Season 3, Episode 21: What men often miss about mental health — and what helps
For many men, identity is tied to being strong, steady, and responsible for providing to their family. But those expectations aren’t always healthy or realistic. In this episode of Living Fully, we talk to counsellors Sarah Rosenfeld and Joel Zimmerman about how identity, masculinity, and mental health intersect. They discuss the ways pressure shows up in daily life, why some coping strategies stop working over time, and how small shifts in perspective can make a big difference. It’s about redefining strength, recognizing when it’s time for support, and seeing that reaching out can be one of the healthiest choices you make.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully. Each episode is a chance to talk about mental health in a way that's simple, honest, and helpful. We'll share stories, tips, and tools to help you feel supported and feel your best. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
Men's mental health is talked about more these days, but that doesn't always mean it's easier to ask for help when you're struggling. Whether it's the pressure to be the provider or the belief that you have to handle everything yourself, getting support can feel harder than it should. In this episode, I'm joined by counsellors Sarah Rosenfeld and Joel Zimmerman to talk about why that is and how identity and expectations shape men's experiences with mental health. We'll look at what happens when the usual coping strategies stop working, what getting help can actually look like, and how counselling can strengthen your ability to handle life's challenges in a healthier way.
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Okay, we are here with a couple of podcast all-stars, Sarah and Joel. Thanks for being here today.
Joel Zimmerman
Thank you.
Katherine Hurtig
And yeah, we're talking about a lot of big things today, really broadly, men's mental health, but also how identities are formed within that, whether that's the labels that we give ourselves or the jobs that we have and kind of like the pressure and stress that comes with that. So if you are just listening, Sarah, Joel, tell our audience a little bit about yourselves.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Sure thing. Okay. My name is Sarah. I am one of our counsellors here at the Calgary Counselling Centre. I also work a lot with students. So I help support our student programs here at the centre. So our internship and our residency. And I get to do lots of other fun things by being here at the centre because this is a growing dynamic place. And so I get to be in the community sometimes. I get to work with Joel other times. I get to do lots of different things. But that's just a little bit about me.
Katherine Hurtig
Excellent. Joel, how about you?
Joel Zimmerman
My name is Joel Zimmerman. I'm also one of the counsellors here. I'm a registered psychologist. That is a role, a title that I get to kind of keep on.
Katherine Hurtig
Part of your identity.
Joel Zimmerman
Identities and titles. Yeah, but I'm a counsellor here. I hold a caseload and I also work with training students. I'm a big fan of coming in here and talking about this and talking about these kinds of discussions. I think that's something really cool that we get to do.
Katherine Hurtig
Excellent. So when we talk about men's mental health, that kind of that broad idea, what do you think we often miss in the conversation?
Joel Zimmerman
Well, I'll start. I think there's I think the first one is that I think people sometimes shy away from having the discussion about men's mental health. I know I do as someone who is often asked these kinds of questions as a male in my role. And just that idea that somebody who does get to work with different populations, I never want to paint anybody in a box. I never want to put labels or ideas onto somebody. But the fact of the matter is there are commonalities that people do see. And again, those commonalities are not to prescribe a certain way of being. But I think the idea that there are common experiences, that there are people that have them, the way they experience life and the way that they react sometimes. And discussions like this, I think, shed light on and open up the opportunities to really normalize and make what is sometimes a really isolating and maybe even ostracizing experience. Just shed light on and make it normal and make it easier to get help.
Katherine Hurtig
I would think that that is, yeah, even the label of like men's mental health, women's mental health. Like everyone doesn't necessarily fit the same in those categories.
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah. So I would add that. I mean, just to what you have said and what Joel mentioned, there's a huge complexity here. So when we're talking, right, there's some things that we can provide as guardrails, conversation starters, give you some information. But I think we have to recognize that every person who experiences something related to their mental health, it's going to be unique to them and that we never want to take that the conversation, that that's a big part of helping people navigate is we want to help them access some support that really is tailored to how they want to be seen, heard, validated, and supported.
Katherine Hurtig
And so in your work with men, does this idea of identity and how they kind of define themselves, does that come up?
Joel Zimmerman
I think absolutely. I think that one of the complexities I think that maybe we'll bring into this is like the idea that no person that comes into counselling is a siloed individual. I think the Calgary Counselling Centre does something really, not unique, but we take a family systems approach to everything that we do. Every person exists in a system. So even if we're talking about men's mental health, really we're talking about all the people's mental health that might exist in a person's system, their family and their friends, these all kind of intertwine. And so, yeah, the identities that people kind of bring into their relationships, who am I in comparison to these people that I might go to for help matters a lot. And if you're if you do feel like your relationship is I am somebody who is to look out for or provide for these people, it might be harder to reach out to those people and get help because you don't want to burden them or you don't want to scare them or you don't want to make them feel like you don't have some, you know, a moniker of control that your identity might say that is important. And so I think that's where one of the, I think identity kind of comes into this discussion in my eyes.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, no, I think Joel's raising something really important there. You know, in my work with men, that piece around identity, being the provider, being the person that people come to for support, makes it difficult for them to be on the receiving end of that support. And so it's really important, I think, in our role as counsellors to be able to acknowledge the difficulty that that poses, but also the strength that it takes for them to know, well, I can't actually go to these people for that necessarily, to the depth that I would if I were to come and talk to a counsellor who's a trained professional to support me through that. But it's also helping normalize that people need support from time to time. And I think, yeah, especially if you're dealing with people that are always the ones that answer the questions, solve the problems. How do you then help it be OK for those people to say, you know, I need some guidance here. I need some support. I need to throw some ideas at the wall and get somebody to listen to me or validate my experience.
Katherine Hurtig
So if, with the men you're working with, they've already obviously made that first step. Like they're in the room. So they recognize that they want to make some kind of change. Do you still have to kind of break down some of those barriers of the resistance to ask for help, get help?
Sarah Rosenfeld
I would say it's once they're in the office or in the chair or however you want to describe that. It's not so much that it's about this piece for me. And I don't know what you would say, Joel, around this piece around vulnerability. So there can still be performative elements in the counselling space where they're still trying to show their counsellor they're in charge, they're managing it. And so in the work, and I think the work that I've been able to do successfully with men, it's being able to help them realize that I see them that way, but that it's okay for us to explore these other things because that actually might lead to more strength and better resilience and ability to manage that when they have more awareness or understanding of those components. But that for me has been something that's been interesting. I don't know if you've noticed that.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, no, definitely. And I mean, like, this is exactly one of those places where we'll say that, like, that's not unique to men.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
You know, getting in this space is the easy part to some degree. It's sometimes the hardest part, but that's just where the conversation starts, literally. In my experience, I think I am privileged in the sense that being a male in these spaces, I'm afforded a certain level of, we can talk about this. Like, I think there is that ability when I do get to work with a client who kind of maybe strongly identifies with some of these male roles or some of these common themes where I can make it like it's just two guys having a discussion, two guys talking. And studies show like when it comes to men seeking mental health support compared to, you know, women or other people in general, men and women both do seek support, but what they seek in terms of like where they get it. So men are more likely to get something from their kind of like relationships at work or their relationships with kind of instrumental relationships that they have. So they're not like their friends. They're their friends through for a reason. They're their friends through something. They're not like somebody that they met on the street and struck up a conversation with. These are people that they've known because they work with them or they're through their relationships through other elements of their life. And when guys have those, they often do feel supported enough by them. That's one of the reasons why I think men don't often seek professional mental health support, because they get some level of support. They usually say that's enough. It's the ones that don't have any of that or aren't able to feel that level of connection in those mundane spaces. But I think, yeah, so that vulnerability, again, I think I'm afforded a little bit of credit to get into. But it's still absolutely something that somebody needs to, yeah, accept that, yeah, support and help and change. Just even defining those terms. Why are we here? What are we talking about? know what's what's going on?
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
And what are you looking for because very often sometimes change is not something that is easily seen because they recognize that it's hard or maybe they don't feel like they can do anything about it.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah you made a really good point it's not something that just men experience, like from my own counselling experience that vulnerability is it is hard but I guess any kind of change any kind of transformation it's not going to be comfortable.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, no and I think yeah so I think kind of go back to your kind of original question is as you know, the ability to step into the space is kind of step one and then make it worthwhile is step two. And I think that's kind of where it comes between the counsellor and the client to negotiate and come to an agreement and alliance. And through that relationship, figure out really what we're doing and how we're going to do it. And sometimes that can be very, I want to say, by the book, if you will, as we will really want like quote unquote therapy that they read about or learn about in a, you know, and some people do just want to have a healing discussion. Um, and sometimes it has to be named and sometimes it can be a little bit more fluid. Um, but it does require somebody to step in and say some things that maybe they weren't, don't feel like they can say other places or figure out how to, I don't know what your experience has been, Sarah, but.
Sarah Rosenfeld
That's interesting. I I'm really resonating with what you said about natural support networks and how for men, there are probably some natural ways or networks that they turn to. It's when it becomes a little bit more intimate, I would say, or it's not something that you're going to have a conversation with at the pub or playing hockey, that it becomes something where they're looking and searching for a little bit more of that professional.
Joel Zimmerman
But maybe you've had this experience where like someone, you know, they're talking with us as counsellors about some level, some, some topic and inevitably ask the question, like, do you talk about anybody else with this? And they said, no, I would never, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I don't want to burden them with that. I wouldn't want to. And then usually you at some point in time also get to hear about how they've helped other people. They talk about this other person who brought something to them or, you know, this guy has this going on or this person in their life, you know, they told me about this and I always like, and you know, I'm always so curious, like, well, and when they brought that up to you, did you feel burdened? Did you poo-poo them and go, don't talk about that stuff? You were there to listen and probably help that person. Like most people, you know, I find are willing to step into that and help. Now, if you don't have the headspace or you don't know what to do about that, absolutely, that can be challenging. I always just think it's kind of unique. And I wonder if you've ever had that experience where they're thinking, I can't bring this to somebody else because I don't want to burden them, but I'll do it for them. And there's that, again, like that helper mentality, that fixer mentality, that ability to step into those spaces because like I can take it, I can do it.
Katherine Hurtig
I feel that's, you know, in some respect, like it's really universal. Like we talk about or I've talked, you know, to you guys about just how we treat ourselves versus how we treat other people. You know, you wouldn't talk this way to a friend. Why are you doing it to yourself kind of thing? Just that discrepancy. I mean, it's a silly question, but it's like if it's so universal, why can't we recognize that everyone's okay with helping other people, I should be okay with getting help myself?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Because there's still a perceived weakness around not being able to keep it all together and manage it. Even though we try really hard to understand that we've had the experience of it, I think still at the end of the day, how are people going to perceive me? If I need help in this moment, will I be defined by that seeking of help? Will I be defined by that other person by being vulnerable in this moment. And I think we see people much more holistically than that, but there's a big fear, I think being defined by that. And how will that change my relationship with other people, with my peers, with trusted members of my community?
Joel Zimmerman
Just the stigma.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah. I think the stigma is still really strong and that piece around the shame, right? If I step forward, do I get defined by that moment? Does that then mean that I'm only that?
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. I also think just to go back to like, if this is such a universal experience that kind of, we all understand that, you know, everybody does this, but why can't I do it for myself kind of thing? So I think, yeah, shame stigma still takes a lot of guts to step into. The reality is that like our brains don't work like that. Our brains see our own perspective first and we can only see past the end of our nose. It really is coming through in a counselling relationship or the ability to say it where someone does point that out. Like, would you treat somebody else the same way? Once you hear that perspective, it kind of again sheds light on this idea that we're kind of hiding behind this. But yeah, it is not something easily done because our perspectives, it's natural to kind of take that. And it's hard to step out of your perspective and see another's. That's a lot of the work that I think we do in counselling is helping people define different perspectives.
Katherine Hurtig
Bringing in this idea of masculinity, I've been seeing more videos and stuff about like the alpha male and being that typical male figure. So does an identity like that, if someone resonates with that, is that also going to kind of prevent them from getting to that vulnerable place?
Joel Zimmerman
I think the discussion about like typical masculinity or masculinity and as an identity that, like you said, I ascribe to, it's a really fine point because no one's sitting there pointing at it going like, that's me. Like I do that. But there are experiences that define some traditional characteristics that some people really value, right? This idea of being a helper or this idea of providing. No one realizes, I think, the impact of those kind of for the better or for the worse until they start to not be helpful anymore. I don't know if that's like an overly vague expression, but like it's all fine as long as everything works.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
It stops being fine when it no longer works, or at least like, yeah, the way that you want to show up no longer, you know, is aligned with those people around you. You know, there's a lot to be said about traditionality. And it's like, if everyone's on the same page, go for it.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Exactly.
Joel Zimmerman
If you're not, then now we're in conflict and now we're having challenge.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, I think it's those expectations. And it's not just the expectations you have of yourself, but it's in that…
Katherine Hurtig
The external expectations for sure.
Sarah Rosenfeld
So if there's flexibility in terms of how you can be seen in that external world, then you've got a little bit more leeway to play with. But if they're pretty defined and you decide that or something happens and you can't maneuver that, that I think is where the conflict arises. And then people are doubting, questioning. And then sometimes they hold more tightly to the identity that gives them relief and comfort and realize they don't realize, actually, that that's maybe what's creating some of the problematic situations in their life. But it's very, those identities are pretty important.
Joel Zimmerman
Well, and I think if we, if we define, I think like talking about like how identity and mental health coincide, I think that's an important starting point because again, people sometimes misattribute what they do with who they are. You ask someone, well, tell me about yourself. Yeah. Like you started this conversation and Sarah did it better than I did. But the first place I went to was oh my I'm a registered psychologist like that must be who I am but you know tell me about yourself is a big broad question and nine times out of ten if you ask somebody…
Katherine Hurtig
They're going to go with their career yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
That's what you do, that's not who you are.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
So why this is a big discussion and like where that intertwines with mental health and I think that flexibility that Sarah's bringing in is because sometimes you lose your job yeah now if you lose your job and that's your quote-unquote identity then who are you? Good question. Now you're in trouble because if you figured out who you are for, you know, and you're not, or you're not able to extend who you are past what you do and you're no longer doing that thing for whatever reason, you're going to have a bad time. And you're going to be scrambling to either figure out what, what that is. So yeah, I think when it comes back to identity, understanding that like what you do is very different than who you are. And I think again, traditional go back to, you know, male roles and whatnot, but like the idea of like surnames, those are all professions. You know, our society has been built around this idea of what you do is kind of linked to who you are. Because at one point in time, you know, if you were the milkman, you were the milkman and that's who you were for your town. And yet maybe you've kept that name in some way. And it was even your surname or where you came from was your surname. So like all of these things actually kind of are linked in a lot of ways in our psyche to who we are. But in today's world that we have evolved into recognizing that it's more than that. And if it isn't defined and you haven't stopped to think about it, then yeah, it can, you can get yourself in trouble if you don't have the flexibility around that.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Like those things are fluid. So what happens when you work with clients, what happens when someone's main identifier, whether that's, you know, a career or a sport or a relationship, when that ends, how do you deal with that? Like how do you help them deal with that loss of identity?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Well, I think it's going back to what Joel said. If they're defining uniquely as that way, it's about helping grow the perspective of who they are. So he said it really eloquently. It's what you do. It's not who you are, but to actually work through what that means takes a ton of work. Well, who are you in the world? You can be that person on the street. If you define yourself as a helper and friendly and responsive, you can do all of those things. It doesn't have to happen in a workplace exclusively. But also if you've only ever spent your resources, time and energy in the workplace, because that's where you see, you get that reinforced, it fills you up and then that's no longer there. It's helping people bridge to where else can they be the way they see themselves or how else can they contribute or…
Joel Zimmerman
Without it being another thing you do external. It's hard.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
It's hard.
Katherine Hurtig
Do you dig into that by getting into their values?
Joel Zimmerman
That's one way.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
That's absolutely one way. I think back to work that I've done with people who have been injured in a workplace, workers' compensation, WCB is a role that we sometimes see ourselves helping. And yeah, people who have had longstanding careers, they've done lots of things in their life, but really we're talking about the end of maybe the end or a giant shift in their career. And that is a big thing to wrap your head around. Sometimes values as a way to kind of figure out, well, what, what next? You know, but just highlighting some of the things that they have done in their life where their relational roles, maybe they are a parent or a sibling or a child themselves. Maybe they do have social relationships where they fill other roles. So again, those, those kind of slide into just, you know, shifting one to another, right? There's one identity and I'm just going to shift over to another, which can be its own problem. But again, the values behind that, why are those things important to you? So having discussions just around, again, perspective. Like when somebody says, well, I've been doing this for my whole life. What else am I supposed to do? And then we ask questions like, well, what have you, what do you do in your free time? Or what, you know, what are those things that bring you a lot of joy or that you enjoy doing? And they hear their identities kind of come out from that or what other things they identify with that perspective then kind of opens up and sheds some more light on some different opportunities.
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think that ability to be flexible and see yourself as more than what you currently are is a big part of what you do in the counselling space. I also would say that when I've worked with people in similar situations to what Joel describes, there's a lot of work we need to do on actually letting go of that identity, of grieving that identity, and of actually starting to think about what other things can I be. So as much as people think it's just something they get over, I think that's where therapy really can play a pretty key role of giving yourself the time and place to actually, well, yeah, what ways did this fill you up? And what were the great things about that? But what were also the things about that that were problematic that maybe didn't get looked at or weren't something that you explored so that maybe when you do the next thing, or you just decide where you want to go, you've got a little bit more awareness around some of the pitfalls, some of the things that work well.
Joel Zimmerman
Well, I think a lot of these, again, we're coming back to the idea of identity, like it is relational. It's again, like who am I in relation to…
Katherine Hurtig
Other people, yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Other people, other things, right? So that's a common place. It's easiest to talk about this, you know, when we're talking about things like work, relationships, career, education, you know, nationality, and things that we do for kind of our city, country, whatever. And sometimes those are later in life discussed, right? So the other element of this, when it comes to identity or maybe roles where they're no longer congruent and there's some incongruency that's causing some sort of distress. And that's where we see people coming into counselling because what they've been doing is no longer working for whatever reason. And I think one of the challenges or one of the fun questions that I always love to ask when somebody talks about the thing that they're doing, who they are that they're identifying with, and as no longer working. And I say, well, how did you get there in the first place? How did you start doing this? And sometimes you'll hear people say, I don't really know. I just kind of fell into it. Or like it was an opportunity that came up and I just ran with it. And I was really good at it for a long period of time. Some of these things fall into our lap and we never really spend any time asking like, should I be here? Am I doing the right thing? Am I, am I being who I want to be? I just ended up doing it.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, it’s not really a decision.
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly. So the thing, you know, when I talk about with younger people coming in who are experiencing some disconnect with kind of who they are, not sure, it's because the things that they're doing that they're kind of linking with who they are, then they're not making choices. There are other people's choices. There are other people's expectations. You should go and do this, be this, do this. That are linked to their identity or they're doing things that make them feel like who they are. But those things are no longer working. And when you ask them like, yeah, how did you get here in the first place? And they didn't really make a decision. If it's no longer working, then they would feel a lot of discontent. They would feel a lot of maybe even like resentment because they didn't really choose this thing. It was put upon them or they just kind of fell into their lap. And kind of redefining that, I think, even from an early age in that kind of identity formation stage of life is really important to do.
Sarah Rosenfeld
I also think, Joel, that though it happens when things in life happen. So if people decide to become parents or they're in an unfortunate accident, those things that may have actually aligned and worked, I don't know, things start to shift, because your priority and your focus changes. And so when you're spending more time doing something other than what you thought you were going to be doing or that you previously had done, it opens up opportunities for people. And then they start to have maybe tension in the role that may have actually worked before, may have been aligned even. But these big things can happen, right? Parenting is a huge change. Being single and then being in a relationship is a huge change. Moving cities is a huge change. There's all these developmental things that happen that we kind of just assume, well, I'll just keep doing what I've always been doing. But actually, there's a process that goes into that. And there are choice points along the way or things that stop making sense, stop having meaning.
Joel Zimmerman
Right. Or things that like traditionally worked in this one setting.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Okay, to speak more generally, I think we can talk about ways that I'm going to say men show up or sorry, sometimes cope with experiences as being external versus internal.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Joel Zimmerman
Sometimes, and again, I don't want to speak in generalities, but I'm going to. When we're forced to cope with challenges, externalizing is going outside of ourselves. So that's coping mechanisms that might be external from kind of thinking inwards and it's going outwards. At the best, that can look like doing, you know, distraction activities, doing things where we're focusing on other things. Sometimes those are healthy distractions. Sometimes they're unhealthy distractions. Everything from working too much or working out to going outside to see people going outside of ourselves, as opposed to internal, where we're going inside ourselves and self-blame or doing introspection, very internal work. So it's common to look externally. So when some people come in having coped with strategies externally, I go to my people, I go to my places, I go to do the things that make me feel good. For whatever reason, their change has made one of those or all of them vanish or change or they can't access those things anymore. All of a sudden, your coping strategies are gone. You don't have them. So that's now a big change. And now you need to be flexible, to go back to that word, to say, okay, well, how did that work for me? Why did that work for me? What are the things that I can be doing and can I get that elsewhere as opposed to saying, well, I don't have, my guys aren't here anymore, so what am I supposed to do? I don't have them to talk to anymore. I moved across the country, or they moved across the country. What am I supposed to do? And they'll sit in that and they'll be rigid against that and say, well, there's nothing I can do as opposed to being flexible to ask the question, okay, well, it was really nice to have someone to talk to outside of the home. Where else can I get that? And that might be difficult, but those are conversation starters and counselling potentially.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So like as you're talking about this and thinking like obviously if a problem comes up, we go to our typical coping mechanisms, right? Because that's what we know. And if that's not working anymore, I'm sure it's very common. Like a lot of people, like they wouldn't know what else to draw on.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Absolutely.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. I mean, is the answer like always counselling or would you say like you need some kind of self-awareness to know where to look for different coping mechanisms? Do you know what I mean?
Joel Zimmerman
I'm going to bring the concept that, you know, you were asking earlier about kind of the, you know, getting in the chair is one thing, but kind of breaking down that level of like resistance or challenge or stereotype or whatever is sometimes the other. The expansion on that is someone saying, well, what else am I supposed to do? I don't know, is a really viable answer. They don't know what to do. It's not that you lack self-awareness to know where else to go.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
You don't know what you don't know.
Katherine Hurtig
I remember like many times in counselling getting frustrated and like being posed a question like I don't know.
Joel Zimmerman
So that's not resistance. That's a legitimate answer that is now between you and the counsellor to say that's a really good question.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Now what do we do with it? Let's try and find what else. And the common things about those kind of questions are sometimes the answer to I don't know isn't, again, resistance or stigma. It's I don't think there's anything I can do about this. Like I know that there are probably things, but it's not going to work. It's not going to work for me. It's a different situation. And that's, you know, or I don't know where else to go. Like, is there anywhere else I can go? Is there anywhere else I can go to talk to somebody or develop these relationships? I don't, I don't think it's possible. And that's, you know, unfortunate, but, and might be true, but that's exploration and therapy. So I don't know, kind of the answer that I don't know whenever I hear about that, like resistance, it's usually you don't know what you don't know. So the self-awareness probably brought you to the experience of like, okay, I need to do something.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Joel Zimmerman
Or I'm listening to somebody saying I need to do something. That's the starting point.
Katherine Hurtig
How would someone get to the point where they're asking themselves or recognizing I need to do something? Like that's what you said, Joel. They've got to the point where they know that they need to do something. What would they notice in their lives, I guess?
Joel Zimmerman
How would you know when you're starting to slip?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
I mean, there's lots of different things you'd probably notice. But I think one of the big things is if the things that you're doing aren't giving you a sense of relief or joy or they're not filling the bucket any longer, those strategies probably aren't you working in the same way that they have in the past. So you're still going to do your socializing or you're still going to do your walk. But at the end of that, nothing really changes. Right. it's not giving you the perspective that we talked about earlier or rejuvenating you or getting you excited about doing something or, oh, that reminder of somebody planning a trip actually made me want to go and think about how I can get some time off or get some time away. I think it's when it's this thing of it's a repeated cycle. It just feels more like rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. There's information coming in to help you be curious or ask another question or talk to somebody different. I think that would be some of the things that whatever you're doing, you're going through the motions, but you're kind of, you're a passenger in your life. You're not really living your life to the fullest at that point.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. I think, yeah, you're touching on that kind of that one general and yet really specific element of this. I'll maybe make it more general. I think the recognition of any of those things that you're doing, maybe your reactions, I heard you talking about, yeah, when you're not getting something out of it that maybe you want, you know, you typically would. I think that atypicality, like what's no longer your typical way of reacting or being, and that's kind of outside of your norm. And not just growth, but it's no longer working. There's a misalignment. I think those are really things to be aware of. Like you're handling situations and you're like, I'm doing this much differently and it's not helping. It's not I'm doing this differently and oh my God, look at all these great things. I'm doing this differently and it's really not working for me. So when things are out of character and you're reacting in a certain way, you're going to that distraction that you know you typically wouldn't. Or you're reacting to a person or a situation in a way that makes you not feel great about yourself or other people are not making you feel good about how you showed up. When it's out of character, when those reactions or those actions are misaligned with like your values, you're doing things and you're like, that's not who I am. There's that real identity. That's like, okay, so there's something you value and here you're acting out against it. So I like to throw in terms like frequency, duration, and intensity.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
One misstep. Okay. Like, yeah, maybe it's bringing your attention to something, but you're doing it regularly and it's lasting a long time. And though the waves that it's causing disturbances are really intense. Okay. Now we're dealing with something that might highlight, you know, yeah, you're not coping in a, in a healthy way. And then when others, right. It's like, go back to the idea of when others bring something up to you, it's important to step outside your own perspective because we don't always see it. It's tough to put that on other people to say other people need to be the litmus test for when I'm not okay. But if there are people in your life who do care about your functioning for a number of reasons and they're saying you're not okay, what's going on here? We need to be able to listen to that. We need to be able to recognize someone sees something in me that may be out of character or that might be detrimental to ourselves. And it takes a lot of courage again to acknowledge that too and admit that maybe and saying, yeah, you're right.
Katherine Hurtig
Do the two of you see patterns in the men you're working with? Are they often coming in with like a clear understanding? Like, hey, I'm, I'm depressed. I'm dealing with this. I'm anxious. Or is it more of just a, you know, kind of a, a concept? Like, I don't know, something's off. I need help. Like, are, do you guys see patterns in that? How are men describing how or why that why they're coming in?
Joel Zimmerman
I'll also I’ll come back to the idea like usually we see the coping strategies no longer working.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah?
Joel Zimmerman
So it's people don't bring in their problems they bring in the solutions that they thought they had that are no longer fixing or helping okay so like the example and I’m going to go like you know just go straight into the hard ones is like alcoholism or substance use please don't take this out of context substance use alcoholism isn't the problem. It is a solution that someone came up to for another problem. They thought that numbing it or using alcohol or substance to get away from that is the thing that was helping. It is a solution to a problem that is not helpful. So when someone comes in because of a coping strategy, that's what I mean. They're coming in because something that they were doing to deal with a problem has been highlighted to themselves by themselves or by others as that's no longer healthy. That's not working. You need to get that quote unquote fixed. There is still a problem that we haven't actually identified. There is some level of depression, anxiety. There is a reaction to something going on that we're talking about. Maybe that's within them or maybe that's an external situation that they're dealing with, but it's usually they're not handling it in the best way.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, I would agree with that. So it's sort of, you know, they research at nauseum. They become informed. But now it's to the point where their partner is noticing they're going down these rabbit holes and it's really not helpful. It's leading to more irritability, more anger. The thing that they're supposed to be alleviating is actually worsening. And it's other people around them noticing that, wow, something's changed or you're really struggling. And then they actually do listen. They tend to reach out and say, you know, I'm here because somebody's noticed that this isn't working all that well. Or, you know, I need to kind of explore this or a pattern that used to be there that I thought I was managing is not managed anymore. I seem to have been tipped over and not really sure why. And then you explore what were the, you know, what were the precursors that led to this? And there's usually a there's a pattern, right? There's been additional stress at work or stress in the family, right? The relationship with dad that used to be okay, something shifted there and dad's health has gotten worse or the type of interactions they were having aren't, it's not meaningful anymore. There's more stress. I don't know. Joel, what were you going to say?
Joel Zimmerman
Well, the other example is, yeah, like a financial issue. So I'm just going to work more. But now all these other things are to fall by the wayside. Now that becomes a problem. Yeah. Right. So there's always a reason why we're behaving the way we're behaving. And to our mind, it's we're trying to do the best we can with what we have. And again, these aren't problems. These are solutions that people have come up with that are just just unfortunately, they're not the right kinds of solutions. So I think that's a real pattern. But again, in the other kind of vein of like patterns that we see attitudes towards how to address issues, like the idea of the fix it mentality, like I just want to fix it. And knowing that not all answers have fixable solutions. I'm rolling my eyes as I say that because it's not necessarily not fixable, but it's just that the solution isn't as black and white formulaic as one would hope. And that might require additional skills that are not in their skill set. And so it's really, really frustrating when you try and take a fix it mentality to a problem that takes a lot more nuance.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
How you've shown up to problem solve for your entire life is probably the thing that got you exactly as successful as you are. Maybe that was an incredible boon to your success and that you should be giving yourself all the credit for that. You are good at that kind of problem solving. Here is a new type of problem that maybe you haven't experienced yet. That's all. It's just a different fix it. You just don't know that that's a solution yet. And that's a big thing to kind of wrap your head around. And so, yeah, that reaction that forms from statements like that, I think, goes back to stigma and it goes back to the challenge of this. Right. It's not that like every problem has a solution, but like every problem can be figured out to some degree. It might not have been the solution that you imagined as an A plus B equals C solution.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
But there is something that's going to cause something to move in a different way.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, like a wait and see. Like it's sort of sometimes it's a you need to be waiting, observing, noticing and then be invited in, not take over. So I think as Joel said there, a lot of these things that led you to be successful. Well, if I take those things away, am I not going to be successful? And what we're saying is, no, those were great strategies, got you to where you need to be and maybe even want to be. But we want to add to that so that in more different scenarios and situations, you can wait and see. You can ask a question. You can step in and problem solve. Like, how do we build that repertoire? Yeah, or be patient. Yeah, or be patient. Sit back. And sit back and observe because, you know, sometimes being in the background and that person noticing you that you were there, they come to you later on when there aren't 15 people in a room because you happen to be one of the people in that room.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think I like that approach is how do we just keep building people's abilities, their capacities?
Katherine Hurtig
Because that's something I think, you know, or we hope that will resonate with men is that counselling, it's not just sitting around, you know, talking about your feelings. It's building skills.
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah. Well, and yeah, like different types of counselling exist. And again, when we talk about change-based counselling, yeah, we're not just sitting around here talking about your feelings. I want to help people feel like they're moving forward. And I want to get fired at some point in time. I really look forward to that with my clients where they say, I no longer need you, you know, for now, knowing full well that they can come back when they're challenged in a new way next time. And I think that's the beauty of counselling sometimes is we're not actually solving the problems for today. We're preparing for the solutions for the next problem and the challenge, you know, and weathering those storms. So yeah, like building up those skills and talking about the things that have worked and tweaking them, maybe sharpening those skills or figuring out new tools. Granted, you know, the ability to come into a space and just have a space to say things that you can't, for whatever reason, bring elsewhere. Not that that's bad, not that like you're wrong for quote unquote not wanting to burden people in your life because this is the other nuance of that discussion is like, I can't talk about this. And people say, of course you can. It's like, well, no, you can't really talk about anything to anybody. You need to do that safely. I think you have to. I think we should have that discussion too.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, I think that's a really important discussion. So when we talk about reducing stigma, yeah, we want people to be able to talk about issues, their mental health. But not everybody will be receptive. Not everybody will be able to take the information you're providing and deal with it in a way that's helpful and useful to you. So you do need to be picky about who you share that with. And what are the elements that would indicate this person's receptive?
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Are they, are they listening? Are they paying attention? Are they safe? Are they not judging me?
Katherine Hurtig
That's a really good point. Yeah. The stigma reduction. It's not just about removing all, all inhibition when it comes to mental health. It's knowing who you can talk to.
Joel Zimmerman
Exactly. Knowing who you can talk to, who are the right people. Because again, the initial discussions and the initial attitudes or themes that kind of come up is, we talked about like the fix it. But the other one I think is, I don't want to burden anybody. I don't want to burden anybody with this. And again, this is not unique to men by any means. But that, you know, somebody may be listening to a podcast like this or seeing a heading on Instagram that says, you know, you should be able to talk about your feelings. People … It's taken out of context because you assume that that means I can talk to anything about anybody and I should. But then when you do that and it blows up in your face because you picked the wrong person, it's your responsibility to be vulnerable, but it's also your responsibility to decide who is safe to be vulnerable with. And especially the highest kind of prevalence of this, I think, is when we're talking about men in domestic violence situations. Both people who have used domestic violence or have experienced domestic violence were preaching this idea of you should be able to be vulnerable with yourself. But you have to make sure that the people, places, or person that you're being vulnerable with are appropriate.
Sarah Rosenfeld
And that's really where sometimes the role of the counsellor comes in, right? The therapist can help you determine, oh, this person would be appropriate, or this person wouldn't be appropriate. What are the conditions? What are the indicators that tell me this person will be receptive to that information? What are the indicators that tell me they wouldn't be receptive? You know, in lots of different contexts, you have to kind of know your audience. You know, you have to know who the recipient of the information is, and you have to know how potentially that information could be utilized. And so this is, I think, what happens is people take things as a blanket statement, and that can then be problematic. So then it's really important to work on that to kind of know, okay. And then it gets even more nuanced than that. Somebody could be actually a great person to go to, but reading them that day, they've had a bad day. They're giving off behavioral indicators. They're kind of being sharp or curt or not as open and receptive. That would not be a good day to go and approach that person when normally they'd be a person you could talk to.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure.
Sarah Rosenfeld
So it's also being able to notice, observe, pay attention.
Joel Zimmerman
Taking responsibility for, yeah, the right person might be a great person in general, but, you know, on this topic, they're not the right person. Or at this time, I can tell that they're not the right person. Or I'm not able to, again, step into that space and keep my head on. You know, I might, you know, want to talk about this and I might want to talk about this with you. But I know that if I try and bring it up at the level that I'm at right now, it's not going to be helpful. Right. So how we quote unquote unburden ourselves and how we go around this idea of like burdening other people and not wanting to put ourselves on other people. That's a really challenging sentiment that I think everybody can relate with. Right. We pick and choose who we talk to and what we talk about. And we should. That's actually really, really healthy that we set those boundaries and those expectations with ourselves and others. But again, understanding the way to navigate that. I think it's an overgeneralized kind of statement, but that's what we're talking about here.
Katherine Hurtig
Before we wrap it, is there anything that I haven't touched on that we really should?
Joel Zimmerman
I hear us talking about, A, accessing mental health in general and the common things that, reasons why it would be difficult to step into these spaces. And also the common things that we do talk about, the things that we do here. And yeah, the kind of commonalities of counselling for maybe men, but in general. I hear a lot of those themes.
Katherine Hurtig
So a question for both of you. What is something, what's one or two things that you wish more men knew about coming to counselling, about getting help, about making these changes?
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think that it's okay, that it doesn't have to be forever. It doesn't have to be about your whole life. That it can be time limited. It can be the jumping off point for other things for you that you hadn't thought about before.
Katherine Hurtig
What about like the meaning behind it? Because I would think that there might be that idea. Like if I admit I need help, it means X, Y, Z about me.
Joel Zimmerman
Well, if you admit that your car needs an oil change, does that mean that you're a bad driver? Right. So you're right. Like I think that I hear where you're going for is that, yeah, just because you come into counselling doesn't mean you're bad, doesn't mean you're broken, doesn't mean you're weak. I think it takes a lot of courage to face a challenge and say, I would like some help on this, or I might be in over my head. I think that's a sign of strength to be able to kind of do that.
Sarah Rosenfeld
And I'd just go back to what we said before. You don't have to necessarily advertise this to everybody. You can share it with the people that you think will be able to receive that information.
Katherine Hurtig
That's very true.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Again, we're not saying this is a public service announcement that you tell everybody you're going to counselling. You get to decide if you share that, with whom you share that, when you share that, so that it can be a private thing if you want it to be. It can be that you're an ambassador for men's mental health if you choose that. But it's not.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, there's a difference between like being ashamed of something and hiding it and….
Joel Zimmerman
Broadcasting it to the world.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Joel Zimmerman
Letting everybody know.
Sarah Rosenfeld
And there's a lot of variability there. So I would just say you get to decide that.
Joel Zimmerman
I'll also add from a practical component, I think it's important that people understand counselling is a service. That means that you should be able to get what you want out of it. And you, just like any other service, you're allowed to shop around for it. You're responsible for if you're not having a good time or if it's not doing what you want it to do, to speak up about that and go and do something different. You know, vote with your feet kind of thing. You know, one bad negative therapeutic experience does not mean it'll always be like that. And studies do show that when people have negative experiences in counselling, it decreases their likelihood to return to counselling.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure.
Joel Zimmerman
But really good counselling can be hard to find sometimes, and it's your responsibility. You should go and find somebody that you gel with. And that might mean firing a couple therapists on your way to get to that one service that was really meaningful to you. And that takes a little bit of patience. And, yeah, it's not easy to do.
Katherine Hurtig
One question around that quickly before we wrap up. So I know that we really emphasize this idea of feedback and counsellors getting feedback from their clients. How do you encourage that? Because I know that that can be an uncomfortable experience if, like you're saying, you know, you want to not shop around, but like you said, get what you want out of the service. So how do you encourage your clients to give that feedback to say, hey, what you're doing isn't working. This process isn't what I thought it would be.
Sarah Rosenfeld
I don't think it always comes across that way. So in the language that you just use there, I think sometimes it's this has been really, really helpful, but I need a deeper exploration of X, Y and Z. And that's been missing.
Katherine Hurtig
OK.
Sarah Rosenfeld
So it's not always, sometimes I find that it's a thematic thing of, yeah, this has been really, really useful, but I actually need, and I think it would be helpful for me to explore this more. Can we go in that direction a little bit more? So your course correcting, it's not necessarily always in each and every single session, you're getting concrete, specific feedback. Sometimes that does happen.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Sarah Rosenfeld
And then you can adjust, right? I needed homework today and I didn't get that, I really would like that. We're talking about this. I really need to be talking about that. Exactly. But sometimes it's more of a thematic. I find these really, really helpful, but I think there's a deeper piece that I need to explore here with you. And can we kind of move in that direction? And do you think that would be helpful? And when could we do that? And how could we do that?
Katherine Hurtig
So it is more subtle and it's what you as a counsellor…
Joel Zimmerman
Yeah, we always just want to be helpful. Like, is this helpful? And sometimes they say no. Yeah, that's great feedback. We're like, okay, so what am I missing? Sometimes it is wait and see. Okay, you've given me some stuff to think about. I'm going to see how this applies and I'll be back. I think everyone gives feedback. We just want that feedback to be before they leave. And I mean that generally, right? People are going to give her feedback when they decide to not continue counselling, not come back. And that's understandable. Maybe they got exactly what they needed or maybe what they got didn't help. I just want, we as counsellors just want to know that before you leave so that we can try and make that amends or try and shift or do something different. So the encouragement is to lean in and to say and speak up really for yourself to say it's like, hey, this is not quite right. And counsellors who are trained in receiving that feedback and eliciting it will be more than grateful to accept that and will go to the end of the earth to make sure that what they're giving is a valuable service.
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Thank you.
Joel Zimmerman
This was awesome. Thank you.
Katherine Hurtig
It was. Excellent talk.
You've been listening to living fully a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast thank you for tuning in this episode was produced by, Luiza Campos, Manuel Montano, Jenna Forbes and by me Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Joel Zimmerman and Sarah Rosenfeld. To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favorite podcast app.
Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling to anyone in Alberta with no waitlist and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com and CounsellingAlberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the U.S., seek help from your general medical practitioner.