Season 4, Episode 3: How to cope with money stress
If money worries are keeping you up at night, you’re not alone. Counsellors Joel Zimmerman and Long Zhou talk about how financial stress shows up emotionally, physically, and in our relationships—think irritability, isolation, avoidance, and that “I can’t keep up” feeling. They dig into why money triggers a survival response, and share practical shifts that can help better cope.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully. Each episode is a chance to talk about mental health in a way that's simple, honest, and helpful. We'll share stories, tips, and tools to help you feel supported and feel your best. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
Today, we're talking about something that affects so many of us, money stress. And not just the practical side of it, like budgeting or bills, but the emotional side. The shame that can creep in, the way it can impact your sleep, your mood, and even your relationships. I'm joined by counsellors Joel Zimmerman and Long Zhou, and we talk about how to let go of self-blame, identify what's in your control, and take one small, helpful step at a time.
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All right, we are here with Joel Zimmerman, Long Zhou. Thank you guys for talking with me today.
Joel Zimmerman
Happy to be here.
Long Zhou
Yeah, glad to be back again.
Katherine Hurtig
And we're talking about money stress. I don't know many people that this doesn't impact. How about you guys?
Joel Zimmerman
Well, I think the time of year that we're recording this, like kind of fresh off the holiday season is when we're recording this. So I know it's a common issue for, I think, on everyone's mind right now after the holidays. I think it's a really important time to and then the beginning of the new year too.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, for sure.
Long Zhou
Especially this, with the tariffs, right, the increase in living cost.
Katherine Hurtig
Exactly. Yeah, everything seems to be more expensive now. And there's just a lot of feelings around money. You know, it can be tied to your sense of self. There can be shame around it. So yeah, so like I said, financial stress, it affects so many people, but it's not something that is super comfortable to talk about. So why do you guys think that it is such a hard topic for people to get into?
Joel Zimmerman
I think there's a couple different reasons. The things that I kind of think about, I don't know which one I'll kind of jump in on, but I think there is a relationship between money and how people kind of, like you say, kind of feel about their self-worth. Money is linked to things like their level of maybe competence or their efficacy in the world. But at the end of the day, I think it's also something that has to do with how people feel about their safety. Money is really tied to some basic needs. needs in our culture, and it's the reality of it. Money is what puts food on your table and gives you shelter.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure.
Joel Zimmerman
So there is this concern that people have. I think that's one of the things that stands out.
Long Zhou
Also, because there's a social taboo or cultural norm, right? Not to talk about money. I remember why I first came here. I learned quickly not to, you know, talk about politics, religions, and money. And also not to ask women's age. So those are the taboos that learn.
Katherine Hurtig
Yes. That's correct. I'm turning 40 tomorrow, so I'm going to start to not want to talk about my age.
Joel Zimmerman
No shame. No shame.
Long Zhou
And happy birthday.
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you. Yeah, I guess you're right. I mean, those things, they are real. really instilled in us. Like we don't go there. But is that kind of part of the problem? Do you think it would be easier for people to deal with if it was kind of more common to talk about?
Joel Zimmerman
I think there's like a cultural silence or a culture of silence, like not talk about these things. And I think part of that comes from the natural inclination to compare with other people. It's compare. And they say compare and despair. If you're going to compare yourself, it's only natural to do it. But I think the attitude that you have around comparing yourself to others and financially, finances is an easy comparison to fall into. And so I think people avoid that for fear of causing that comparison. It's hard to say I'm doing well or not well and not invite that comparison with other people maybe. And so I think people maybe try to avoid that discomfort, even if it is well-meaning.
Long Zhou
And Joel, earlier you said about the sense of shame and guilt, right? And the shame loses power when we start to share. And really to understand that there's no shame in talking about it. You just need to find the right person, right? Talk to a trusted family member or friends or reach out to a counsellor. And shame is very common. And we also, we don't want to take on the shame that is not yours.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Long Zhou
Right? Maybe because of broader economic situation. Maybe things happen that's outside of your control.
Katherine Hurtig
Exactly.
Long Zhou
Don't blame yourself for something that's not yours to take.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, I think that's a huge element. that we'll probably get into is like how really some of these issues that people have with finances are not, they're not their fault. It is a systemic issue. And so talking about it automatically maybe invites the idea that I've done something wrong. And people avoid talking about that. They avoid that. And maybe even the conflict too. I think the other piece is talking about money, maybe there is that culture of you don't talk about it because it's taboo. And so therefore, if you're stepping into that and talking about it, you're going against some sort of cultural norm. But there's also the avoidance of the conflict, because in general, sometimes we anticipate that talking about these things is hard, maybe because it's taboo or because of past experiences. And so talking about it in general sometimes is a fear of conflict. Like, if I talk about this, it's going to start something. And so we don't we don't we don't go there.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's because that's uncomfortable.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, and it breeds the silence. So I think exactly like you say, talking about it opens up that door and empowers people, I think. And where that starts, I don't know exactly, but as long as it starts.
Katherine Hurtig
So if someone is stressed about money, if their financial situation is keeping them up at night, what's that going to look like in their day-to-day life? What is that, how's that stress going to appear?
Long Zhou
I think that stress can manifest in many ways. Like behaviorally, people may start to isolate themselves, not engage in social activity, and they may avoid looking at their bank account or paying the bills because that is triggering for them, right? That overwhelm them. I guess emotionally, they feel that heightened stress. They may feel that shame and guilt. And physically, people can lose sleep, right? Either sleep too much or too little. They may overeat or undereat. And maybe they'll lose their motivation to do things that they find enjoyable. Another big emotional sign is the feeling depressed, feeling hopeless.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
I think you're really kind of highlighting this idea of like displacement or like spillover, where it's like, really, we're concerned about this financial thing, but it's showing up as anger, sadness, isolation in other areas of our life.
Katherine Hurtig
Right
Joel Zimmerman
So it's usually not, I think about it as like spillover, bleeding into it, bleeds into these other areas. I think you talk about social isolation. One of them, I think one of them that I've seen, I know I've experienced it myself when I was starting to feel a little tight around the waist when it comes to the budget. It's like excuse making or when you talk about social isolation or withdrawing, right? All of a sudden I'm canceling plans or I'm not doing things that I once was or typically we'd eat out or we'd want to order in or something. And all of a sudden I'm like, no, let's not order in today. And my partner was looking at me going like, why are we always ordering on Thursdays? And I was like, no, let's not. And I couldn't really come with a good excuse. I was kind of finding myself to have other excuses as to like why we shouldn't, but really it was like, because I don't think we should be affording it right now. And I couldn't say it.
Katherine Hurtig
And I'm thinking like other feelings that go along with that. Like if there's been times where I'm feeling like the budget is a little tight, there's this, I don't know, like jealousy or just that FOMO, right? The fear of missing out.
Joel Zimmerman
That comparison.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, you see everyone around you buying nice things, eating out all the time. It's like, well, I just want to do that too.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. Can lead to poor choices, right? Doing those things anyway, kind of avoiding, and I think we were starting to kind of talk about not looking at your bank account, avoiding maybe even in the situation that I was talking about, right? Saying, hey, I don't want to eat out because I can't afford it, or I don't think it's financially a good idea. If I avoid that, if I don't kind of own up to it or confront it, I end up not saying that, and then maybe I end up spending the money and going out and doing the thing or ordering in when I actually shouldn't, and then that snowballs into now I'm making choices, and I think we should be talking about kind of the choices that people make in response to this stress. Because, it's like I feel bad about this, maybe I'm avoiding it, I don't wanna feel, so I was not gonna think about it, and then I'm gonna act as if it's not an issue, but then it is an issue, now it's a bigger issue, right?
Long Zhou
And people may overspend as a way of a coping mechanism, right? And speaking of poor choices, they may resort to, substance use or alcohol to help them feel better.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, lots of different coping strategies around this, some better than others. And that's, yeah, I mean, I do want to talk about that, like the choices. that we make, I guess, maybe the ones that we are in control of to either not get into a financial situation or to manage it when we are. But also like a lot of this stuff is out of our control. So it's what choices can we make besides the ones around our money? Does that make sense?
Joel Zimmerman
I think you're asking like, let's just go back, maybe going back a step and ask like, why is it important to consider what's in our control and not in our control when we're in a situation like this?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Like that's, I think that's often a place where therapists and counsellors and people who are, you know, making effective steps in doing, acting appropriately in difficult situations. I think one of the things that we as counsellors sometimes will go to is like, well, what's in your control and not in your control? Because you talked about helplessness or hopelessness in these situations where snowballs start to happen or situations start to get out of hand, whether or not it was a systemic economic downturn or political tariffs or something, or you made a poor business decision, the question of, well, what can I do about this? Or is this in my control? Or I feel like I'm out of control? That's like a place that people go, wouldn't you say?
Long Zhou
So we really need to understand what is in our control. In our control is how can we make amends, create smart goals and to help pay off the bills and debt and reach out for help and practice a self-care. So those things are in our control. And when we do those things, it gives us the kind of reduced sense of helplessness because you start to do something and you see the tangible outcome, right? Your situation is getting a little bit better. and that kind of builds that momentum.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, sorry to cut you off, but I think the two things that I think about in that control is like, so you ask what's within a person's control and what's out of their control. Because people, again, try and control things that aren't in their control and that frustrates them when they can't. Or they give up trying to control something that actually is in their control, and they think it's what's the point when really there is a point you need to be trying. So I think one of the things that we got to focus on is like the choices you make, the behaviors, like the goals you set, the things that you do try and chip away on. The choices you make, the behaviors that you do are in your control. The structural realities of where you live, you know, obviously you can change that, but like the structural realities of what's going on, that might not be in your control. And you have to be able to acknowledge at least at the basis of that. And then also you have to be able to acknowledge your response to a stressor or something happening to you.
Katherine Hurtig
Right, like your mindset around it as well?
Joel Zimmerman
Your mindset, literally the physical actions that you take when you react to this thing, when you see the sticker shock, what you do is in your control. The outcome of that reaction, what that reaction maybe leads to, or how another person reacts when you do make your choice, that's out of your control. The outcome of that response isn't necessarily in your control. That's a hard thing to kind of separate. So you can control what you do, but the outcome of that, so I think it's outcome. Like you don't control your outcome, but you do control how you react.
Long Zhou
I guess to summarize that is, we don't, sometimes we don't have control over the situation, but we have control over how we respond to the situation.
Joel Zimmerman
Beautiful. That's important.
Katherine Hurtig
I had a thought about this and I hope I expressed it right. So the idea of like level of what's in our control, I think when it comes to money, it's, you did touch on this, Joel. But it's different because when I think about anxiety, like I've dealt with anxiety and this idea of what's in my control, it comes up a lot. And there's things where it's like, yes, this is in my control. I can choose to do these things about it. This is out of my control. So I'm just going to like, it's not as simple as just not worry about it, but it is a bit more of like stepping back and letting go. But I feel if it's a financial situation, a financial struggle, things might be out of your control, but it still really affects you and you can't just let it go.
Joel Zimmerman
No. And so I think this goes back to like, why are, why is financial stress so stressful? And I think one of the things that I come back to is again, this idea of safety and the nature of, you know, when you say it's anxiety inducing, so it's, but it's different. I don't think it is. I think we have to acknowledge that it's all of our body's responses to difficult situations, to stressors, if you will, are that biological in deep-rooted safety mechanisms of keeping us alive. Everything is about our survival and our nervous system is built on the notion of survival, of threats to our well-being. Are we going to be able to live? And if not, that is stressful. That's what the nervous system's responding to. And it was built on that. But it was built from a time where the threats to our safety were real threats to our safety right here, right now, immediately. Are we going to die right now? Whereas if you run out of food or don't have shelter, that is a threat to your safety. But it's not as immediate as maybe it was when our nervous system was developed. But because our world is built on if you can't afford food, if you can't afford your bills, if you don't have a job, if you don't have these things where you're safe, it triggers the same fight or flight. It triggers the same, oh my God, I'm worried, I'm threatened that a bear does or like a real threat to our safety. So I'm It's this challenging thing where our nervous system is built on threats to our safety. And when we're financially strapped, our brains somehow still connect that to, I might be in real danger. And you might be, but it's not as immediate. And so that's why I think money is so stressful, because we link it to our survival.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. That reminds me of, like I sat in on some training that you guys did a few years ago with Lynn Lyons. And what was kind of eye-opening about that is just kind of the idea about the content of somebody's anxiety. It doesn't really matter because like we're all going to...
Joel Zimmerman
The content is one thing. The content isn't going to be as... relevant maybe as the purpose or the way that we perceive it. Is that like where you're getting at?
Katherine Hurtig
Kind of, just like anxiety is anxiety, whether it's...
Joel Zimmerman
Right, anxiety has a purpose.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Right, anxiety has a job and that job is to keep us safe. So it's there to warn us to say, hey, that's dangerous or that's a threat to you. So pay attention to it. When that voice inside our head starts a, or we start reacting to it and say, go away. I don't want you to hear me. I got to get rid of this. We're negating a really important inbuilt system that's there to help us be safe. So when we ignore it or we downplay it, we're really doing ourselves a disservice. But when we acknowledge it and say, yeah, you're right, I am worried about my money. If we start thinking, oh my God, I don't have any money, so I'm going to die, right? Like, I don't have any food, I'm going to lose my house, and then something bad's going to happen to me. Like, yeah, that's a concern, but the reality is the content of that is how many bad things have to go wrong before…
Katherine Hurtig
for you to get to that ultimate place?
Joel Zimmerman
I'm saying I'm not saying that it's not a possibility, but like things have to really, really, really go wrong. And now I'm totally aware of the realities that there are people who have had stroke after stroke of bad luck and bad things happen to them that have brought them to the brink of their life is threatened because they're exposed to the elements on the streets. And that is a fight because it just has never gone their way. But when people are sitting at their kitchen table worrying about money, sometimes their head is going, oh my God, and then I'm gonna, something bad is gonna happen.
Long Zhou
Catastrophizing.
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly. Catastrophizing. So the content, that catastrophizing, that's unhelpful. The reality and the process of like, oh wait, I'm worried because things are getting tight here and I can't provide for myself. I can't provide for my family. That's a problem. Nothing wrong with that. That's good. You're supposed to be worried about that. So that's kind of what I, when I hear you talk about that content or that process, right? The content, how we worry about that process, again, coming back to what's in our control, you get to control the thoughts in your head, don't you? So if you're going to go and play what if without ever stopping and going, okay, hold on, this is normal. It's okay that I'm worried about this, but I do need to take some real steps. We have to be able to regulate ourselves long enough to make effective behavior. I don't know what you mean about that.
Long Zhou
What I'm hearing is that anxiety is a signal, right? We want to pay attention to it, and it can help. It can be a motivator, help us to, problem solve, to really assess the situation.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, and again, like that mindset, right? It's kind of approaching it like, okay, this is information. How can I go about solving this?
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So, I mean, we've talked a lot about, you know, what isn't and isn't in our control. Yeah, when it comes to times of financial stress, what typically is within a person's control and what isn't?
Long Zhou
I guess what is, In a person's control is budgeting, planning, and setting goals. That's in their control and also manage their stress, their emotion regulation and the stress management that's in their control. Those are skills, right? You need to learn those skills, but that is definitely in your control, like reach out for help, right? Or do some of your own study or research and learn those skills.
Joel Zimmerman
Well, I think only in general, I think we're again, we're talking about like the choices that you make when you're into these situations. So Yeah, we talk about budgeting, you do get to choose where you're spending your money. That is a choice that you have. Now, it also might feel like it's not a choice if you start saying, well, I don't have control over that. But that's where, again, perspective and asking for help, asking and talking about this and let somebody else help you and have a look at this. And you might be able to see a different perspective. Maybe you have some unnecessary debt or something that you don't think, you know, you think, oh, I have to have this or I need to have this in this way or I need to have this version of this. It's very expensive. But the reality is someone might say, well, you might need to choose to be more restrictive in what you're spending or how you're managing your money. Those are choices that you get to make. Who you talk about it with, how you talk about it, those are choices. So again, the choices that you make are within your control.
Long Zhou
Right, and the way you interpret the situation is also in your control.
Joel Zimmerman
Why is that?
Long Zhou
Because a lot of time it may not be the situation itself, it's how we look at that situation.
Katherine Hurtig
Like that mindset thing again, so I'm thinking when I brought up that idea of missing out or comparison or just that feeling of... of lacking, like if I'm not able to spend this money something.
Joel Zimmerman
Like I'm less than or something.
Katherine Hurtig
Like that. Not as a person, but just like I don't get to do these things kind of.
Joel Zimmerman
But people do link it to as a person. Like that's the problem. That's that interpretation.
Katherine Hurtig
No, for sure. But like what I've tried to do lately is, yeah, again, like shift the mindset. Okay, it's not, oh, I don't get to have this thing. I don't get to do this thing. It's like I'm choosing to save my money at this time and that's going to help. help my future self, or I'm, I get to do this instead. Yeah.
Long Zhou
You prioritize. What is more important, right? The things that are important to you beyond money, right?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Well, and I think that interpretation, right? Like if I am not able to, or I don't go out and spend, let's say, the interpretation of that could be I'm a failure, or I'm not enough. I'm not doing good enough. I'm not doing well enough. I'm not working hard enough. Or it can be, like you're saying, I'm choosing to prioritize something else right now. I'm doing this temporarily. This is not about me as a person. This is a choice I'm making right now. So I think that interpretation is within your control. And I think it's really, really important.
Katherine Hurtig
How can we start shifting focus to, the small controllable choices to kind of help reduce our anxiety around money?
Joel Zimmerman
I think part of the concern or the issue when it comes to financial stress is it feels really big. And therefore people talk about a lot of things about being like overwhelming. Because when you're strapped for cash or you're, you know, the stocks aren't doing well or you're saving a lot of debt, it isn't just one thing. It's lots of things. It impacts lots of different areas of your life from your food, your bills, your housing, again, maybe what's going on in your relationship. So it's lots of different things. So narrowing that focus and being able to either kind of dig down and figure out if there are kind of not root causes, but what one thing can I do that's going to have the biggest impact? Narrowing that focus and choosing to, yeah, I can't do everything. I can't fix everything, but I need to focus on this one thing. That's an improvement and that again builds agency and builds momentum, because if you do that, then you could do another thing. So managing that overwhelm and kind of making smart goals, bringing the focus, narrowing it down to something specific, because if it's really big, it's big.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. And like, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking really focusing one small choice one day at a time. I'm thinking like, if you're in big debt, that number's kind of looming over you, can't pay that all off immediately. So you really have to break it down, like what choice can I make today to lower that? Does that make sense?
Joel Zimmerman
A journey of 1000 steps begins with a single step.
Long Zhou
Focus on that single step, focus on the progress.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, a lot of these things are big and it is overwhelming and that progress does come from focusing on the one step at a time.
Long Zhou
And also to understand what are the essentials, right? Like the food, shelter, that's the, that's ties to the survival. And we want to make sure those are taken care of first. And then your wants, the non-essentials comes next. Things like your...
Joel Zimmerman
I think what you're talking about really speaks to actually what the value of like a therapeutic counsellor can be in this role, because we're not money people, right? We're not. And I often, unfortunately, I have a crass way of speaking sometimes, but the reality is counselling is not really a solution to poverty. right? Like if you're, you don't have a job and your financial situation is dire, coming in and talking about it isn't going to put money on the table or help you necessarily directly. It's going to make the situation easier so that you can move from a place of stability to make those choices. But I think one of the things that counsellors do when people are in that state of overwhelm where it is one thing after another, we help them prioritize. We help them figure out which is the really most important thing you need to figure out right now. I think as counsellors, sometimes we are faced with clients where it is five or six seemingly dire issues. And I know I've been in consultations where we're asking, as counsellors, we're asking for help to saying, which should I help this client focus on first? Which thing? And the answer is, what is the most problematic? What is the most dire? What's the most threatening? Maybe focus on that. Or what's the thing that's going to give us the most and quickest results? And so somebody coming into therapy for specifically counselling issues, we might, you know, figuring out what exactly we're going to do is important because we're not going to be able to give good financial advice. That's I don't think that's our job. But helping people prioritize which issue to focus on, I think is one of the things that we are able to do.
Long Zhou
Definitely, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
So we've touched on this idea of shame around, being in a tough financial situation, how do you guys help people with that? What are things that can help kind of resolve that shame and, what helps someone kind of begin to separate their self-worth from their finances?
Long Zhou
First of all, you know, that the sense of shame is very common.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Long Zhou
And validating that emotion. Also, separate your self-worth from your financial situation. Like you are more than just your bank account. That's very important. And also understand where does the shame come from? Did you really do anything wrong to cause that shame? Like Joel, you mentioned, is a systemic issue that broader economic factors that is outside your control or because you did something?
Joel Zimmerman
Made a choice.
Long Zhou
Yeah, the choice you made or a financial decision that you made that caused this financial difficulty, we just take that accountability. Learn from it.
Katherine Hurtig
And even if that is the case, if you made a poor financial decision, if you got yourself in a lot of debt, you're not a bad person.
Joel Zimmerman
No, and I think, yeah, understanding shame and normalizing it and really, yeah, comes from a place of understanding. And I think one of a thing, a role that counsellors sometimes provide is the ability to explain and understand and educate really what shame is. It is that recognition that something, either we are doing or how we're acting or something that's happening, and it doesn't meet our internal, call it moral compass or a bar that we want to set for ourselves, we're falling short of that. And that creates a sense of, I don't like this. I don't like doing this. I don't like being like this. It's disappointing to ourselves, which in one way is kind of motivating. It's kind of a good thing to say, oh, you know what? I'm not doing as good a job as I can. So from that perspective, shame is... is okay. Because if you didn't feel that way, if you did have a standard that was important to you, and you were knowingly not reaching it or shooting for it, and you were like, yeah, this is fine, like whatever, like that would be a problem. Somebody who comes in and says, I feel bad because I have screwed up, I'm like, good. That's a good thing.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. Yeah, I guess there's the line though, right? Between recognizing, hey, I feel bad about this, and then really internalizing that.
Joel Zimmerman
Beating yourself up then, right? That's where that self-worth comes in. I feel bad about this and I'm such a fill in the blank.
Long Zhou
So that's a healthy shame, right, in a lot of cases. Exactly. It motivates you to change. Unhealthy shame is to internalize that experience, right? You saying like, I'm inadequate, I'm bad. Instead we want to externalize that experience. You know, maybe it's not because you, it's because the situation, right? If it's you, then like we mentioned earlier, take that responsibility and learn from it. We all make mistakes. I guess to to help resolve that sense of shame is to practice really self-compassion.
Joel Zimmerman
And again, so we're talking about like accountability and stuff and owning it, is this like fine balance, right, of, well, it's not me, there's nothing I could have done about it, right? There's that helplessness. But with the healthy version of like, this is what is on me and this is what isn't, and like having a realistic understanding of what is and isn't in your control, I think that comes back to it, because that's going to help us. But it is that shame, right, is sometimes internal. But the reality is when we're talking about, maybe this is a really common issue with couples, right? When they're bringing into couples counselling, money is one of the top, whatever, three, five things that couples sometimes talk about in counselling, but we know is a hot button issue money for a lot of people. It's how your partner reacts to you or you're anticipating they're going to react or and at the end of the day, your partner might be actually reacting totally valid and actually quite kind and compassionate to you. Going back to the idea of interpretation, you might still interpret that as, oh, they think I'm such a whatever. So it's hard because you might, that internalized shame that, you know, right, might get in the way of actually people trying to help you, right? Here's a person who I can talk to and they're not going to judge me, but I'm going to think that they're judging me anyway. That's a problem, right? But understanding, hey, this person is actually treating me with compassion and I can talk about this. Now we're opening up. Unfortunately, sometimes people don't. And that's a reality too, is we have to deal with that. But yeah, I think that kind of plays into that shame and that avoidance of conflict and stuff like that. I don't know.
Katherine Hurtig
You touched on this a little bit, but how can counselling help someone when they're dealing with the stress of finances?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, I think prioritization and helping people determine which things to focus on, that's one thing that I'll say. In general, I think when it comes to any difficult situation, one of the things that we help people do is figure out, again, how they want to react and react in a way that's congruent with what they believe and what they want to do. So, it's learning how to make sure that your reactions are... thought out and guided by intention and your motivations and not out of fear, self-reservation, anger, emotional sadness, right? We want to react from a place that is guided by... clear thinking. And so that's kind of counselling, again, helps us regulate that emotional state, I think.
Long Zhou
And also we help clients to practice really the basic self-care. Even in this situation, you still want to make sure you eat well and you sleep well and also socialize and do some physical activities because those are, again, they're very essential. If we neglect those basics, that are going to further exacerbate your financial situation because they're going to make poor decisions.
Katherine Hurtig
It's amazing how, like, just going back to the basics, can really, I mean, it's not going to fix everything, but it puts you in a really good foundation to start.
Joel Zimmerman
It goes back to that idea of control. What can you control is the routine that you have in a day. And are you following that routine? Just to build on that other things, I think as you were talking, got me thinking about other things counselling will kind of do for us is help like redefine. You talk about self-worth. And when people's self-worth is really tied to things that may not be in their control, that's a kind of recipe for disaster. So being able to redefine, like you said, you're more than your bank account. And that's something that counselling helps people do. And then again, that accountability. I think when people get stuck in places of helplessness and hopelessness, they might look at something and say there's nothing they can do about it when there's plenty. And the harsh reality that I think counsellors sometimes do help people see when someone says, oh, there's nothing that I could do about that. we go, really? You sure about that? And help them develop the perspective to see, well, there are small things you can do. Again, you can't necessarily control the outcome, maybe, but don't give up on this. And there are definitely things that you can do. You're... erroneously thinking that there's nothing you can do.
Katherine Hurtig
I think that's, yeah, that's an important point to make is, I mean, if someone's listening to this and they haven't had the experience of counselling before, they may have like an idea or have seen something in the media. Yeah, it's like this external view of your situation.
Joel Zimmerman
And counselling isn't all going to be someone just like talking about your feelings.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
It's going to be someone who might be able to help provide you a perspective on what you're doing different than you have.
Katherine Hurtig
And yeah, and it's not always going to be exactly what you want to hear, but you might need to hear it.
Joel Zimmerman
Rarely. It's very often uncomfortable.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
And we just bake that into our consent form processes, reminding people that counselling can be very uncomfortable. We might show you something that might be counter to what you, know, Yeah, how you feel?
Katherine Hurtig
We've talked about how, money pressure and stress, it is going to touch on a lot of other aspects of our lives and that can definitely include our relationships. Have you guys worked with couples who have that as one of the issues that they're coming to you for? Like how do you get them to, or what skills do you get them to work on to better communicate about this kind of thing?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, you brought up Lynn Lyons and the content. And I think that nine times out of 10, having the discussions is one thing. What you're going to talk about is one thing. How you're going to talk about it with each other is the other. So very often when I'm working with couples, regardless of what we're talking about, but very often when it is money, it's very often less about what they're saying and more about how they're saying it and how they're reacting to each other. So, you know, and things like compassion, understanding, perspective, curiosity. Someone says, we can't afford that. Is the interpretation of that is like, why I'm not worth it? I'm not good enough for you to buy that for me? Or is it like, I wonder why they're saying that? I wonder what's going on that they're having that reaction. Can we be curious with each other? That's like my number one kind of go-to.
Long Zhou
Yeah, definitely that sense of curious, right? And not making assumptions. Ask for clarifications. That is so important. And I like how you said it's the way that we brought up the conversation. Have a gentle start.
Joel Zimmerman
What does that mean, gentle start?
Long Zhou
Gentle start would be using I statement. I feel, express our feelings. I feel overwhelmed. I feel stressed. I feel anxious about our financial situation. It's not that I don't care about you. I know you had this Christmas wish for gift, but it's not that I don't care, it's that we can't afford. To show that vulnerability, that's a gentle start.
Joel Zimmerman
When safe and appropriate, yeah, I think that. again, how we bring up these conversations, right? If we have to talk about money, it's going to be uncomfortable. That's fine. Wouldn't you rather do that from a place of calm, relaxed, caring, you know, don't bring it up in the car ride after the difficult family situation, you know, when no one's really paying attention, everyone's half asleep, and Right? Are we gently bringing something up instead of jumping headfirst into the pool? Are we slowly easing into a conversation with compassion and kindness?
Long Zhou
Right, You definitely, the timing is important. You want to make sure both are in a calm, in a good mood to talk about it.
Joel Zimmerman
And going back to control, right? You do get to choose that. You don't have to bring it up right there in the moment. You can, you know, people talk about striking while the iron's hot. I like to strike while the iron's cold. Right? Like, and I think it's really common for people to say you don't go to bed angry. You don't, you know, you deal with things right when they're happening. And yes, sometimes those things are valid, but I think it's also important to regulate how you're feeling because these are hard conversations and they're not going to get easier in the moment. They're going to be harder. So wouldn't you rather have a difficult conversation with a full stomach and warmth in your heart as opposed to being angry?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, oh, definitely. It affects how you react for sure.
Joel Zimmerman
There is a topic we haven't talked about that has to do with some of this, which is like uncertainty. I think finances and financial pieces very often come with the word uncertainty attached to them and anxiety and stress and how we think about the future and what, again, counsellors sometimes often do is help people deal with uncertainty. And finances, whether they're your own personal choices, your business dealings, the economic and systemic factors, there's a lot of uncertainty.
Katherine Hurtig
A lot, totally.
Joel Zimmerman
And yeah, that's hard for people.
Long Zhou
For sure. That's where anxiety usually resulting from is that a sense of uncertainty, and one of the things we'll do in counselling is to learn to sit with uncertainty, to accept.
Katherine Hurtig
Which is not easy.
Long Zhou
Because human, we crave that predictability.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course.
Long Zhou
Right? That certainty. It is unnatural, but with practice, right, with the right skills, it can be there.
Katherine Hurtig
So what can that look like, that practice or that skill building? How do you work with people to tolerate uncertainty better?
Joel Zimmerman
Tolerating uncertainty is the recognition that nobody has a crystal ball. And I think people who are stuck in a place of uncertainty and there's a lot of discomfort around that. They're looking for the certainty and they're trying to find solutions and do things that will give them a false sense of security and a false sense of if I just do this, then I'll know. But the reality is they won't. You're still going to be not, you still don't know. So I think the clever kind of frame that I've heard is kind of, yeah, fear of the unknown. We don't know what's going to happen. And so there's that concern and we all have that because no one has a crystal ball. We can predict. But worry, anxiety says, I don't know what's going to happen, and I'm not going to be able to handle it. Healthy worry is, I don't know what's going to happen, and I'll probably figure it out. Or I have the skills to deal with it when it comes. I don't know what that's going to be like, but I'll probably be. be able to manage it with the resources that I have.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Sounded like you took a thought of mine from a few years ago right out of my head. Like that's totally how I thought.
Joel Zimmerman
I didn't come up with that. I couldn't tell you exactly where I picked that one up from, but that's not mine. But yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
But yeah, that's something I struggled with a lot. That idea like, I don't know what's going to happen and I won't be able to handle it.
Long Zhou
Yeah. With anxiety, you know, we often underestimate our own ability to cope.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. What is it? Underestimate our ability and overestimate…
Long Zhou
The danger?
Katherine Hurtig
The danger, yeah.
Long Zhou
Or the possibility of that situation occurring.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Another way of saying that is, yeah, we overestimate in anxiety or worry, we overestimate our... our own failings or like what the flaws or the potential things that could go wrong. And we underestimate the actual external things that could impact us, like luck and the fact that there are things outside of our control. We kind of forget that you could do everything right and still not get the job or still not have that financial windfall. You could do everything right and people will then come back to the distress that comes around anxiety, which is again, It's not only I don't know what's going to happen and I'm not going to be able to handle it, but there's something wrong with me because of it, or I'm bad or I'm failing because I'm not going to handle it. And that's that like added level of like critic that comes into that really gets in the way and that I think, yeah, counselling helps.
Katherine Hurtig
So last thing for, you know, a question for both of you. If someone's listening right now who feels really weighed down by money worries, what's one thing that you want them to know, one thing you want them to take away from this?
Long Zhou
This is a very common experience a lot of people experience financial stress, and you may feel the sense of shame and guilt and anxiety or depression. Again, those emotions are very... very normal, natural response to a financial loss. Talk, reach out to people, practice the basics, and engaging in problem solving, creating a plan, and every small step counts. And really focus on that progress and knowing that this is a temporary situation, and it's not a reflection of your character, your self-worth. And help is available. Like at our centre, Calgary Counselling Centre, we provide this sliding scale, So, we really try to make counselling affordable and sustainable for clients.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure.
Long Zhou
Right? Reach out to help as a sign of a strength, not a weakness.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, my messages would be some version of, like, You're not broken, your nervous system is responding to... challenge and it's normal, and your nervous system is doing what it needs to be doing in response to that pressure. You can manage that nervous system first and then you can plan. But at the end of the day, you don't have to solve everything all at once. You just have to take the next step.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's just the next best step. Thank you both.
Joel Zimmerman
Great, thank you.
Long Zhou
Thank you.
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in. This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, Manuel Montano, Jenna Forbes, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Joel Zimmerman and Long Zhou.
Tune in to our next episode on February 24th. We'll be talking to counsellor Lisa McIsaac about how perfectionism and productivity can impact mental health.
Lisa McIsaac
I think it's helpful to unpack where we learn those value systems to begin with.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Lisa McIsaac
Sometimes children learn that because their parents are high performing and have tendencies toward perfectionism. So they may have learned in their childhood that productivity was, you know, equaled praise. So unpacking some of that and recognizing, well, what was missing? right? What didn't you get? Or what do you wish that you had more of?
Katherine Hurtig
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favorite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory.
Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling to anyone in Alberta with no waitlist and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com and counsellingalberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 2-1-1. If you are outside of Canada and the U.S., seek help from your general medical practitioner.