Season 4, Episode 2: When strength feels impossible — learning what resilience really looks like
Good mental health isn’t the absence of pain. It’s how we respond to it.
In this episode we’re joined by Claire Masikewich, who shares her experience navigating her daughter Sloan’s cancer diagnosis, treatment, and relapse — and how her family continues to cope through uncertainty, grief, and fear.
Claire speaks candidly about the early shock of diagnosis, the ongoing emotional toll, and the practical routines that help her get through the hardest days — from movement and gratitude to asking for help and leaning on community.
Counsellor Ashley Enzie from Calgary Counselling Centre adds clinical insight throughout the conversation, helping listeners understand:
why grief isn’t limited to death
how resilience is built
why compassion and community matter so much during prolonged stress
how to hold pain without minimizing it or forcing positivity
-
Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully. Each episode is a chance to talk about mental health in a way that's simple, honest, and helpful. We'll share stories, tips, and tools to help you feel supported and feel your best. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
At some point, we're all going to face something hard. And while we don't get to choose when or why, we do get to choose how we show up. In this episode, Claire Masikewich shares her experience navigating her daughter's cancer diagnosis and the routines, perspective shifts, and self-care practices that have helped her and her family along the way. We're also joined by Calgary Counselling Centre counsellor Ashley Enzie, who helps us understand how community, compassion, and taking care of ourselves can make it possible to cope, even when life feels overwhelming.
…
Very exciting episode today. I have a good friend of mine, Claire Masikewich, and one of our amazing counsellors, Ashley Enzie. Thanks for being here today.
Claire
Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, thanks for having me, Katherine. It's great to meet you, Claire. I heard about you during my last podcast episode.
Claire
All right. Well, I feel like there's pressure now. So…
Katherine Hurtig
Not at all. Okay, Claire, tell us a bit about your story.
Claire
Where do I begin? Well, I guess the kind of reason we're here today is to talk about my story with my daughter. So in May 2023, my daughter was diagnosed with stage four neuroblastoma, which is an aggressive form of pediatric cancer. And I think the question I get asked the most is, did you know what were the signs, symptoms? And honestly, there wasn't really a whole lot, which is what I think the scary part was. But it really started May long weekend, 2023. I won't get into it too much, but my daughter was really, really tired and she was five and a half years old and she was actually napping that weekend, which is unheard of for anyone who has a five and a half year old. And she was complaining a lot of groin pains, like in her pelvic region, which I just chalked out to be growing pains because my oldest daughter experienced the same thing at that age. But then on the Monday of the long weekend, she spiked a fever and that fever lasted all week. And the leg pain got considerably worse to the point where she was actually pulling herself up the stairs using the banister. So we ended up going to the children's hospital. They ran some blood work. And unfortunately, after a series of ultrasounds, MRI, biopsy, CT scan, she was diagnosed with stage four neuroblastoma. So it's been a wild ride. We had about an 18 month treatment protocol that took us to September, 2024. She was out of treatment for six months. And then unfortunately we found out she relapsed this last April. So we've been back in it ever since.
Katherine Hurtig
And what were those, what were those first days or weeks like that? I mean, that, that news, that's gotta be the worst thing that a parent can hear.
Claire
Yeah, absolutely. Hearing the word cancer beside any, um, beside your child's name is the worst thing a parent can hear for sure. Or one of the worst things along with any other medical diagnosis. But I remember, um, first of all, those first few days felt like weeks and the first couple of weeks felt like months. It all just felt very long, dragged on. And the best way I can describe it is that I felt like I had out-of-body experiences. Like that's what it felt like. And so many times I caught myself thinking, how is this real? How is this real life? The one moment I remember the most was the first night that I went to the hospital. I stayed overnight with her. And then we were admitted into the hospital the next day. So my husband stayed that second night with her. And that morning, the next morning, I woke up at home and I was sure it was a nightmare. Like I was like, oh, that was such a terrible nightmare. And then to look over and my husband wasn't beside me. And that's when I knew it was real.
Katherine Hurtig
And Ashley, in your work with clients who are experiencing a struggle like that, you know, what emotions, thoughts would typically show up?
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, I think what Claire just described is pretty consistent with what a lot of people go through. Initially, I think there's that real shock and disbelief that this can't be happening, feeling kind of in a fog or feeling numb. And then, of course, there's the fears about the future, the child's health and the implication of treatment and treatment options, anxiety that comes alongside that too. And then I think in terms of, you know, the individual parent going through all this stuff, we start to see kind of physical manifestations of their distress too. So maybe difficulty sleeping, trouble concentrating, emotional reactivity, changes to appetite, lots of different physical signs and symptoms for what the adult is going through. And I think another one that I've heard before is some guilt and blame. Did they do something wrong to contribute to this? Did they miss a sign or symptom? Could this have been prevented earlier if they had seen or noticed something? Those things aren't true. But, you know, as a parent that loves their child and has this role of like protector and guardian of their child, to have something like this happen that's so significant, I think it can introduce a lot of doubt and guilt for a parent sometimes too. And then I think, of course, there's feelings of like helplessness, loss of control, anger, frustration, probably even feelings of unfairness of why my child. And then I think also with this, there's some grief related to, you know, the childhood we've envisioned for our child, our family structure. What does this mean in terms of hope in the future? How might the future be different now? So there's really kind of like a whole like emotion salad going on at the beginning and ongoingly too as the experience kind of unfolds.
Katherine Hurtig
Claire, does that, is what she's saying? Does that?...
Claire
Yeah, I was going to, there are so many times I'm going to be like, yes, yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, first of all, let's talk about the physical symptoms that come up with parents. And let me tell you, Kathy knows this, that I experience insomnia all the time now. Like it's like clockwork. And I'm sure that's just, you know, my mind racing and all the thoughts and the things and I can't, my mind can't settle. So definitely insomnia is a big thing for me. I'm tired because of that. And then the guilt, like going back to the guilt, there are moments that I look back on. And still to this day, I think that I've worked through them pretty well. But a couple points. I remember that whole week where Sloane was dealing with this fever and this leg pain. I just kept thinking it was the flu. I was like, it's the flu. It's the flu. My mom, as concerned as she is, she felt like maybe there was something else. And I still, I don't know if it's denial or a bit of a protective measure. I was just like, nope, it's definitely the flu. And it wasn't until my mom and my husband were like, maybe you should call, we should call 811 and let's call HealthLink. And that's how we kind of came to the conclusion we should go in.
Katherine Hurtig
I think that's so normal, though. Like, we just want to chalk it up to something….
Claire
That it's not.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, something average, something typical. Because, well, there's no, you know, at the time I felt like, well, there was no major red flags. And, you know, looking back maybe. But and even there was one part when Sloane and I were on our way to the hospital. And this always sticks out in my mind. And Sloane was singing away in the backseat to whatever song was on the radio. And I remember exactly where I was and I turned the radio down and I said, Sloane, are your legs actually hurting? Because I do not want to go sit in the waiting room for four hours for no reason. And she was like, no, they still hurt. But in that moment, like I always think to myself, can you imagine if I had turned around? Can you imagine if I had said to myself, this is a waste of time and not gone? But there's a lot of, you know, what ifs and looking back doesn't help any of us.
Ashley Enzie
And I think too, like when you have children, they get sick so often, right? And you can't be like overly reactionary to every single little thing. Like sometimes they get a flu and you have to let it run its course. Right. And then I think there's also this piece of like you as a person going through this for the first time and probably not having a template for well, how does cancer just show up? Right.
Claire
Totally.
Ashley Enzie
Like what does that look like? And as you describe like your daughter's experience, I'm like, oh, would I know intuitively like what that just was and be able to respond right away? No. And I don't think most people would until you go through it. Right.
Claire
No, it's true.
Katherine Hurtig
Well, and I think about what, you know, my conversations with you counsellors about signs of mental health distress. One thing, like one symptom isn't like, yeah, you have depression. It's, you know, a culmination. It's what Joel says, intensity, frequency, and duration. So, I mean, looking at any of these symptoms on their own wouldn't always throw up a red flag.
Ashley Enzie
And could mean anything. We don't know until we know, right? The only thing that tells us is the blood test. Yes, it's true.
Claire
And even then, that wasn't conclusive. And there were other things that had to be done. So, yeah, it's true. You have to look at the whole picture. And you can't get caught up on one thing. And we know that often that comes with anxiety. And you get hyper-focused. And I think I didn't want to go down that path. And, you know, I've struggled with my fair share of anxiety and depression in the past. And I think that I've learned to kind of come out of that. So that's also probably a bit of a defense mechanism on my part is I don't let my mind spiral and go down that path.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course. Yeah. Yeah. So Claire, Ashley had talked about kind of what you thought your child's childhood would look like. Like in the work that you've done with your own counsellor and like throughout this whole process, does grief come up? And what does that look like?
Claire
Yeah, oh, for sure. It does. And it's funny. Early on, I connected a lot with, you know, if you're on social media, you see all these things come through and a lot of stuff about grief. And I felt very connected to those posts that other oncology moms were posting about grief. And then I took a step back and I felt really guilty that I'm like, well, no, I shouldn't be grieving because my child's still here and that's not right. And they're going through something different. But then I realized that grief can come in all forms. Right. And grief doesn't just mean death. And for us, a lot of grief is, yeah, the loss of what the future could look like for Sloane. And, you know, we hope that that's still there and we hope that's a possibility. But unfortunately, after relapse, the chance of survival drops below 10 percent. So, you know, that's a reality for us. And then the other thing that I've learned that I grieve quite a bit, actually, when Sloane, when we first found out she relapsed in April, obviously we were shocked because we felt like she was doing so well. So it was a huge shock to hear that she had relapsed. But I actually was grieving the fact that we had a sense of normal for six months. And that was quickly taken away from me. I had some exciting things in my future with my career, and I felt like that momentum was just stripped out from underneath me. So grief can come on all forms, and grief doesn't just mean death. And I think that we often associate grief with death or loss, but loss doesn't have to be life. It could be what life was supposed to look like or the sense of normal, and that's what I was grieving. And I still go in and out of that quite a bit.
Ashley Enzie
And I think that that's very aligned with how I would look at grieving. So I think there's like the loss of normalcy and predictability. There's this loss of who their child like maybe used to be. We've already talked about fears of the future and that sort of thing. And then I think at like the individual level, there's also maybe like the loss of control that we have to grieve, the loss of autonomy, the way that it maybe impacts your own health or work or relationships. And so all of those things, I think, become really important when we're talking about grief in a counselling or clinical setting. And then I think part of my role too becomes how do we kind of help that person to see what they're going through, to validate it, to kind of become that companion for them like in their journey. And also this really important part, I think, of compartmentalizing some of their experiences and some of the different ways in which they are grieving. Because I think the intensity of some of the stuff we're talking about, it can kind of drown a person if you stay there all the time. And so this piece of figuring out how do we hold this in a way that still allows you to come up for air sometimes.
Claire
Yeah, definitely. I do, if I can speak to that just really quick around, like you talked about, you know, holding on to that grief and living in this like sadness. And the one thing that I feel like has really helped me over the last, well, two, almost three years now is let go of what you can't control and control what you can. And I know it's easier said than done. And it's not easy to be grateful when things are hard. It's not easy to choose to show up. And it's not easy to, you know, be mindful of perspective and all of that kind of stuff. But what's even harder is living a life of sadness and living a life of why me or thinking about the worst case scenario. That is harder.
Katherine Hurtig
That makes me think of something that as your friend and someone who follows you on social media, I've seen your experience through this. And what has really popped out is, and it might not, maybe it doesn't feel this way to you, but I think you're a really good example of what it means to have good mental health. Because, I mean, we kind of think like, oh, if I have good mental health, like I'm happy all the time, nothing bothers me. But that's so not the case. Because life happens. We experience hard things. And what I've seen through you is the range of emotion you can go through. And like when hard things happen, you know what coping tools help you and where you need to focus your energy.
Claire
Oh, definitely. I call it a resiliency routine. So I feel like if we are set up for success, like it's hard to be grateful when things are hard. It's hard to focus on self-care when things are hard. Like those are all hard things to do. But if you have that routine and you have those habits in place, it's easier to kind of get back into them. And I hate using the term bounce back when we refer to resiliency because I think it's more about growing forward. But in this case, it really is about bouncing back. Like you can get back into the routine if you have those things set up advance. So that's why it is really important to focus on mental health, self-care, because then when life throws a curveball your way, Jay's reference there, you're prepared. So, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Well, and we talk about, like, there are these phrases and, like, little terms that are thrown around to try to simplify something that's actually really complex. Like you said about focusing on what you can control and letting go what you can't. Like it's a nice little catchphrase, but it actually is, like you said, it's easier said than done and it's a skill you build. It's not just a choice you make. And Ashley, like back me up on this if that's right. Like it's something you have to do over and over. It's not going to be comfortable or come naturally right away.
Ashley Enzie
And we're talking about resiliency, right? And so this idea I think exists out there that people are either resilient or not, right? But it is something that you grow into, right? And unfortunately, this piece of the way that we grow into it and through it is by having hard things happen, right? And it's like this piece of that I can witness myself going through something really difficult and how I kind of meet that challenge and say, oh, like, gosh, like I wouldn't have chosen that. That sure was hard, but I like how I handled it. And it becomes this piece that builds our self-esteem, that builds our competence, that builds that kind of inner trust within ourselves, that we can go through hard moments and that we will take care of ourselves. And we don't know the answers, but we will figure it out or we'll figure out how to get through it as best we can. And so, yeah, we do. We do develop it over time, but only through like the hardship and the suffering.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, unfortunately.
Claire
There's a I remember hearing on a podcast years ago, like before Sloane was diagnosed and I can't remember which one it was. So I hate that I can't give credit to the person who said it, but there was a quote that has stuck with me and it's, you don't know how capable you are until you're asked to be capable. And if you had asked me in my early twenties, when I struggled with anxiety about going to work, if I would be able to handle this diagnosis, I would have laughed in your face and I'd been like, nope, I would curl up in a ball and I wouldn’t come out of my room and there's no way I could handle that. And then it's amazing how, yeah, when you're faced with tough things, like you step up. And the one thing I don't love that a lot of people say when they're going through hard times is, and like asked how they're handling it is, I had no choice because you do have a choice. You do, sure, you have to fulfill your basic needs and you eat and you sleep and you know, whatever it is, if you have kids, you have to take care of your kids, but you do have a choice on how you show up and that choice and how you show up changes day to day. Your ability to cope changes day to day, month to month, season to season. And you have to give yourself grace. Like, even though I feel like I have handled this pretty well over the last couple of years, I have had some really hard days and some low days and that's okay. And I don't beat myself up for it because I know that because I have the habits built in around resiliency routines and gratitude and practicing all of these things before life got hard, I know I'll be okay.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. And I think that also becomes a really important part of the conversation too, of allowing there to be hard days because also like you have children around you, right? And so to be able to role model to them that like feelings in this process are normal and like being resilient doesn't mean just being strong and shoving it all down. It means that we can be honest with each other in what's here and we can talk about it and we can support each other and be compassionate. And that's like, like part of being human and like a bonding and binding factor too in relationships. So there's nothing wrong with allowing yourself, I think, to be human in deeply human, painful moments.
Claire
Yeah. I think that being vulnerable is what connects us. Like we've all been through hard things, whether it's relationships, finance, work, and that's what connects us. And speaking to the kids and the role model or what I set for the kids in my life and my girls is that we feel the feelings and there's nothing wrong with that. And I have cried plenty of times in front of the girls in a healthy way. But they know that it's okay to express those feelings and those emotions. And then it gives them the safe space to do it in return.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, and you're teaching them empathy too by doing that.
Katherine Hurtig
Oh, man. And let me tell you, Sloane, now she's just turned eight. And Kathy knows this. She is the sweetest. She's always been an old soul. But her level of empathy, with what she's been handed and this terrible situation, she is the most empathetic, kind and understanding child. And I think that it's things like this that we can all learn a lot from kids that are going through stuff like this.
Katherine Hurtig
So Ashley, what Claire's going through, it's not just happening to her. It's happening to her whole family. How do you help parents kind of navigate a situation like this? Kind of the immediate crisis feeling, the ongoing grief, that kind of thing.
Ashley Enzie
I think lots of things that we talked about before in terms of like the different ways it can show up. But I think also there's this piece of acknowledging that now an experience has been handed to us as a family that we don't have a template for and we don't know what to do. Right. And so I think that there's this piece of maybe maybe I'm going to say humility or humbleness a little bit that comes with it of being able to say, nope, like I don't know. And this is the moment that I have to be able to call on friends or family or community for support. I think that this is also an interesting space where we have a lot of narratives around like what it means to be a mom and being self-sacrificing and always putting others before you and that sort of thing. And now all of a sudden, there's probably much more on your plate than you have capacity for. So being able to have conversations around what are the barriers to you being able to ask for help? What are the barriers to you being able to, you know, leave your child for the two hours and go take care of yourself in ways that give you kind of some mental, emotional, cognitive space a little bit so you can kind of keep showing up for them? And so I think especially when a situation like this is ongoing, this idea of capacity becomes really important and also community becomes really important because you just can't do it all yourself probably. And if you do do it all yourself, you're probably risking some burnout. And it's much easier for us to support kind of proactive self-care than burnout recovery. And so kind of the thing that I always say to clients is you are the vessel from which everything you do flows from. And so if you're not okay first, nothing else is. And that kind of sounds like a platitude. But if we kind of play that out long enough without you being self-caring or getting the help you need, like where's that going to go? And people normally have pretty predictable answers to that. And so the earlier in a journey like this that I can get somebody onboarded to really taking care of themselves, really building social support networks, really utilizing resources, I think the better outcomes are. And that's going to be a lot of the early focus of how do we help you endure something and have endurance for something that might be very ongoing.
Katherine Hurtig
And those are two things that I definitely wanted Claire's perspective on. I know that self-care has been a huge priority for you. And I see like that you take the time to take care of yourself. Yeah.
Claire
Yeah, that's, you're absolutely right. And again, talking about building these things into our daily routine before things get hard and making a habit of these things before things get hard is the key to surviving tough times. And the self-care and that resiliency routine has been big for me. And I fell in love with running in 2018. So now I was like, how many years is that? Seven years. And having that as kind of my go-to, and that has been my mental health release piece. It's very therapeutic. Has helped me survive the last couple of years. When we're in the hospital, like we're in the hospital for kind of week-long stays. A couple of times, one was in for high-dose chemo. One was six weeks. One was four weeks. She was stuck in a small room. We could kind of come and go, but it was limited and it was very touch and go. High-does chemo was a very scary time. But I would still have my mom, my mother-in-law, my best friend, my husband, my sister would all come and spell me off so I could do a run from the children's hospital to the foothills and around University District. And I found a five-kilometer route that I would run even when things were hard.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I think that's really interesting and important to hear that you make time to do that. I have conversations here a lot with other counsellors and with former clients of ours that talk about that feeling of not wanting to burden other people and that resistance to ask for help. And I know that that's common. And I think that comes naturally is not wanting to put our problems on other people. So yeah, it shows that you have that ability to ask for help when you need it.
Claire
I think that has come over time too. Like I think that that comfort level comes over time. And you know, we all, the saying is it takes a village to raise a child. Well, then it takes an army to get a child through cancer treatment. But it didn't, that wasn't instantly, like it was an instant for me. Like it took time to feel comfortable with that. And then I started to realize that people want to help. Like nine times out of 10, if someone says, how can I help? They mean it. And for that one person who doesn't, well, then they probably shouldn't be in your inner circle. But people want to help. And it's their way of showing up for you, right? And during tough times, people don't know how to help. So if you can ask for help, it's not waving a white flag. It's just being human. And that's okay. And it does. It takes a village. Actually, one of the very first, and I call them red flag questions that the hematologist asked my husband and I when we were first admitted to the hospital, he asked three questions. One was, what do you do for work? Do you have good benefits? And the last one was, do you have family or friends close by? So those were the three questions that we were asked when he knew, we didn't know at that point, but he knew which way this was going and what was happening. And so that's a huge piece. And, and finding that support network and, you know, and, and not everybody, if you're going through a tough time, you might not have friends and family close by, but that looks like finding a psychologist. or a clinical counsellor, like those people can be your people in your community. And at least having somebody to lean on when times are tough, that could be your medical team. It comes in so many different forms.
Katherine Hurtig
I want to get into community a lot in a bit, but I just, before I lose the thought, Ashley, Claire had, she's had a lot of insights over her experience. And she was talking about mindset, about choosing how she shows up. What do you think helps people kind of reframe their experience, their difficult experience, without minimizing the pain of it?
Ashley Enzie
So I think, firstly, we don't have to turn our hardships into sunshine all the time. And, you know, just because we can learn or grow through hardships doesn't mean we would ever willingly kind of choose it as a particular teacher. but often in life this is kind of how we get our teachers. We don't get to choose them. So I think this question of like how can we be present with it, and I think it kind of often calls us to look at the larger context of pain and to be willing to see both difficulty and possibility in it. Like we could say, you know, something difficult happens and this has really sort of like anchored me to my values and that's really wonderful and maybe, you know, informs the way that we live life more richly. But like we were saying, like also we wouldn't choose this. So I think it kind of calls us into this space of practicing some real psychological flexibility and also a lot of compassion that maybe in my best moments, I can see the learnings and gifts that are present here. But then also maybe the next day I don't. And it just feels like suffering. And it's just that. And so I think it brings us to this other piece where we need to be willing to be compassionate with ourselves and respectful and responsive to our evolving experience of whatever is going on. and this piece of, you know, how can we take a stance of patience and gentleness with ourself to kind of be in this non-judgmentally as it does evolve. And I really just think, you know, as we go through the process, we can be present with what's there as it's there. So sometimes it might just be pain and suffering and we can be in that with ourselves. We can feel that deeply and also trust that maybe around the corner is the next moment of, man, that little girl is brave and positive, man, I'm lucky to get to spend this extra time with her, whatever it is. And so I think it just, if we can curiously be with our experience, then there's room for all of it, I think in a meaningful way.
Katherine Hurtig
And it's not exactly the same as this experience, but in my own mental health stuff, I used to think I'd go through counselling, I'd gain these tools, but then I would get really hard on myself if I had a bad day, if I didn't handle something the way I wanted to. And I think that, oh, this was a one step forward, two step back situation, but that's, I've come to realize that that's not the case, that you can still have all the tools and the knowledge, but there's, you're going to have hard days. Yeah.
Ashley Enzie
You're just a person. We're just going through it for the first time. Right. I heard someone say to me one time, like the human part is like working so hard, right? It keeps trying to be perfect, right? but you're not going to be perfect because you've never been through this. So just I think if anybody's going through something like this, if they can read a really good book or work with a therapist around how do I be compassionate towards myself and witness myself and my experience, I think that'll really help because it's just going to come up and you're not going to like how it comes up sometimes. And I think it also brings us to this other piece around our socialization where bad feelings, bad days, like they're bad and we have to get rid of them and we have to feel better. Sometimes you just feel bad. It's okay.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Ashley Enzie
You're going to keep breathing and time's going to keep passing and the next feeling will bubble up. That's okay.
Claire
It's okay to sit in the suck.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah.
Claire
Sometimes things suck.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. I say the mud, the suck, the mud, it's there. Yeah.
Claire
When my girls were first, so I have two daughters, when my oldest, Indy, who's now 10, was first born, I feel like it was a bit of an unpopular opinion, but I never thought about putting my kids first. This was the order. I put myself first.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah.
Claire
I put my relationship with my husband.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah.
Claire
And then the girls third. And not to say I didn't take care of them, obviously. I loved on them and I took care of them and all of that. But I felt like if I was happy with myself and I took care of myself, I was a better mom. And if I had a good relationship with my partner, then like the stuff with the kids just, it comes naturally. Like it just falls into place. So that was already a mindset that I had going into this.
Ashley Enzie
And that does support everything we know about the impact of maternal mental health on children, right? Like children see when you're not doing well. So maternal mental health is very important in terms of predicting children's outcomes and also the cohesion of the parental coalition. So both of those things.
Katherine Hurtig
What does that mean?
Claire
Check. What? What was the last one? Did you say?
Ashley Enzie
The cohesion of the parental coalition.
Claire
So like the parents.
Ashley Enzie
Yes.
Claire
Like how the parent interaction is.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. That they're on the same page.
Claire
Yes.
Ashley Enzie
That they are respectful towards each other.
Claire
Yeah.
Ashley Enzie
That they agree on lifestyle and discipline and like different things like that.
Claire
Yeah.
Ashley Enzie
And really, when we look at a family systems approach, that's the target for us in family therapy. How is the parental relationship going? Because we see its implications in every other relationship within the family system.
Claire
Definitely.
Ashley Enzie
So it's huge. Yeah.
Claire
I'm sure there's probably a lot of research out there around like relationships, too, that come out of like a medical diagnosis for a child. And I feel like it probably could go either way.
Ashley Enzie
That's what the research tells us, too, actually. If the pre-existing parental relationship is good, then going through something like this will probably continue to bond the parents.
Claire
Yes.
Ashley Enzie
And it'll strengthen their relationship. And if there was already weakness and cracks in the relationship, there's going to be a lot more distress.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Claire
Yeah. I know. I think we're certainly, I'm happy to say that we were on the first part of that conversation and that we had a strong relationship going into it. And I feel like it has only strengthened our relationship and allowed for a lot of really great conversations. And I'm very lucky to have a husband who is a fantastic communicator and shares his feelings a lot. So I think that really helped. And being on the same page and not meaning like we have to have the same opinion about everything, but giving each other space to have scary conversations. I can only imagine that it would be really hard for a relationship with going through something like this. If one partner wanted to express fears and concerns and the other one was just like, nope, nope, nope, can't talk about it. Nope, we're not. We're not going there. And that's not what my husband, Kurt. Kurt and I are not like that. And we have had like, it's just so weird to think about this, but we will be on a walk with the dog and we can have a very frank conversation about what Sloane's funeral would look like. And that is wild to be able to talk about that with somebody without breaking down, but it's because it's become a reality for us and we feel like it's healing. Like we both feel it's healing to have those conversations.
Katherine Hurtig
I would, I mean, and Ashley jumped in here with it, but yeah, I think it's important not to, to shy away from those hard conversations. Like, yeah, nobody wants to experience death, but if it's more open and talked about, I feel it would be…
Claire
It's not so much of a surprise, right? Like I know it's like you've, I don't know. I feel like you're not as blindsided, right? If you can have those. And I don't know, you probably know more than I do about this, Ashley, but I feel like this is normal for a lot of people when they're going through maybe potentially facing death. Like there are, there are death doulas now. Like there are people who help support you through that process. And I think it's because everybody's very different, obviously, but a lot of people find comfort in preparing. You prepare for the worst, hope for the best is what my mom always says. And that's kind of the mentality we have.
Ashley Enzie
Humans fundamentally, they don't like the uncertainty, right? They don't like the unknown. And in an experience like this, it is, it's full of unknown, right? And so to be able to have those conversations and just play back and forth, like what would happen, even though we're talking about something that maybe we don't want to happen, I think there's a degree of comfort and a degree of still soothing the natural anxiety that would arise just in being able to kind of envision possible futures and possible options. It gives us sort of some internal infrastructure a little bit to build off of when maybe different things in the future do happen. So we're not totally blindsided like you were saying.
Katherine Hurtig
Claire, let's talk about the idea of community and relationships because I know through my conversations on this podcast, social connection is a huge factor in our mental health and how we handle challenges. So talk about how community has been a part of your process.
Claire
Yeah, community is really, really big. So actually, it's one of the things that I talk about when I say, you know, let go of what you can't control and control what you can. I say you can control your thoughts, your actions, and your community. So community is a huge piece. And like I said, it wasn't something that was automatic for me to ask for help, but really finding the people who lift you up when you're feeling down and can bring you peace when the world feels chaotic has been really big for me. And that might mean letting go of some friendships. Like there's, you know, when you go through tough times, you really see who's there for you and who will show up not only when you're riding the limo, but when you're also on the yellow school bus. And those are the people that you need in your court. And, and I think I've, I found those people. And a lot of those actually have been new friendships that have been built through, through this. And, you know, you start to find yourself connecting with other people who have been through some really hard things because those relationships are just on a different level of understanding. So, so community has been big, whether it's friends, our medical team, family, obviously. And like I said, I've been seeing a psychologist quite regularly and my girls have as well. So just leaning on people for support and not being afraid to ask for help. We often set up a meal train when we're in the hospital. We have a meal train that gets set up. I don't hesitate to ask someone to pick something up for us if we're at the hospital and someone really wants to make slime. If someone reaches out, I'm like, hey, can you pick us up stuff to make slime? And, and, and like I said before, people want to help. They're, they're looking for a way to connect. And I think the hardest thing for me around the help aspect though, is that, you know, if, and this is, I guess, speaking to everyone out there, if you are alongside someone who was going through a hard time, you have to show up selflessly. You're not showing up because you want something out of it. And as an example, you know, if someone has offered to drop off a meal, just drop off the meal, even if I'm not home or if I'm not around, or if you have to leave it at the front desk at the unit, it shouldn't be because like you need to see me or you need to see Sloane. So I think that, you know, just showing up and helping and whatever that sense or whatever that capacity may be. And for those who don't know how to help or how to show up, silence speaks volumes. If you don't hear from someone, that means a lot. And I know that things like a child going through cancer and anything to that magnitude can be uncomfortable and it can be awkward and people don't know how to respond. But you just you show up and you send a text. The best thing is when someone sends a text and it says no need to respond, just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you. That's it.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, this has got to be such a tricky thing because it's like the friends that you said, you know, you might have lost in this time. I would, I'd like to hope that there's, there was no ill intention there. It is, it's just people don't know how to handle it. And I, I remember when our, our mutual friend lost her brother, silently, like not out loud to her, but I was very, very worried about how to properly show up, like how to say the right thing, the fear of saying the wrong thing, of being too much, not enough. And, yeah, so I'm sure that there are people in your life that have gone through the same thing where it's like you want to do something and you just don't know what. But like you said, it's doing it selflessly. It's like, okay, maybe I quote unquote show up and it's the wrong way, but it's trying. You know, it's like…
Claire
I don't think there is a wrong way to show up. I really don't. Unless you're expecting something out of it. Like I said, sometimes when you're in the mix of the stress and whatever, the last thing you need is to feel like you are obligated to sit down and have a visit with someone because they dropped off a shepherd's pie. I don't know. I just had shepherd's pie the other day. Comfort food. But I don't think, I think showing up is better than not showing up at all. And you're right. It is, it's hard and it's hard for some people to know what to say or what to do. But, but then that's also, you know, connecting with someone who's close to that person, like maybe they're a bit removed and you can ask them, you know, how can I help? Like I'm sure our mutual friend, she's one of our, both of our best friends. And I feel like she's had so many people reach out to be like, how can we help Claire? And she's like, I don't know. I'm not sure. But, you know, reach out to someone who's connected and then you can figure it out. And helping out doesn't mean dropping off a meal or sending a gift card or buying slime supplies for the child. It's just it's just feeling like people are thinking about you and there's no need to respond. It's just I'm thinking about you.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. What are some of those small ways that people have helped you out through this?
Claire
Well, whether or not it's small or not, but the meal train. So, and that's a really great online platform. It's an actual thing that you can sign up for this meal train. And that one was big for us because, you know, whenever we're spending long stays, whether it's a week, two weeks, six weeks was our longest, having a meal train set up with a core group of people, like we didn't put it out to social media. So just random people were showing up to the hospital. It was still people we were comfortable with in case we were seeing them. But having, you know, we talk about what you need to be to show up as your best self and fueling your body with good food is a really important one. So having that meal train, knowing that we were going to have someone drop off dinner every single night to the hospital for my husband or myself was really important. So that was a big one. I'm trying to think of other things. Oh, the very first year, the first Christmas that Sloane was diagnosed, I had two of my friends wrap all of our Christmas gifts because we just felt like we didn't have time to do that. So those are ways that, you know, people can show up. And as the person who's looking for help, it's not a bad idea. If you think of something, like jot it down in the moment, like, oh, I could really use support for that. Or, oh, I could, you know, and then later on you kind of have like your like list of the things that you can get help with. But initially it's really hard to know what you need and how to show up. So, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
On the flip side, what, I mean, I know you said there's no wrong way to show up. But I'm sure that there's been things that people have said that haven't quite hit the mark.
Claire
Yeah. Yeah, you're right. You're right. There have been some things for sure. But I always go with the lens that people are trying their best and like sometimes they show up and that's what they think. Like it's no different than the saying, what is the saying? We should listen to understand and not listen to respond. And I feel like that's, this is one of those situations that people are just trying to show that they have a connection, right? There's a connection somehow. So, you know, we got a lot of people talking about their, you know, and I'm not trying to downplay breast cancer, but my great aunt had breast cancer and she was given a year to live and she's lived for another 20 years. Like, yeah, great. And again, people are just trying to show up and they're trying to connect. And I understand that. So.
Katherine Hurtig
And yeah, the intention there is obviously to instill hope.
Claire
Yeah. So that's that's fine. And so I can't really think of, honestly, I can't think of anything that has stood out to be like, well, that wasn't really helpful. Because I try to go at it with a very different lens and understand that everybody's just showing up the way that they can and how they think they should.
Ashley Enzie
And I think there's this also, there's this other piece of people forget about the number of opportunities they have in communication to clarify and correct, right? And so like you might get it wrong. You might say something that doesn't land wrong or that, you know, hurt somebody's feelings or bring something up. But that's the part of like being in relationship. Right. And can we then just clarify and be there with somebody. Right. And you continue to have opportunities. Right. And so I think like this big thing of just like you don't have to know what to say. You're there to serve as a witness to pain. Right. And like you were saying, just the text of you don't even have to respond. But I'm thinking of you. Right. Just makes the load a little lighter, I think.
Katherine Hurtig
Claire, what I've seen in your social media, you've used the phrase healing out loud. So what does that mean to you? And why do you choose to share your story and your experience so openly?
Claire
First of all, I really want to write a book and I wanted to call it Healing Out Loud. But I think there's a lot of books called Healing Out Loud. I was like, oh, my gosh, this is such a genius idea. And then I went on Amazon. I'm like, ah, there's so many people that have this. So anyways, that won't be my book, but that's okay. Yeah, it's something that I learned early on that I have always found storytelling to be very therapeutic. And it's probably why I got into marketing and communications. That's my background. I like storytelling and I like telling stories. So if you look back at my phone from when Sloane was first diagnosed, I have so many notes. That's what I do. Whenever I feel anxious or I want to get something out, I take my app and my phone, my notes, and it's almost like by me putting it on paper or saying it out loud is my giving myself permission to let it go. Like that is my like let it go. I guess no different than, you know, if you are angry about something, you write it on a piece of paper and you can burn it, right? Like it's the same kind of idea. So I very much find, you know, my, for me, healing out loud is very therapeutic and everyone is very different. That's not the case for everyone. But the other thing too, that I find, um, over this journey, over the last couple of years of sharing our story and the ups and the downs and my feelings and how I've been handling it or not handling it has given everybody else the, um, feeling of it's okay to share and it's okay to be vulnerable. And I think when we see other people with that level of comfort, it gives us that feeling of comfort that like, oh, I can be vulnerable in return and I can share and I will be welcomed with love and respect and I can feel seen, heard and loved. And I think that's important for us to understand as human beings. Like, yeah, if you share, it gives other people permission in a sense to share in return.
Ashley Enzie
Those are like the exact words I use with clients. When you're vulnerable, it gives the people around you permission to also be vulnerable. And we get to enter into these much more honest relationships, right? That where genuine support lives. Those are like my words verbatim all the time.
Claire
Well, there we go.
Ashley Enzie
Permission to be vulnerable to the people who you love most around you. And that's like, I think, a very meaningful gift to give to the people around you.
Claire
It is.
Ashley Enzie
And your daughters.
Claire
Yeah, for sure.
Katherine Hurtig
And speaking about your daughters, this is a huge thing to happen to both of them. So how have you seen it impact them? How have you seen their mental health evolve, I guess? And what steps is your family taking to kind of protect them?
Claire
Yeah, so huge emotional and mental hit for them as well. Like they had an understanding of what cancer was because my father-in-law was actually going through cancer treatment at the exact same time. So it wasn't one of those things that we were willing to kind of like tippy-toe around. Like some families, depending on the child's age, don't really get into the details. But we knew as soon as like they heard the word cancer that they would know what that meant. The one thing we never really shared up front initially was that there was a chance that the cancer could come back. We felt like that wasn't something that was needed. Like why create, you know, unnecessary worry? Now that Sloane has relapsed, we've entered a whole other like new area of understanding of cancer for them and knowing that cancer can come back, which has been a challenge because as we go through treatment this time, it's harder for her to understand like, well, why are we going through this when it could come back? So as they've gotten older, we've seen an evolution of understanding and their mental health and how this is impacting them. And as much as I would like to say, like it's gotten easier because we know what to expect. So when we go to the hospital, we know what to expect. That's gotten easier.
Katherine Hurtig
Well, yeah, it's that certainty, right? Like we do, we like predictability.
Claire
Yeah. So we've had that. So that's great. But if I'm being honest, from a mental health standpoint, I think it's gotten harder because it is, it's exhausting. Like physically, like Sloane is physically exhausted the more she goes into treatment. And, you know, she just wants to be a kid. She just wants to go to school and she's missed a lot of school. And there's a lot more feelings that are coming out now when we're in for our week long sessions. We're in for a week, out for three weeks, in for a week. The treatment she's on right now, it's a chemo immunotherapy combination and the immunotherapy can be quite painful. So she's on ketamine, morphine, dexmed, hydromole, all these things. And I actually use it as a bit of therapy time because I feel like there's a lot of truth bombs that come out from slum. Yeah. And there's a lot that comes out. And as of late, the last few sessions, there's been a lot of anger. Like, I don't want to be here. I want to go home. And I remember the hardest thing that I heard from her the last time was that she said, I quit. I quit. And that is really hard to hear because as a parent, I know what that means. I can't tell her. Like, I'm not going to say Sloane. Well, if you quit, this is what the outcome could be. So I think it's gotten harder for sure. for both of the girls. And as they get older and they understand more, but we have been early on when the girls were younger, when someone was first diagnosed, we had them seeing a clinical counsellor that focused on art therapy, which my girls love art. So that was very healing for them. And as they've gotten older, we feel like they need a little bit more. So we just started, they're going to a psychologist. So, and I know my, my oldest daughter appreciates the toolbox. Like she's already talked about like the toolbox of strategies that are coming out of that, which is really important.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay. So Sloane, your youngest, she's the one who's dealing with the cancer, but Indy is obviously also going through this experience too. Yeah. What's your approach to Indy's experience through this whole thing? How do you make her feelings feel valid? How do you help her fears?
Claire
Yeah. Because, yeah, when Sloane was diagnosed, Indy would have been seven and a half. And now she just turned to 10. So certainly, you know, again, understanding of the world around us has evolved for her. Initially, when we first shared the news with Sloane and Indy, we actually shared it separately to give her the space and the freedom to feel whatever she needed to feel. We're like, we want to make sure she doesn't feel like she has to cover that up because Sloane’s there. And she didn't. She didn't really say much, but we didn't push it. And we knew that she would ask questions in her own time. And that has kind of come up over the years, just quite sporadically. So it's nothing, you know, we don't sit down and have deliberate conversations with Indy to see how she's doing. Because we notice with her, she feels more comfortable when it's on her terms. And so we've kind of let that happen naturally. And it has evolved and it comes up organically. but for Indy she I don't know if it's a fear of her not wanting to make us upset or make us hurt but she brings things up in a very interesting way like we were on summer holidays this year and we're at the dinner table and she out of nowhere was like let's play a game we're all going to go around and we're going to say our deepest darkest fear oh okay. And then one other time was like a secret. And anyways, roundabout kind of story is that I think she was looking for a place to see if any one of us, she didn't say it, but she was looking to Kurt and I to see if we said something about cancer and about Sloane dying. Like she was kind of planting that seed. And that's how she brings these things up. And that is why we've evolved and we've moved her to seeing a psychologist now, because we understand that she may need a neutral party to share those feelings and not feel the fear.
Katherine Hurtig
Well yeah and that also like Ashley like please talk about this but kids don't always have the language.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah and we talked about that last time on our podcast around children and trauma right and so this piece of maybe not having a space for it also like as like an older daughter right um not uncommon to take on that role as kind of a like a caregiver too and being so conscientious of other people's feelings right and so making sure there's still space for her somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. It can be a really tough one, I think. Right. If she's, she's not wanting to, if you're having a good day, mom, like not wanting to upset you with her feelings, but then also maybe shutting down some of her feelings in the process and maybe not your daughter, but maybe other children. Right. And so how are we still having conversations with them in ways where also there maybe isn't this hierarchy of experience that's formed. Right. It's just like we've talked about, right. Where it's so easy for us to go and say, you know, my experience isn't as bad this person's, right? But then does that potentially write off her own feelings for herself or for somebody else, right? In a way that she minimizes them or shoves them down or whatever it might be. And so I think when we're talking about siblings going through an experience like this, it becomes really important to make sure that they're not doing a comparative thing of experience, right? And, you know, they might still have issues at school or with friends or with whatever. And can we still kind of appraise those things as significant, even though they're maybe quite different from what our other children are going through. And so still holding space for their process and their development, even in the midst of this really big family thing. It's a lot of complexity to it, I think.
Katherine Hurtig
I like that term. And I'm sure as people listen to this episode, there might be a spark of that feeling like, oh, what I'm going through isn't as bad as this. So we have to make sure to not minimum, like it's not, it isn't a comparison. It's not a competition.
Ashley Enzie
Totally.
Claire
Hard is hard. And I always say hard is all relative. And that's something that has come up a number of times through the last couple of years for me is that I find that I'll have a friend who will be like, oh, but don't worry about like, that's just, it's nothing compared to what you're going through. And I'm like, no, I still want to be that friend who you can lean on for support because hard is relative and it depends what you're going through that day or that month or that season. And, and it depends, like, and obviously I had a very steep learning curve, but processing hard things, the tools and the concept and the ideas is the same, no matter how hard it is. Yeah.
Ashley Enzie
Right. I say that to clients all the time that, you know, sometimes I'll see people over time, right? Like we work together for a while and then they go away and then, you know, something new happens in life and they come back. Right. And it always feels like for big problems, there has to be some big answer or big solutions. But when we really strip it down, it is the same stuff, right? It's the same kind of tools. Totally. And just like you were saying, Claire, so like as this preventative, proactive way of being in the world, can we figure out how to take care of ourselves and respond to our needs well? Because whether it's just for your wellness and welfare now, or for the moments in life that come in the future, it will come up, right? And it's going to be the same tools that, you know, gives you the great day when things are going well and that keeps your head above water on the hardest days. Yeah.
Claire
Yeah. There's no right or good age for a child to be diagnosed with cancer. But again, when we talk about perspective, you know, I consider us lucky, I guess, with the age that Sloane was when she was diagnosed, because I can't, I can't imagine the families who have kids that are 15, 16, 17, they're in high school, they're, you know, navigating a whole other thing with relationships and they have their phones and they can Google things. And I don't know how parents handle that. Cause let me tell you, Google is a very scary place to be when it comes to cancer diagnosis.
Ashley Enzie
And I've heard this thing before too, that statistics from a medical perspective, they're bad indicators of individual outcomes. Right. And so you said that I think quite early on in our conversation of it's good to know statistics, but poor predictors of individual outcomes. And so I think we can look at stuff, but also knowing that this might not be representative of our story. And also, does it create harm to be engaged in a story that may or may not be relevant to us? How do we stay where we are?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, Claire, I'm sure that that's been a challenge, like balancing the amount of information you're taking in. Like you want to know what's going on, But yeah, at a certain point, is it like…
Claire
Overwhelming? Yeah. And everyone, that's another example of like where everyone handles things very differently and different needs. And early on, I think both my husband and I, when Sloane was first diagnosed, we were the type that we needed to know. Like we wanted to know all the things, but some people aren't like that. And that's why I think the medical teams are good at understanding and kind of sensing what people want to know and what they don't want to know. But yeah, our primary oncologist, when Sloane was first diagnosed, I remember saying, well, there's no cure for cancer. And she's like, well, no, there's no cure for cancer, but that doesn't mean this isn't curative. Like this can, this doesn't mean this is terminal. And she tried not to throw around too many statistics, but I got them out of her because that's what I need for certainty. I need the numbers. But you're right. Like there, but there are, there are on the flip side, like positive statistics, right? Like, yes, only 10% of kids survive after relapse. Who's to say Sloane's not going to be part of that 10? Yeah.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. And like also this piece of, for all of us, whether life is long or short, how do we want to spend our days and our time? Yes. Yeah. And I think you spoke to that a little bit too, right? Of it's exhausting to be exhausted and sad all the time, right? And like, we just don't know, right? We don't know how much time we get with anyone ever in life, right?
Claire
No, none of us know.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. And so like, let's use our time well. We really want to put our emotions, our energy, our opportunities.
Katherine Hurtig
Again, Claire, like you said, you're choosing how to show up.
Claire
Yeah, choosing to show up and your mindset. And those aren't, they're not easy things. But to me, what's harder is like sitting and being sad all the time.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, like we don't want to make it seem that, oh, if you're going through a hard time, you just choose to be grateful and choose to look at the good. No, like, again, it's not really a decision. something to work at. Like today I'm going to choose to take care of myself. I'm going to choose to reach out to that friend and the next day might be a different choice, but that's okay.
Claire
It's all, it's hard work. All of this is hard work. It's not easy. It sounds like a super easy concept of like, oh, you can't control control. You can't like, it's easy. Sure. But it's, it's not. And it's you, yeah, you have to work at that every day and you have to choose, make those choices every single day and some days you may show up and other days you won't. But the point is, is that you try. And I think what I really want to encourage from my story and what I share is that don't, you know, don't wait till you're faced with grief. Don't wait until you have a life altering event. Choose to make a change in your life today. And you have to work at it.
Katherine Hurtig
I mean, you have gone into it a bit, but how would you say that your perspective has shifted on life, on parenting, on all that?
Claire
Yeah, I guess if I can share a quick story about perspective. I remember one of my biggest aha moments of perspective was when we were in for our first long stay of high-dose chemo. So that one we were in for six weeks in total. And I could leave, obviously, the room, but Sloane was stuck in the small hospital room for six weeks. And, you know, we were at the point where she couldn't talk or swallow because the chemo she had had completely destroyed her GI tract. I was giving one of the chemos. I had to give her a bath every couple of hours because it would like seep out and burn her skin. So there's all of these things that were really intense. And I remember just like seeing her and look how miserable she was. And I just wanted to know when we were going to be able to get out because there was really no kind of end date. It was based on her counts. And I was just like, I just want to get out of here. I just want to go. I want her to go home. And then that's when I really feel like the first moment of perspective really clicked in my mind. And I thought, I actually know a mom who is in the ICU right now and her child is receiving life-saving support. I knew families through connections who were at the Rotary Flames house and their child was receiving end of life care. And I know so many families whose children are no longer here with us because cancer has taken them. And they would all give anything to be in the situation that I'm in. They would give anything to be in that room. So for me, that was kind of my first aha moment with perspective. And that was, I guess, the bigger, more heavy and serious one. But now with everything in life, you know, you don't fix the saying is don't cry over spilled milk. And it's so true. We don't worry about stuff as much. Like, you know, if the kids want to use the entire thing of glitter and just pour it all over and then like the rest gets thrown out, you just you let it go and you don't care.
Ashley Enzie
You learn what matters.
Claire
Yeah. And those little things don't matter. And I think perspective is a huge gift that can quickly pull us out of a negative place.
Katherine Hurtig
That example though, Claire, so how do you kind of have these two thoughts at once? So it's that thought of someone else has it worse, but still recognizing the suffering you're going through. You know what I mean?
Claire
Yeah. I guess it comes down to the, Ashley, what you were talking about is like not downplaying the feelings, right? It's still okay to sit in the suck and don't get me wrong. Like it's okay for me to be like, this really sucks. And here I am giving my child a bath every couple hours. And, and, and it's okay to sit in that emotion and feel those feelings. I think what where perspective comes into play is that we need to bring ourselves out of that. Like we can't sit in that for too long. And I think that's where perspective is a nice kind of a quick snap of things. And just it comes back to not sitting in the hard and the sadness and why me for too long is it's okay to sit there for a bit and feel the feelings, but what's going to bring you out of it. And perspective is often that thing for me.
Katherine Hurtig
Does gratitude come into play too? Like, are you seeing, I mean, obviously not like for the situation, but do you find moments of gratitude and does that help you throughout the day?
Claire
Oh, definitely. Um, I hate, I'm like the saint attitude of gratitude. It's such a buzzword. And like, there's a whole industry that's benefited from like $25 gratitude journals. Let me tell you, those things look pretty and they look fine. And then you get home and then you're like, I can do a couple of days. And then you're like, well, I'm not doing that anymore.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. It's, it's putting a bow on something that is really complex, but it's like…
Claire
But we shouldn't need, I think like as soon as you assign, like here's this gratitude journal that you have to write in every day, then it becomes like homework and it's a chore. And I think just being grateful is just noticing the small things around you. And I often say that, um, noticing life's simple pleasures is a really great way to distract us from life's hardships. And again, those are the things that we build into our daily routine and has to become a habit because it is sure great. It's hard to be grateful when things are hard. So as soon as, if you, the more you look for the good things, the more your mind will automatically recognize them.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's what I'm, yeah….
Claire
It's kind of autopilot. It becomes a bit of an autopilot thing.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, it's brain science. It's neuroplasticity. What you focus on, you amplify.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, which I think is very cool. Yeah, like you can actually change your brain.
Claire
Yeah, yeah, it's really neat. Yeah, so I'm, now the girls make fun of me. So we just moved recently to a neighborhood, Harmony, just west of the city. And every time we leave the neighborhood, like I see the mountains and like, oh, the girls, girls, look at the mountains. And they told me that I had one month of doing that. And it's six months later and I'm still like, oh, look at the mountain with the hay bales. Mountains is like a picture. Actually, the other day we were driving home yesterday and the mountains looked and I said this. I was like, they look like a watercolor painting and Sloane recognized that because she's like, oh yes, the layers of the light and the medium and the dark. So, and, and I tried to get the girls to see those things too. And, and that's something that didn't just, didn't just happen. Like I've been practicing that for years and years. Like I, um, my mom will appreciate this shout out. I remember when I was a kid at the dinner table, we would talk about, um, warm fuzzies and cold pricklies. Like that was how we re-recognize like what was good today and what wasn't good. And, and we still try to do that. And I think if people can instill that feeling of gratitude with their kids, it's a great way to get kids through hard times, too.
Ashley Enzie
But it's really important in terms of quality of life in general, too. And there's this thing where people actually overestimate, like, how happy the big things in life will make them. And they underestimate the little day-to-day stuff, right? And there's, like, all of these ideas, all this research around, like, when you have your first sip of coffee and it's just right, or the little interaction with, like, the barista or whatever. Those are all the little things that actually contribute to the picture of what our life feels like. It's not the big things. And so it's not a small thing. It's actually like what kind of colors our life over time. So it really matters.
Claire
That's amazing. I know when you say the cup of coffee, what comes to mind is we were gifted a Keurig coffee maker to have in the hospital. And yeah, it's so I could have a warm cup of coffee in the hospital from the moment I woke up. And that for me was a moment of gratitude.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, which is self-care, which is compassion, which is capacity. all of these pieces.
Claire
Adds to coping, all of that.
Katherine Hurtig
Do you see your girls picking up on that? Do they start to talk like that as well? Are they noticing good things?
Claire
I would love to say yes. Yes, my children are noticing the mountains and the sunsets.
Katherine Hurtig
That reminds me of a few years ago, we went on a family, like my husband's grandma, she bought the family a trip, like a cruise to Alaska. And Harrison, my stepson, was in one of his moods. And we were looking out at the landscape and he got all frustrated. I'm like, I don't know why you think ice is so beautiful.
Claire
You know, and I would love to be like, yes, the girls are so grateful for all of life's little things. But no, they still like, when are we going to get another dog? And let's go to Sephora, like all these things.
Katherine Hurtig
Which I guess is, I mean, it's a sign of normalcy, right?
Claire
It is.
Katherine Hurtig
Like they're 10 and 8?
Claire
Don't get me wrong. They are grateful. They are grateful. And when we talk about it at the dinner table, like they can come up with things to be grateful for. But I do feel like this feeling of gratitude, it's hard for me to pinpoint kind of when it really happened for me. Is it because I'm getting older or is it because of what we're going through or a combination of both? because, and you could probably speak to this, Ashley, but I, just in the last couple of years, I have found myself noticing like just landscapes a lot more and sunrises and sunsets. And I don't know if that's just a product of getting older or just going through crappy times.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. Like probably many things. Right. But like one thing I hear is like, we're all like a certain age and we've done a little bit of life. Right. And as you go through life and you realize, man, like all the big things I thought about, they're not quite, you know, hitting the mark all the time. You realize there's got to be something else. There's got to be a meaning that we make of our experience that makes it, you know, worth getting up every day and going to work or going to the hospital or doing whatever it is you have to do. There's got to be these small ways that life becomes rich. And I think maybe there's a process of trial and error as we do grow and have different experiences that hopefully moves most of us into this place where we can be appreciative and see what there is to appreciate in life.
Claire
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
And Claire, just to like one last thought, what do you want, what do you hope people take away when they hear your story today?
Claire
I think the biggest takeaway I would love from this is that, you know, even though it seems that I have really thrived through hard times, it's taken a lot of work. Like this isn't easy. Getting through hard things isn't easy. And I feel like I've said it so many times, so I sound like a broken record, but just building habits into your daily routine that will help you get through hard times, like changing your mindset, practicing gratitude, choosing how you're going to show up and making sure you surround yourself with a positive community before things get hard. So really making sure you have those tools in your toolbox and not forgetting about them on good days. We need to practice those things when your day is going well, because then they're easier to pull from when things are hard.
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you so much. Thanks, Claire, for coming here and sharing your story. And thank you, Ashley, for your insight too.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, thank you, Claire. I think you're a really good example of what it means to be well-resourced, right? And you would never want to say that somebody is well-suited to go through something like this because you would never want this for anybody, right? But I think that for people who are listening too, you are an example of what it looks like to be aware of your mental health, to take good care of yourself and to respond to life resiliently. And yeah, thank you for letting me be here and getting to hear your story today. And thank you, Katherine.
Claire
And thank you for giving me the platform to heal out loud. TM.
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in. This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, Manuel Montano, Jenna Forbes, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Claire Masikewich and Ashley Enzie.
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favorite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully Podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling to anyone in Alberta with no waitlist and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com and counsellingalberta.com.
For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the U.S., seek help from your general medical practitioner.