilities that can quickly become overwhelming. Students need to juggle multiple responsibilities — attending classes, studying, working part-time jobs, while also maintaining friendships. The stress of managing these responsibilities, coupled with the pressure to make healthy lifestyle choices, can take a toll on mental health. It's crucial for students to recognize these stressors early on and address them proactively.
2. Embracing a Growth Mindset
One of the most powerful tools students can use to navigate challenges is a growth mindset. Joel Zimmerman explains that a growth mindset involves viewing challenges as opportunities for personal and academic growth. Instead of seeing setbacks as failures, students can reframe them as learning experiences. This mindset not only helps in managing stress but also fosters resilience, enabling students to bounce back from difficult situations stronger and more confident.
3. Managing Financial Autonomy
For many students, college or university is the first time they’re handling their finances independently. From budgeting to managing expenses, the financial responsibilities of post-secondary life can be daunting. Joel shares practical advice on how to maintain financial stability, and the importance and benefits of using a budget. By managing their finances effectively, students can reduce financial stress and better focus on their studies and personal development.
4. Balancing School, Work, and Personal Life
Achieving a balance between academics, work, and personal life is often easier said than done. Many students struggle to fit everything in, leading to stress, burnout, and decreased productivity. Joel discusses time management strategies that can help students allocate their time more effectively, ensuring they meet their academic goals while still enjoying a fulfilling personal life.
5. Coping with Stress and Building Resilience
Stress is an inevitable part of post-secondary life, but it doesn’t have to be overwhelming. Joel shares several coping mechanisms that students can use to manage stress effectively. Building resilience is also essential; it’s about developing the ability to adapt to stress and bounce back from adversity. By practicing these skills, students can navigate the ups and downs of academic life with greater ease.
6. Recognizing When to Seek Help
Mental health concerns such as anxiety and depression are common among students, but they often go unrecognized or untreated. Joel emphasizes the importance of being aware of the signs of mental health issues and knowing when to seek help. Whether it’s talking to a counsellor or accessing campus mental health services, getting the right support at the right time can make all the difference.
Navigating post-secondary life can be challenging, but with the right strategies and mindset, students can not only manage but thrive. For more in-depth insights and practical tips, tune in to the full episode of Living Fully.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully, a podcast dedicated to enhancing your mental well-being. Each episode explores valuable insights and practical strategies to help you lead a more fulfilling life. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
It's no secret that the college and university years can be a challenge. Balancing classes, studying, part time jobs, maintaining friendships, and finding time for healthy habits like eating well and exercising can be overwhelming. The stress and pressure of these responsibilities can impact your mental health if not managed carefully.
In this episode, I talk with psychologist Joel Zimmerman about what post-secondary life is really like and how to handle it. We’ll cover common stressors like managing money and balancing school, work, and personal life. Joel will share some practical tips for managing stress and time and explain how a growth mindset can help build your resilience when facing challenges.
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So today I am here with Joel Zimmerman and we are going to get into the stress around college and university life. How can manage that, overcome it, tips and tricks. Thanks so much for being here with me, Joel.
Joel Zimmerman
Happy to be here.
Katherine Hurtig
So it's been little while since you've been on the podcast. Can you tell us a bit about yourself and your background?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. So I am a registered psychologist in the province of Alberta. I've been at the Calgary Counselling Centre since 2018.
Katherine Hurtig
Me too.
Speaker 2
Yeah, isn’t that funny. I remember we kind of showed up at the same time, but I think for the purposes of this one, this podcast, I went to Mount Royal University for my undergrad – I did my undergrad in psychology took me about six years and then I did my masters at the University of Lethbridge and so I have some experience in the university world.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, you're well versed, for sure.
Joel Zimmerman
I've definitely spent some time in university and kind of growing up in my 20s and then experiencing that so.
Katherine Hurtig
Awesome. So, Joel, what in your opinion, are some of like the most common sources of stress for university and college students?
Joel Zimmerman
Well, I think a lot of them kind of come as no brainers in the sense that, you know, there are the main transitionary time in life. When you're coming into university, there are a lot of things that are changing in your life. Your social life is changing. Potentially where you live is changing for the first time. And you're starting to get into a world where there is a little bit more expectation that you have some independence and that independence doesn't necessarily come naturally to some people and the people who we become independent from, like our families, that also doesn't really come natural to them.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
You know, you've spent the last 18 years potentially living in someone's house, and now you're expected to go out and do something a little bit on your own, maybe for the first time. So I think there are a lot of factors that can make university life and that time of life really successful for people and a really beneficial time and a really, you know, prosperous time. But some of the same factors can also, you know, be the… it can kind of make it or break it. You know, again you can have a supportive family who is really behind you. You can also have a family that is just as supportive, but they have high expectations of you and so again like the expectations on you is like a great example of just a general stressor like how you handle expectations and what expectations are on you.
How you kind of manage the demands of change. Knowing that you were in a high school, maybe or you were in a smaller school setting and now you're kind of on your own to decide how you do things. You know you're now responsible, potentially for maybe looking after yourself a little bit more, getting yourself places, feeding yourself, clothing yourself, looking after your basics, and learning at a really high level. Doing what you're doing in school and in a university setting or a college setting or a trade school. You're operating at a higher level. And you might also be expected to like look after yourself. And so how you juggle lots of different things can be a real stressor for some people.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, when you put it like that, that sounds like a lot of change all at once. So I think for anyone that would…That could be a bit overwhelming, absolutely.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. And I mean it's not that that is the stressor, right? That's something that people really thrive in. That's something that like, oh, like, here's this opportunity for me to decide what I do with my day, essentially. And for some people that's really freeing, really liberating, really exciting. And sometimes that is overwhelming, and that is it's hard to focus on one of those things. And again, when one of them also is, you know, an academic setting where maybe you invested time, you invested money, you worked really hard to get where you are. People are kind of relying on you maybe? Maybe you're somebody who is a first time in your family. The first person who's you know seeking secondary education. There might be a lot riding on you to go and become successful. So the external pressures I think are one of the main things, but again it's like this, you know, people come into university or people come into this time in their life. And I don't just want to say university because I think it's it is also just like a time of life…
Katherine Hurtig
Right. a stage, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Where you're yeah. Stage of life where you're launching, if you will. You’re getting out and you're experiencing something new. Yeah, there's a lot that can make it or break it, and there's a lot of people who can really do a lot of success in that. And a lot of challenge that can from that.
Katherine Hurtig
And I think it’s about your mindset, right? I remember a conversation we had a few years ago about good stress. And I think a lot of this can kind of fit into that category, like, yes, these changes might be stressful, but you're growing from all of that, like that new independence and the kind of autonomy you have when you're in university.
Joel Zimmerman
It's a learning opportunity. Is. It is a time for experimentation and learning, and in more than just the classroom setting.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally.
Joel Zimmerman
And so that's something that is hard to again kind of wrap our heads around sometimes. And what I think is a big make or break difference for a lot of people I think will talk about it as we go on in this conversation, but a growth mindset to say, like everything that I'm doing here is new, potentially and is something that I can learn from and I think that good stress maybe that we're kind of talking about too has to do with like a mindset around what is a challenge, what is a failure, how are we defining these things? It's really easy to get caught up in this, like fear of failure, or I have to be successful, I have to reach this point, I have to do this. That's the thing that can really get in people's way, but it can also be very motivating when we do learn to see some of these challenges, even failures, as learning opportunities. Hey, I didn't do this well and I need to learn how.
Katherine Hurtig
that term growth mindset. I've kind of heard that, you know, in the mental health world. Can you kind of define that a bit for us?
Joel Zimmerman
An attitude towards failure. I think a growth mindset to me has to do with like an attitude towards failure. When you're experiencing and you're trying something and it doesn't go well. A growth mindset is something that allows you to look at that thing and say, OK, that sucked. I screwed up, maybe we take some responsibility, we take some ownership or we take stock and look at what we did and that growth mindset then is that ability to take that and say, OK, what am I going to do differently next time? You know, this was bad. Maybe it really cost me. Maybe it cost me time, maybe it cost me money. I'm not downplaying, you know, a growth mindset doesn't make a huge error or a real big challenge, nothing, but it doesn't change the fact that
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, it doesn't negate the fact…
Joel Zimmerman
Maybe something you know changing university courses, you know, while you're in the program or, or deciding that a designation that you were shooting for is not the right fit for you, is potentially a time… maybe you've lost some time, you've lost some money. There are real challenges, but again, having that growth mindset from something like that is that ability to say OK and how do I kind of translate that into, you know my process going forward? How do I translate that into growth? And so yeah, I think growth mindset, I think we'll talk about it in a number of different ways. Think it'll probably permeate this entire conversation.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, totally. So heading off to university, it's definitely not a cheap thing. And yeah, that financial strain of being a student can be a bit overwhelming. What advice do you have for students who are kind of struggling with that stress?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. Well, again, you know, here's a great example. Is that like this is a learning ground and financial strain is not something unique to university students at that time of life, right?
Katherine Hurtig
No. Especially now, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Especially now. Everyone in your early adult years and on has to have some recognition that how you manage your finances and money and how you make money and how you spend money and how you manage yourself with that money, matters. So again, here's that growth mindset to say, you know, we could look at this question again as like what are the financial strains of this? Another way to say it is like, for somebody in this time of life, what are the things they need to learn right now while they're still relatively low to the ground? Maybe like as if to say you could fall, you could stumble every university student, or every person is different. Maybe you do have children. Maybe you do have partners, housing. You know, there are things that again could really fall.
Katherine Hurtig
But I get what you're saying. Like you know, an average19, 20 year old - not paying for a mortgage, doesn't have children, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, the average person right doesn't have that many responsibilities in that way, but financially they might need to be taking more autonomy or more responsibility for their finances and now’s a good time to figure it out.
Katherine Hurtig
I know what you mean though. Sometimes you have to make mistakes to learn, not to make them again.
Joel Zimmerman
I qualify this as a time of experimentation and learning. All the clients that I work with and again, it's very often working with young people and their families and how to navigate this because again, there's expectations. Our family is there to help us learn how to do these things and they tell us you have to learn how to budget, you have to learn how to manage your money, you have to learn how to make money, you have to get a job, you have to do these things. And yeah, those are great messages, but a lot of it is a bit of the school of Hard Knocks like you have to kind of figure it out.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, trial and error.
Joel Zimmerman
You have to be able to go out and do it. So you know it's fantastic and you know, I'm I was really grateful in my experience that I had great support financial support to do what I needed to do and that's not always the case for other people, but I think what is important again is understanding that there are options. when we are just talking about getting in and doing the time in university life that is necessary like it, you do need money to make it work in a lot of ways and financial aid options, using your school's government grants, scholarships. These are tools that we can use, and I think one of the big stressors is again, maybe that there's a stigma against using things like financial aid and other services. And, you know, scholarships and stuff. Again, there is. Maybe there's a merit. Maybe there's something that you have to achieve to get it, but there are ways that maybe take some of that burden off, allow you to have a little bit more flexibility. But I mean, I think I'd be remiss if we didn't just say, you know, make sure that you do have that prioritization of your wants over your needs and you are thinking about budgeting and that's not something that I mean I didn't figure out budgeting until I was out of university, really, actually, COVID was actually a time when I really started to figure out my financial literacy, educating myself and so again, I think I come back to the idea that this is a time of education. This is a time for learning. If you don't know these things, being able to recognize really realistically what am I good at? What am I bad at? This something that I'm not familiar with. Are there questions that I don't know the answer to? What is tax free savings account? What is a TFSA? What is an RRSP? You know, if you don't know these things, you're in the you're in a growth mindset. If you are able to say, OK, I don't know the answer to this. I'm going to go find out. You’re learning. You have access to academia. You have access to resources and stuff in a way that you know, a lot of people actually don't in the academic world. So you can translate a lot of that to say I'm learning whatever I'm learning in my in my graduate studies or my undergrad or my trade school. What do I need to learn for my financial piece? Do I need to learn to understand money?
Katherine Hurtig
And you're. There are so many resources out there.
Joel Zimmerman
Absolutely, yeah. Scholarships and yeah, financial aid options. Taking advantage of school student discounts. You know, being part of student bodies. I know in Calgary, there are a couple of different… there’s radio stations that offer memberships and stuff that you can pledge money to that will, you know, give you discounts around the city and stuff like that.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
So like you know, being a student is a great thing. If you have your student ID, you can probably get a student discount in a lot of places and take advantage of that. Being able to kind of just have a realistic expectation for yourself. Realistic discussions with the people around you about what your needs are. I think it's important.
Katherine Hurtig
So kind of on that, I mean if you're a student who does kind of have to pay their own way, there's, you know, there's a balance. There's, you know, attending class and all the work that goes in there. Might be a job. You know, personal obligations, balancing all that can be challenging. Yeah, what do you think about how students can kind of create a balanced schedule that addresses everything they need to do, but supports their mental health as well.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. So balancing kind of the… you know, the work-life balance, if you will, is I think what it kind of comes out as a lot is again a bit of I'm going to say it's a bit of a misnomer in the sense that balancing implies this idea that like there are scales that you have to balance out and one thing is on one side of your academic work and your personal life is on the other. And that's great when you want to kind of say, OK. How do we balance these? But on the other hand, it kind of puts them in opposition. It's as if to say if you have one, you can't have the other.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
And why I bring that up is because I think there's a lot to say about integration and kind of finding satisfaction and finding that way to do those things that we love, you know, academia is really important and how you study, how you attend your classes, how you give time for your assignments. Obviously when people are thinking about balancing out their time, they're thinking about okay I have to, you know, use time blocking, I have to schedule these things. And when you do that again, if you can find time for those other things like self-care and personal time and social life and extracurricular activities. Again, it's about like finding moments in this calendar. And again, I think it sometimes puts them in opposition. It makes you choose and so something that I really try and help people understand or try to work for is like kind of an integrative approach. Like if I value my personal time, my relaxation time, even my hobbies, how can I find ways to integrate that into my schedule like into the work that I'm doing into my academic processes? For example, studying, like if you're somebody who knows that social gatherings and being with people is something that is going to recharge your batteries and give you a lot of satisfaction. And what you're doing. But you also have to study, you know, here's an opportunity to say, OK, how can I essentially do both? How can I get together with my friends? Am I the kind of person who wants to study in a group? And essentially two birds with one stone, right? If you can effectively get together with your peers and have study sessions or time where you're actually doing academia - obviously have to be responsible at that time.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
But all of a sudden now we're not trying to balance our academic life and our social life but we’re integrating them. And so that's kind of a high level thing to kind of think about a different way to think about balancing.
Katherine Hurtig
I like that idea because I mean, it's not like, yeah, like you said, like we can all, we always have the opportunity to block out certain time or hours to each aspect of our lives. Thinking of it in that way of weaving them together.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, and not, you know it's not. It's not to downplay the specific strategies or little things. So you know, making sure that you give yourself buffer time between activities. If you are running from class to class or you are trying to work or you're trying to do extracurricular activities, are you giving yourself time to transition to go between things? Are you prioritizing your self-care? Year eating, your sleeping, getting enough water, getting exercise, getting sun. Are you taking breaks or are you just going, going, going? So all of these things are not nothing. When we talk about self-care and I think we'll, you know, we'll continue this conversation around self-care too. But like we do have to be able to ask ourselves how do I decide when my self-care is an excuse and I'm just avoiding something? Or when it's, you know, necessary and this going to help me. So kind of making that discrimination in our heads, being able to say how do I decide what is an appropriate use of self-care and time off and breaks and how do I decide when that's actually me like avoiding a deadline.
Katherine Hurtig
Do you have an example of that, of what that might look like? That avoidance?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, like if the reason that… yeah, so if you're looking at your schedule and you're trying to decide, OK, I know I need to look after myself. I know I need to go to the gym, let's say. The gym is part of my experience. I go to the gym – I’m not saying it is. But I’m saying that if you’re somebody who says I need to go to the gym twice a week, I need to regularly get some exercise and you're trying to decide, OK, is this me taking healthy self-care or is this me avoiding a deadline or avoiding something. Being able to ask yourselves like, why am I doing this right now? Is it in my schedule and I can have the time for it in that way? Or am I saying I don't want to do this thing - I see that deadline. I'll do it later. I'd rather go do this as opposed to. Yeah, like kind of saying this is maybe it's set out in my schedule already. Or again, it's something that you're able to say. Yeah, like I'm doing this beca\use it's actually help me do that later or it's going to help me do that thing as opposed to kind of avoiding it.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Yeah, that makes sense.
Joel Zimmerman
And then I think being realistic about yourself, prioritizing whatever it is that you're doing, setting realistic goals for your academic work your time, but also your personal life. And being realistic about that is also about reviewing and adjusting, like looking at what you're doing, you know, taking a semester. And, you know, if you have some things that are working for you, that's great. But not being afraid to and actually taking the responsibility to look at your semester, look at a couple weeks, look at a couple months, and go, OK How did that go? Was I effective? What actually does need to be changed? Does my self-care routine, does how I look after myself… Does how I go shopping for food and cooking for food and buying food. Spending time with friends and my social life. My extracurricular. Is that something that's working for me or is it getting in the way, and not being afraid to adjust. Again, let’s go back to growth mindset - looking at something going that's not working and then being able to say, OK, what can I tweak as opposed to saying no, like this is how I have to do it. I was told to budget time. I was told to…
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Yeah. You don't have to be that ridged in your thinking
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly. And again that comes to, you know, even people who are really good at focusing and bearing down on the academics, they have their study schedule and their work schedule and you know really, really hashed out. But if they aren’t satisfied or it is getting in the way, yeah, not holding onto that so rigidly.
Katherine Hurtig
So speaking of self-care, are there unique self-care practices that you think apply to students?
Joel Zimmerman
And I think that university again and this time again is highly variable because there's lots of different ways that you're going to experience your university career. You know, maybe you're on campus, living out in a city that's not your home city. Maybe you are living off campus in your home city. Maybe you're, you know, so there's lots of different ways that. Look, so it's hard to kind of say a blanket kind of statement around this, but like, but you know, campus life again also depends on the school. But what I think what is unique about this time is that there is a concentration of like-minded people or potentially like staged people. Different universities, different people. But I think one of the kind of… I don't want to call it self-care, but one of the things that students can take advantage of is taking advantage of campus life as best as they can, whether that's, you know, a club or a group, or a facility on campus where people are going to be. Or offer support. Just understanding that like what's unique for university is that you have access to that and other people don't.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
So I think that's like the most specific thing I can say, but you know most campuses have a gym. Most campuses have quiet study space for different types of people. And so again, taking advantage of what you're what resources you have available to you. So that might also just go to again, you know your ability to go and suss out these resources you know, are you able to go and find like what's on there?
Katherine Hurtig
Like you said about clubs, that's another really cool part of it is that you can really find your people. Like I remember club week at UC - University of Calgary. There's, you know, groups for every kind of interest.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. And again, I think that - I don't want to over the overemphasize the importance of social connection. Although it is important. Just know that you know some people also find a lot of comfort or benefit from less social activities, but still engaging.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Me particularly, I am that kind of person who does get a lot from the social activities and that is something that really recharges my batteries, but I think yeah, like, again, I just come back to the idea that, like, this is a time where you have access to peoples and services that not everybody has access to.
Katherine Hurtig
So another thing on self-care that you'd kind of brought up earlier, that's important to emphasize. And yeah, correct me if I'm wrong. It's like, I remember being in university and your time is a little more… You don't have as much of it because there's classes, homework. You might need a job. So you kind of have to be really intentional about self-care. So like you said, even the basics for sure. Finding time to make sure that you're eating and hydrating and at least getting some movement and prioritizing sleep. I think that kind of stuff is important for students.
Joel Zimmerman
When people are giving advice around these things or even like us sitting here having this conversation, it is so easy to kind of get caught up in our own experience because listening to you talk about how maybe you experienced that like I actually found my first couple years of university very freeing. I had a lot of free time…
Katherine Hurtig
Did you?
Joel Zimmerman
I definitely had a job, I definitely had, you know, maybe my course load at times was different. Sometimes it was lighter, sometimes it was heavier and you know you made those tweaks.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure.
Joel Zimmerman
But yeah, I think being intentional and being mindful I think is the main thing. You could squander a lot of time. But people are gonna also be really, really apt to give you advice about how you should be managing that time. Here we are sitting kind of doing that.
Katherine Hurtig
That's the thing around any kind of advice that we're giving on this podcast, it is really individualized and you kind of have to figure out what works for you.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. And again, I would hate to paint a gloom and doom picture to say, like all university students are stressed out. And there's all these stressors, because there are. So I did pull some stats. So in Canada, by 2019, according to the Canadian Association of Colleges and University Student Services, 60% of students reported feeling overwhelm and anxiety and in this in this time. In a lot of ways, knowing that there are so many important things that somebody should be doing like self-care. It's a thing that people are going to say, like, hey, are you looking after yourself, or whatever. But again, the balance of that is that again you can find a lot of satisfaction in university because there are so many great opportunities. So the balance of that, a national survey of student engagement, 82% of Canadian University students rated their overall education experience is excellent or good. That again, this can be a time of engagement, of experiencing this journey of early adulthood or again our academia, as really satisfying. And again, I think it's not necessarily like, what you're doing, more about like how you're doing it, right? It's going to be a journey. What your self-care looks like in your first year of your undergrad is probably going to be very different than your 4th year, fifth year or you know, into your more advanced years of just like you do anything, right. There's that growth mindset again. How you start doing something doesn't necessarily mean how it's going to go, and as long as you kind of have that idea that this is a journey.
Katherine Hurtig
From those stats you are saying, a good chunk of students might find their experience overwhelming, but that's not necessarily a bad thing because it gives you that experience of dealing with those those feelings. Learning from that, learning how to how to cope, how to manage.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. And so this is where I come back to again thinking about the different experiences that people have knowing that at this time of their life, this is the time where we experience, you know where you're going to be challenged and how you experience those challenges…are these opportunities to learn and grow, and did you, did you manage it or were you rescued before you were giving an option to fix it yourself, makes a difference. And so again, I think about families in this time and a lot of, you know, one of the main stressors that university students are under, it's like pressure from their family to be successful or to do whatever they need to do and you need to be able to be challenged. And families, rightfully so, are there to help you learn, but also, they have a responsibility to protect you. And as you grow older, your relationship with your family might change, and your relationship with like what their job is, to protect you, changes. And again the hardships that some students find in universities, the stressors, are natural. They’re of a part of the process.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And families get just as nervous to say my kid is alone, he’s in university, he’s living by himself for the first time. You know, I just want to go and I want to help and I want to do this thing for him. I want to make it and that's great, that connection is so important to get support, but again, as a family like, how do you decide how much struggle is healthy? You know how much challenge is good?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Joel Zimmerman
When is this something that you say? Hey, like, I think you can figure this out on your own, let me help you. Versus let me do it for you and make it easier 'cause you. To focus on something else, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, there's a line. That kind of leads me into this idea of resilience and…
Joel Zimmerman
I knew you were gonna say that word.
Katherine Hurtig
I know, that’s another buzz word hey? What are your thoughts on it?
Joel Zimmerman
Well, I have thoughts on it. It is a buzzword. So resilience is something that is studied and it is measured and it is a both a protective factor and an outcome of challenge and of hardship. However, the misnomer is that it's a given, it’s something that we take for granted it. That is like it's, if you have resilience, it's going to help you with this thing.
Katherine Hurtig
OK.
Joel Zimmerman
Or that if you have challenge, you will become resilient after it. Those I think are misnomers.
Katherine Hurtig
OK.
Joel Zimmerman
That's the cause that sets up the…
Katherine Hurtig
It's not a guarantee?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, it's not a guarantee on both ends. And why I think it's important to say that is because challenge is hard and measures of success are subjective, right? How you handle it and how you get through something, who really decides whether you handled that well other than yourself? And so if again we struggle and we say well I'm not very resilient like I didn't successfully navigate this challenge. Therefore, maybe I'm not resilient or I don't have resilience that's an unfortunate setup and I would hate to put anybody into that place to say like if you know, you have to have resilience, you know you have to have a growth mindset that helps you have resilience and therefore you can handle challenge. I don't think that's a realistic kind of setup and I don't think that's you know how most people really talk about it.
Katherine Hurtig
So again, is it building your own definition of it?
Joel Zimmerman
Well, resilience is a protective factor for hardships, and it is something that, you know, from hardships can be built. So I think again, we started talking about growth mindset and I think again that is that's the place where this discussion can go back to in the sense that like embracing challenges, failures, and view them as opportunities for growth, viewing them as saying, OK, even if this is incredibly challenging and that is so hard to do when. In. Middle of it, and no one wants you know when their world is crumbling and the worst things have happened to you, no one actually wants to be told like this is for the better, right? That's like the worst thing you can say.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course.
Joel Zimmerman
It might be true and you might be able to say it in five years. But again, that growth mindset is what might allow you to step back a little bit and see that path right when we're in hardship, when we're in struggle, it's really hard to get out of the here and now and kind of remember that we have a whole life to live in a sense. Or like there's more here and we get really focused on kind the here and now.
Katherine Hurtig
How do you kind of explain to your clients the idea of the growth mindset, but at the same time validating the hardship validating the challenge?
Joel Zimmerman
That's a great question, because I think people think it comes from sitting down with somebody and getting good advice. About what you should be doing right now, or how to change or what not. But most counsellors, I believe, will agree that somebody who's in the thick of something at some point in time they are going to need to learn how to do something different, but in the meantime they're probably just going to need someone to help them kind of be where they are kind of to validate, to listen and to not necessarily pressure them to do something different or change, because again that sets up the what I'm doing right now isn't enough or not good enough. So you know most, I think most counsellors to some degree when they are working with somebody who is experiencing a traditional hardship or something that's really challenging for them, the first thing they're going to do is not offer them advice. The first thing they're going to do is to sit with them and try to understand what this is like for that person and so. Again, for an individual to even do that for themselves, it's understanding. What does this mean for me right now? What is kind of going on? Am I being, you know, am I being unrealistically rigid? Am I not embracing these challenges or maybe even my imperfections, am I not allowing myself to be imperfect. Perfection kind of comes up here a lot. You know, being grateful for what you have. Not something that somebody wants to hear when they're in the thick of it, nobody wants to hear “well, at least you have a roof over your head.”
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
But at the same time it's true, right? You have to be able to sit down and say, OK, this is hard, this is challenging, I have lost something. But that ability to turn and focus on what we do have, again, these are all internal skills that you know most people can absolutely access or learn to access. And I think in university, absolutely this is a time where you are going to be tested and where you might have that concern that if you don't succeed here, it's going to get worse. And that that comes up in test anxiety. It comes up in in that perfectionism, it comes up in the pressures that families sometimes or individuals put on themselves or families put on an individual. And that's again that is sometimes how that pressure plays from families or for individuals. People will say, well, if I if I don't succeed in university I'm not going to be able to get a job and then I'm not going to be able to make money and then I'm not going to live. And what am I supposed to do?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. What is? That's called like catastrophizing, right? That kind of thinking?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, there's a lot of kind of ways that that could be described. Yeah, catastrophizing, predicting the future, A cause and effect like an unrealistic expectation for cause and effect. Like if I fail this course, I'm never going to get a job.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Yeah. I've totally had that experience in like, I mean, not just university, but other things. It’s like this one thing happened and that means the end of the world, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly. And I hear it again when I work with families, with people in these places - and I say families because very often, I'm not going to blame, I'm not going to shame, but parents will come to me and say, you know, my kid is struggling. They’re in school. I want to help. I know he needs structure. Needs to get out of bed. He needs to stop playing video games. He needs to study more. I need to help him do this And we can experience that again in from, you know, from a very individual perspective. Somebody who is just trying to take an exam and they're starting to say if I don't get a good grade on this exam and then their mind takes off and fills in all the worst possible scenarios. Again, it's just that realistically, kind of slowing ourselves down and saying, OK, you know, maybe this isn't going to go great, you know, can we embrace that failure? Is that really the logical conclusion that I'm gonna end up nowhere because I didn't do well on this one university tester course?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Again, that growth, just like what can I do differently? What I learn from this? Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, absolutely. Those are things that are gonna help calm some of those, those thoughts and challenges.
Katherine Hurtig
You know, you kind of talked about this anxiety that can come up. What are some signs that a student might be struggling more than just with the typical stress? When should they kind of seek out help?
Joel Zimmerman
You might have heard me use this kind of metaphor before, but this idea that some people see these signs, that we're looking at an we panic at them. We think that this is bad and we kind of label it as such, but always honestly like if you kind of think about the metaphor of like if you have a car and you're driving down the highway and something is wrong with your car’s engine and the engine light starts blinking at you, people see that engine light and they think, Oh my God, that's a bad thing. But realistically, if you imagine a scenario where you're driving down the road and something is wrong with your car's engine and the engine light never starts blinking at you, that's a problem in the sense that you don't know that something is wrong.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
And so having a realistic and I want to say a healthy relationship with these warning signs that we might talk about is the first step because when you see some of these things, when you see some of the kind of signs that you're struggling, people are going to do one of two things. They're either going to panic and swerve and cause more problems. Maybe they translate some of their feelings of you know, sadness or hopelessness or worthlessness into not studying, or what's the point? Why bother? And now they're not studying. And now they are coming into an exam, and now they're more stressed. And now they actually get the poor grade and it compounds. As opposed to kind of seeing that, you know, engine light, if you will, seeing that warning sign and saying, OK, I'm feeling a certain way or I'm seeing a certain sign that tells me I might not be functioning very well. What is going on? What is the thing that I need to be doing or that I am doing that I shouldn't be doing or something that I am negating doing that actually needs to be addressed because the other thing that people will do is they'll ignore it and say this is fine. Push it away like that’s not a problem until you know again it compounds and
Katherine Hurtig
Until it gets to be a bigger problem.
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly right. So anybody that kind of asks about those signs that somebody is struggling, I think the first thing to kind of recognize is like signs of struggle inherently are not bad. They are just the messenger. We don't shoot messengers. We kind of embrace them and say, OK, what are you trying to tell me?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
There might be something wrong. There might be something that you're not doing like, like I said that you need to be doing or something that you are doing that you probably shouldn't.
Katherine Hurtig
I've talked to counsellors about signs of anxiety, signs of depression. You know, that can be changes in appetite, sleep.
Joel Zimmerman
Absolutely.
Katherine Hurtig
Lower mood, isolation. Any one of those things on their own isn't like, well, that means I'm depressed.
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
It should be looked at kind of as a whole and over a period of time.
Joel Zimmerman
What I often tell people when I have these discussions with people about being really intimately aware of their engine lights to continue that metaphor to be really intimately aware of the signs that they're struggling exactly like you said, one of them on its own for a duration of time that is short, isn't necessarily an issue. It's being able to assess, OK kind of the duration, the frequency and the intensity, I think is a great way to summarize it. Like how often is this happening? How quickly can I shake it? Or is it sticking around, and how intense is it?
I think you're allowed to have a little bit of, you know, that moment of like I should be doing better. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, that's actually, you know, sometimes lights a fire under your butt to get you going. But if I should be doing better sticks around day and night and it's starting to get in the way of things and you can't shake it and you recognize it and you're trying to get rid of it and doing things and it’s not enough. Now that's starting to be a sign of like, OK. What's really underneath this? What’s going on here?
Katherine Hurtig
Exactly.
Joel Zimmerman
What am I doing that I shouldn't? What am I not doing that I need to be? So yeah, like we can list exactly like the things you're saying, you know. And anywhere from how you're kind of generally feeling, you know, that loss of interest in things that typically you know provided you interest changes in any of your kind of bodily functions whether it's eating, sleeping, your bowel movements. Changes in how you interact in social settings. Are you somebody who's typically quite social and now you're finding yourself withdrawn. Maybe you're somebody who's usually kind of keeping to yourself and all of a sudden you're taking unnecessary social risks or doing something that's putting yourself way out there in an unhealthy way, right? It's not necessarily about the thing. It's sometimes about the change from the norm. That is kind of the biggest. That is an indicator again too.
Katherine Hurtig
I think what you said deserves to be repeated. So it was the duration, frequency and intensity?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, that's. I think those are… that’s exactly what I would say. Is that like when again, any inherent sign of challenge or sign that you're struggling by itself may or may not be… is inherently bad. It’s a messenger that's trying to tell you something, but one of the ways that you can assess from the you know that these are challenging or kind of a sign that something is needs to be addressed is their frequency, duration and intensity. I'll throw in here on this idea again of seeking help and because I think it is important. Stats Canada, 67% of post-secondary students indicate that they were aware of mental health services available on campus. Only 21% of those who felt they needed support actually used support services on campuses. So there is a discrepancy there that I think is important to say that like there are resources and opportunities for people who are struggling and it is hard to get to them. It is hard for those people to get to the services that are necessary and there's a hundred different reasons why that's the case. But I think again, a discussion and an understanding of these things from the individual level or from your social group looking at people and saying, hey, are you doing OK? Is just a number one step to, you know, reducing that number or the gap and knowing that there are services like ourselves and every campus has some sort of mental health service that is accessible. And again, going back to that idea that like you, when you're in a university setting you have access to services.
Katherine Hurtig
Taking advantage of what's there.
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly and not a lot of people do. And whether that's stigma, whether that's I don't have time, you know, but it is important to kind of mention I think.
Katherine Hurtig
Joel, what are some kind of coping mechanisms that you think students can use during particularly stressful times of the year like, you know, exam week or project deadlines, that kind of thing.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, every student is probably gonna hear some version of prioritization. But again, being realistic with your time and getting ahead of things. So I think when you know the university life is really broken down, there are cycles to it. There are exam periods and you do get a syllabus that is going to tell you when the hot button things are. And I think the best thing that anybody can do is get ahead of those things. I'm not saying you have to build a schedule that tells you when you study, but knowing that you have an important deadline at some point in time and making good note of that, I think makes a big difference if you're acting on it, if you're chipping away at something. So obviously not waiting to the last minute to do things obviously is kind of the no brainer.
Katherine Hurtig
I made that mistake so many times the night before a paper is due.
Joel Zimmerman
We all do. And again, here's that exact example is that never goes away. You’re always going to have deadlines. You're always going to have things that are coming down the pipe that you have to do into your adulthood, and so, you know, learning how to chip away at them, right? Understanding, prioritizing with your time, I think what that really means is looking at a task and saying can I do this in one sitting? You know, you probably could if you needed to.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
But is this the kind of thing that even if I pulled an all nighter or worked for 24 hours straight, could I actually do this in one sitting? And if the answer is no, then why are you bothering? Right and being able to say, OK, this is something that is going to take me two or three cracks or multiple little chunks. So being realistic of that is this a that has a finite end? Is this a paper that when it's done, I can walk away from? Or is this something that has not a finite defined ending like studying like at some point in time the test is going to come, but you could keep studying, right? Again, having some realistic measures of, are you going to use time to decide how much you study? Are you going to use content. Are you going to say, OK, I'm going to study this chapter in this chapter in this chapter, or am I going to go by time? OK, I'm going to say for 25 minutes, then take a break, then study for another 25 minutes and then take a break.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
So priority, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
And again, like finding what works for you, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
For you. Exactly, 100 percent. Understanding, learning and memory and how our brains. I mean, I was kind of a poor student in high school. I did not do very well in high school and then I did a degree in psychology again, something that was very interesting to me. And so I started to kind of have a little bit more motivation to do the work.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, me too.
Joel Zimmerman
What I was learning about was how does the brain work and how does studying work and so it was this meta processes of understanding like, you know, the brain does need time to process what you're doing. So if you are studying, taking breaks, sleeping during those breaks, or doing mentally, you know relaxing activities, something that allows your brain to process what you're doing. Sleep is the number one thing.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally.
Joel Zimmerman
So if you can study in chunks and take little naps in between, that is probably one of the best ways that you can just study.
Katherine Hurtig
How can students kind of stay motivated and focused throughout their time, especially if they start to feel burnt out?
Joel Zimmerman
Absolutely. And again, this is kind of one of those, misnomers is that I think it's unrealistic to expect that you will be motivated the entire time. And that you will be gung ho and excited the entire time. The reality of it is that motivation and intention waxes and wanes, and the people who have, I'm going to say a growth mindset or the ones who recognize that you can go with those flows and not be so rigid. In an appropriate way are ones that you're going to be able to have a slightly more successful time in that it's not super pressure you're able to say, OK, I'm not super motivated to do this today and that's OK.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
I still may need to get it done. But the fact that I'm unmotivated to do it doesn't say anything wrong. One of those engine lights. People see I'm not motivated to do this thing and they panic and they say I must be on the wrong course or I must be doing something wrong and then they don't do the thing. Motivation is actually one of those things that people think they need to do the thing, but it's very often the opposite.
Speaker 1
That's what I've heard and I totally agree with that. How it's not the motivation comes and then you know, you feel, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Then you do the thing.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, even when you don't feel like it.
Joel Zimmerman
Especially when you don't feel like it because again, knowing that you're going to feel a different way after you do that. And frankly, how you feel about the thing doesn't actually matter is another way to say it. Like if you're in a course and it's an important course and you have to study for an exam, how you feel about studying for the exam does not actually have anything to do with whether or not you need to study for the exam. You need to study for the exam, or you need to do the paper so you know. Motivation is that thing to say? Do I really need it to do this thing? Or can I do it regardless? Embracing those imperfections, embracing those challenges. All tack on to again understanding that sometimes there is an end goal here, some university courses, or some things that you're going to be doing at this time in your life are very point. There is a point that you're going to get to and in that path is very clear, and that makes that makes doing things a little bit more simple sometimes. Whereas
Katherine Hurtig
You can see the end goal
Joel Zimmerman
That you can see the end goal where sometimes some programs or some things that you're going to be doing have a more diffuse end game. You don't actually know what you're going to do with this, and neither of those is better than the other. But again, it's just understanding that that is something that you might experience. You might be able to say I know exactly where I'm going. And you might be wrong. Or you might not know. Or you might be in a process of like this is a journey. I don't exactly know where it's going to, you know, get me. That's not a problem. This is what I need to be doing right now anyway.
Katherine Hurtig
Any last thoughts Joel? Anything you want to leave our listeners with about about stress and the school experience?
Joel Zimmerman
I'll go back to kind of where this discussion started by saying that, you know, this is a time where people have an opportunity to find a lot of themselves, to find their people, to find a lot of what they know will be successful for them, and how they work and so allowing this to be a time of learning and continuing that mindset that like you, can be a student forever in a lot of ways where you're allowed to learn. Experiment, say I don't know and then go and find the answer so you know the send off that I would give people in this time is saying like this is the time to be a student and you can be a student for as long as you want, and I encourage people to forever be a student, because if you have that mindset of I'm learning, then anything that's in front of you can be seen as an opportunity for you to learn.
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you so much, Joel. This was fascinating. And I think yeah, we're talking about university and college students, but a lot of this stuff can apply to really anyone.
Joel Zimmerman
Absolutely. Yeah. I was super excited to participate in this and I am glad that I got to speak on this.
Katherine Hurtig
Thanks so much.
You've been listening to Living Fully. Thank you for tuning in. This episode was produced by Gus Hunt, Luiza Campos, Jenna Forbes. And by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Joel Zimmerman.
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favorite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory.
Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling for anyone in Alberta with no wait list and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com or counsellingalberta.com for help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the US seek help from your general medical practitioner.