Season 3, Episode 2: Setting Meaningful Counselling Goals
Why are goals such an important part of counselling? In this episode, social worker Carmen Sadoway helps us understand how setting meaningful goals can give you direction and clarity, no matter what you’re going through—whether it’s depression, anxiety, grief, stress, or just feeling stuck.
We’ll chat about:
Why goals can act like a compass, pointing you toward the changes you want to make.
How counsellors work with you to figure out what goals feel right for you.
Real-life examples of short-term and long-term goals for different challenges.
What to do along the way when things don’t go perfectly.
If you're feeling stuck or unsure about where to begin, this episode offers guidance on creating goals that are realistic, empowering, and aligned with the life you want to live.
4 key takeaways on setting meaningful counselling goals
Goals provide direction and focus:
Goals act like a compass, giving your counselling sessions purpose and clarity. They help you figure out what’s most important to you and set a course toward the changes you want to see. Having that focus can make the process feel more intentional and less overwhelming.Start where you are:
It’s okay if you don’t have clear goals when you first come to counselling—that’s completely normal! Counsellors will meet you where you are and work with you to uncover what’s meaningful for you. Together, you’ll figure out what’s helpful to focus on as you navigate your unique challenges.Personal values as a compass:
Your values play a huge role in shaping meaningful goals. When your goals align with what you truly care about, they feel more purposeful and are easier to stick with. Values can guide you toward the kind of person you want to be and how you want to show up in the world.Flexibility and self-compassion are key:
Progress in counselling isn’t always a straight line, and that’s okay. Celebrate small wins along the way, and be kind to yourself when setbacks happen—they’re part of the process. Staying flexible allows you to adjust your goals as you grow and learn more about yourself.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully. Each episode is a chance to talk about mental health in a way that's simple, honest, and helpful. We'll share stories, tips, and tools to help you feel supported, and feel your best. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig. One of the best ways to get the most out of counselling is having a goal or sense of direction, whether it's something you want to change, or a way you want to feel. In today's episode, I chat with social worker, Carmen Sadoway, about why setting goals matter, how to figure out what goals might work for you, and what to do if you're feeling stuck and don't know where to start.
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A big part of counselling and, you know, to get the most out of it, is actually setting goals. And that's gonna that's what we're chatting about today. I'm here with Carmen Sadoway. Thanks so much for chatting with me. Did I get that?
Carmen Sadoway
Yes. Yes. Perfect. Thank you. Yeah. And my pleasure. I'm happy to be here. I like this topic a lot, so happy to talk about it with you.
Katherine Hurtig
Excellent. So you haven't been on the podcast before. So welcome. Um,
Carmen Sadoway
Thank you.
Katherine Hurtig
Let's, yeah, tell us a bit about yourself.
Carmen Sadoway
So I'm a staff counsellor at Calgary Counselling Centre and, um, my, uh, I have a Master's in Social Sork, uh, from Carleton University. I've been in the field since 2012, so been around for a little while now. Yeah, I've worked in different kinds of settings and organizations, seen all different kinds of issues come up in counselling and all different kinds of goals in my career. So yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Awesome. Well, I'm excited to chat with you today. Yeah. So, you know, let's start right from the beginning. Why is goal setting such an important part of the counselling process?
Carmen Sadoway
So goals really help us focus the work. They end up being a kind of a compass for counselling conversations to come back to. And it's something that we can kind of always just keep checking in on. How are we doing? Is what we're working on in counselling hitting the mark for what is important to you and what changes you want to be seeing in your life? And when we're clear on goals, we're clear on direction of what we're doing in counselling. We know where we're going and also why we want... why we're doing what we're doing, and why we want to get where we're going.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. So, yeah, how does having a clear goal or kind of destination, how does that help clients see progress?
Carmen Sadoway
Mm hmm. So when goals are when we try to make them really concrete and tangible, like real things that you'd like to see yourself doing in your life or real changes that you want to see yourself making. It just really helps to stay focused, not just on feeling better right away, but doing, or living better in some way.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Carmen Sadoway
And when it's framed as a as an action, it's also something that we can observe and measure and evaluate. And then we can see how sometimes by little actions in service of the goal, we can move in that direction of where we want to go. And then we can also look back and also see how far we've come.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. So I'm sure it's not uncommon. I mean, I can speak from experience with counselling where I've gone in and I get that question from a counsellor. Like, what's your goal? What do you want to get out of this? And I don't really have a clear answer. Like, I know I want to feel different, feel better, feel less anxious, less depressed, all that. But a goal, like, I don't really have that in my head. So, I mean, can counselling still be effective if someone isn't sure where to start?
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah, it can be sort of intimidating and like kind of some pressure, like, what's your goal? What are you working on? And it's actually really common that people come into counselling not initially knowing what their goals are. And that's totally okay. Sometimes people come to counselling because they're just going through something really really stressful that they didn't anticipate, and it's impacting them in a big way.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Carmen Sadoway
And they just come in initially needing to talk it through, process it, vent about it, tell the story of it, and I do think that's really important and meaningful.
Katherine Hurtig
So that venting process, that is helpful?
Carmen Sadoway
It can be part of the part of the process I would say I mean we need to find out what's going on in somebody's life and the impact that it's having on them to really understand where they are in the moment and how that might inform where they want to go. So that, that is important. Um, but also I think, you know, sometimes when people are going through hard times, people's priorities and values can sometimes get really clear and crystallized. Like sometimes we talk to people who are... have gone through a loss, you know, if you've ever like lost someone that you've loved and when we're thinking about the impact of that person on our life, sometimes our values and priorities become really clear. We're really clear on what's important to us. And sometimes when that happens, the goals for things to do differently in our own life can naturally follow. So sometimes we just kind of need to understand and take stock of what's happening before we kind of land on a direction.
Katherine Hurtig
So, like as a counsellor, do you often help clients, kind of, not create a goal, but help them figure out what their goal could be.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah, that's a big part of what we do for sure, because it is so common that people don't come in thinking in those terms necessarily. “I'm only going to go into counselling if I have a goal.”
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
So that is part of what we're good at. But also just... everyone comes into counselling for so many different reasons.
Katherine Hurtig
That's so true.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah. Some people come in, they've got a clear idea of something that they want to change in their life and they're just ready to like get to work on it. Other folks arrive with just sort of like an unclear sense of something's not sitting well with them in their life. That's really common and normal too. Some people come in because they're coping with some kind of challenging symptom of stress, or a mental health issue and they want some ideas on how to cope better. But I think a message that I just want to say to everybody is whatever brings people in, we meet you where you're at. And we work together as a team and we collaborate to figure out together what's going to be useful for us to talk about or focus on together.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point to make because it's, you know, it could be so many things that brings someone in. And... the idea of setting a goal around that, it might not always be super obvious. Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah. It often isn't, at first. So we do take a little bit of time figuring out, you know, where things are and where you want to go. Like I said, figuring out that direction. Sometimes people arrive feeling a bit lost in some way. And so our goal as counsellors is to kind of help facilitate a process so that together we can kind of line up on a direction that's going to feel good for you in your life.
Katherine Hurtig
How do you establish that balance between kind of focusing on a goal and working towards that, and simply kind of, you know... like we said, venting or exploring emotions and... you know, talking things through? Does that make sense?
Carmen Sadoway
Yes, definitely. And I thought a lot about this question when you had to send it to me ahead of time. And, you know, I really think that there's a place in therapy for tending to the relationship we have with ourselves, understanding our emotions and really tending to our inner life, as I might put it. Because some folks have been bereft of that for various reasons in their life. And so learning to identify our emotional experiences and learn to notice and name our experience, it really can be tremendously important and empowering to people. And I actually think it can be really foundational for personal change. When we don't know who we are, what we're feeling, it's hard to know where we're going. So I do think that's an important part of the counselling journey, is spending time with your own experience, telling the story of it, making sense of it, and really kind of doing that inward look.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
But I do think that we also... we also live in the world. You know, we we interact with our environment, we're social creatures, we thrive when we're connected and doing things with purpose and care. And personally, I just think good therapy strikes a balance between helping people tend to their inner life as well as their outer life. So good goals, I think, should reflect both our inner values and our personal experience, but also touch on who we want to be in the world, how we want to show up, what difference we want to make, what legacy we want to have in our life. And I think we feel our most authentic when we're acting on goals that are really meaningful to us in a deep and personal way.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. Yeah, because one person's goal could be vastly different from someone else's.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah, they usually are, for sure. But we need to, you know, in addition to like... really knowing ourselves in that way, but connecting it with ways that we... we connect to others and being in the world. And so I think therapy often is this simultaneous process of tending to our inner life and connecting us to the life we want to live out there in the world.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Carmen Sadoway
So it's kind of both. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
And then as you were, yeah, as we've been talking about this, I kind of visualized it. I mean, when I hear goals, I just kind of think like setting the destination, and then, you know, planning out the trip step by step, but it really, it's not always like that. Hey, like it's not linear, and sometimes you're going to have to go back and revisit things and... yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah, it's true. And I think sometimes I... I mean, sometimes we can think about it like a destination and we'll say like, want to look at what we want the end of the journey to look like. And sometimes that can be a good place to start. But I think more often I think about it less of a destination and more of a direction. So, yeah, you know, there's lots of things that we're always working on that maybe we never fully arrive, but we might commit to a valued direction because it feels right in terms of the way that we want to show up. It feels congruent for who we are as people.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
So I sometimes, yeah, I like that kind of valued direction as opposed to like, um... crossing the finish line. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Do you have any kind of examples? Like examples of goals that clients might have when they come in?
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah. Um... So there's, there's... there's lots. there's an infinite variety and they’re as diverse as all the people that we get to work with.
Katherine Hurtig
It’s true. Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah. And we always just want to make it, like tailor it to each individual. Each person is unique. Every person's life story is unique. So it has to be personal and specific and meaningful to each, each person, each individual. And I think also it's in general good to think about, um, setting goals, you know, less around what we don't want, but rather what we want.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Cause you're saying like, oh, I don't want to, you know, of course we, no one wants to feel anxious or stressed or anything, but then it's like, okay, let's reframe it into what you do want.
Carmen Sadoway
Totally.
Katherine Hurtig
I remember, yeah. In early days of my counselling, it was exactly that. Like, I don't want to feel this sad anymore, but I don't know what that looks like. Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
Haha, right. Right. So some examples, you’ve asked for some short-term goal examples. So, um, someone for instance, might say they want to learn how to communicate better with their spouse, or with loved ones. Um, maybe they want to work on making an important decision about a job or making a lifestyle change. Um, maybe they want to better manage anxiety so that they can better enjoy the time with their kids.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Carmen Sadoway
Or maybe they want to learn how to cope better with ADHD, so they're more focused at school. So there's... those are just a few of like kind of short term, but they're usually in the service of something larger, right? Like something meaningful that's a part of the big picture of their life.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. And kind of on that, like, are there specific goals that are better for certain challenges? Like if someone's dealing with... you know, anxiety, are they going to set kind of different goals than if they're dealing with trauma?
Carmen Sadoway
So it is always just so individual and unique to each person. But based on my experience, um, working with people and identifying certain goals that are kind of a match for a certain challenge, like sometimes there can be sort of some general themes that I consider.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Carmen Sadoway
So for instance... for those of us who... experience anxiety, we often try to cope by trying to avoid negative feelings in some way.
Katherine Hurtig
Mhm, yeah hahaha.
Carmen Sadoway
So it could be like, we're avoiding a, we're declining a social invitation, or we're over preparing for an exam. These are all kinds of avoidance kinds of coping. And so a general goal or theme might be instead of helping people avoid more, we want to help people approach what's being avoided.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Carmen Sadoway
So I think about that with anxiety. For depression, sometimes we, when we're feeling depressed, we tend to cope with things that sometimes give us short-term relief, but they end up sort of... de-energizing us.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Carmen Sadoway
So for that one, sometimes we need to look for things that re-energize us instead, and kind of give us a sense of aliveness. I'll just give one more example. Sometimes when people are working with addiction. People sometimes talk about addiction as a disease of disconnection. So a theme might be that like as an antidote is a goal of connection as opposed to disconnection. So there's sometimes like these, there's these general themes that I think about, but whatever it is, you know, whatever a goal often involves, um, sometimes some kind of rebalancing or recalibrating so that we can get back to functioning well and just-.
Katherine Hurtig
I like that... recalibrating.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah. Yeah, and just kind of getting back to the life that you want, in terms of like good quality of life.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. I guess, yeah, it's kind of difficult to talk about it so generally when, when it is such an individual thing. It's not like we can say, this is the goal you should set. If you, you know, are having trouble in your relationship and this is, yeah. So...
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah, it's always very specific to the situation or the person and their, yeah, their context.
Katherine Hurtig
So you talked about how the process of counselling is really collaborative. So when I think, I mean, that might be a surprise for some people to hear, like, I think it's not uncommon for, for someone to think like, you know, I'm going to go into counselling, I'm going to tell this person my problems and they're going to tell me how to fix it. So what is it actually like? What's that collaborative process?
Carmen Sadoway
So counsellors are... they’re really good at asking people questions. So our job isn't to necessarily give advice or lay it all out for like okay here's step one, two, three, four, five. We do that together as a team.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
But you know first of all with asking people questions we really help people consider just various factors and just ask questions to help people get concrete and focused on their goal. I really do see it as a team effort. Like we help kind of explore all the corners and consider all the angles. But also at the end of the day, it's our clients who have the right to decide what they're going to do if they want to do it, what pace, how and when.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally.
Carmen Sadoway
So I kind of use the metaphor sometimes as like the counsellor can be like a consultant or a coach. We're sort of on the sidelines, maybe giving feedback, encouragement, helping kind of fine tune things. But the client is the player on the field.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that makes sense.
Carmen Sadoway
Kind of getting out there and trying different things.
Katherine Hurtig
Ooh, I really like that analogy. Hahaha
Carmen Sadoway
Hahaha. And they're also the ones who are, you know, receiving the feedback and thinking about how to, like, take it in and put it into practice. But, yeah, I do see it as kind of a team effort.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Okay, so how can you as a counsellor help the clients you're working with who are feeling stuck or unsure about their goals?
Carmen Sadoway
It's so easy to get stuck.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
You know, and I think, in fact, that's often what brings people into counselling is that they're feeling stuck in some way with their goals and they aren't sure how to get going or get unstuck. Um... so I think it's important that we just spend some time getting curious about what's getting a person stuck, and asking good questions about the goals, like... coming back to how important or meaningful are those goals actually to the person? Um, sometimes we ask, you know, are they setting the goal for somebody else, or for themselves?
Katherine Hurtig
Oh yeah. I bet that comes up a lot. Yeah
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah. Cause that's- we need to reflect on that and how that might be affecting their motivation for it. Um, and then just looking at the why, like, why is it something that they want to change, or something that they want to work on. But I think sometimes there can just be like legitimate barriers for working on a goal. And sometimes we just have to do some like problem solving. So I kind of have the example of, let's say there's a mom who, and she has a goal of like wanting to practice piano because that's something that's been part of her identity and she really loves and makes her feel alive, but she rarely has childcare. Or she rarely has a house to herself. So there needs to be sometimes some like problem solving around the barrier. Yeah. Some other work that's needed before she can take action on the thing that she most wants to do. And sometimes I think it's just good to think about in a realistic and practical way, is now the right time to pursue this goal?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
Or to pursue a change in some way. So for instance, like if somebody is facing a health crisis, it may not be the best time to think about a career change or pursuing dreams of travel or something.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
So sometimes we work with people and figuring out just some of those like practical logistical kinds of things. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. That makes sense. And I mean, I'm sure a lot of people have heard kind of heard of the system of setting goals where they're “SMART”. You know, like specific and measurable and... attainable. I think it is... Realistic, timely. There we go!
Carmen Sadoway
Wow! Good job!
[laughter]
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And I mean, it's easy to kind of throw out a goal that's big, like that, you know, something huge that you want... or something that is not that specific. Like I want to be happier. So how do you work with people to kind of make sure their goals are realistic and still challenging enough to help them grow.
Carmen Sadoway
Right. Yeah, I often think it's important with whatever we're doing in therapy or just in life in general if we're working towards a change or a goal, got to consider how can we best set ourselves up for success? How do we design a plan for change that keeps that forward momentum, keeps us engaged, keeps us committed? And I think there's ways that we can do that and be strategic about it. Um... so sometimes that's figuring out the right pacing and making changes – of, of making changes, uh taking on new challenges. But one of my colleagues was recently talking about the idea of like setting up small wins.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
You know, like getting some... being strategic and getting going with something to get some traction. But it really can also then kind of contribute to a sense of confidence and pride, which then kind of helps with that momentum. You want to keep going. If you've had some small wins, it feels good. And sometimes too, like when we're working with fears and phobias, for instance, we'll use like something called exposure therapy and we might use a fear ladder, which essentially means beginning to approach and confront our fears, but in like a paced, phased way that the client has control over. So it's step by step. We start with something challenging, but something that person feels is doable and manageable and they tackle that.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay
Carmen Sadoway
And then once they kind of get going with that, then they can move on to the next step that's a little bit harder.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. If you see that you, you can handle that one thing, then it would, does it give you confidence to handle the next challenging thing? Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah! That's the idea is it builds confidence. It builds that sense of competence and then you're learning all along the way and you're building off each kind of level of learning to kind of help you help you get there and we're always just sort of striving for something that's just beyond what we currently can do.
Katherine Hurtig
Now those small wins - are those satisfying enough to get someone to move forward? I could see like I mean I practice it with myself, but I can kind of picture that it might not be enough? If that makes sense? Like okay well I all I did was get out of bed today that doesn't mean anything like... if it's someone who has like depression for example.
Carmen Sadoway
Right
Katherine Hurtig
So, I mean how do you frame that with someone to get them to celebrate... like the things that are hard?
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Do you know what I mean?
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah I do. Yeah because I think sometimes it'd be easy to kind of like cheapen it for ourselves. Yeah, just downplay it. Like, oh, big deal. I just, yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
And so sometimes that's something we can work on in counselling together, like looking at what your self-talk is around your goals.
Katherine Hurtig
That's true.
Carmen Sadoway
But I think also, again, when it comes back to less about the ultimate destination and more about a direction, if it comes back to a position of values, what it says about you, what it says about your character, your strengths, how you want to show up in the world, even just getting out of bed, you can see how that's aligned with a value system that you can feel good about. So maybe it's not, you know, the most dramatic thing or anything, but we can kind of reflect on, you know what, um,maybe it was just a small thing, but it was aligned with the person that I want to be in the direction that I'm going. So I can hang my hat on that today.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And I can see how hearing somebody else kind of say back to you, your accomplishments, that it would just resonate differently. Like, I mean, I know I can be really hard on myself when it comes to work, but if I hear somebody else kind of say back to me the things I've accomplished, it's like, oh, actually, you know, hearing it in that way, that makes...
Carmen Sadoway
Haha, it's like, oh, well, when you say it like that!
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. It seems, yeah, better than you make it out to be in your head.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah! Totally! I think that's a good, that's a good point. Like we so rarely make meaningful changes or work on goals in a vacuum. Like, you know, we do it with others bearing witness, with others supporting us, with people in our corner, like cheering us on or giving us tips and feedback. It's done in a... in a social environment that I think we can try to, we can leverage that to kind of support the... movement.
Katherine Hurtig
How can, yeah, that made me think, like how can people use, you know, the idea of accountability and... a support system to kind of help their goals? Like, I mean, outside of the counselling room.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah. I mean, there's a thing called public accountability. So you're more likely to follow through on something if you tell somebody that you're going to do it.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
So if you just keep it silent, you don't tell anyone, you're going to be more likely to let yourself off the hook and be like, eh, I just won't bother. But if you tell someone, no, I'm going to do this thing. And even if you ask them, ask me about it on the weekend or whatever, you're just more likely to follow through on it. So I think sometimes when we know this about kind of human psychology, we can use that to our benefit. And again, I see that as like a way that we can set ourselves up for success by doing things like that intentionally that will just promote the likelihood that will follow through.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, anything that you can do for yourself to, yeah, to make it easier to accomplish your goals for sure.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah, exactly.
Katherine Hurtig
This concept of values has come up a lot in this conversation. And... I don't know, this always interests me because, I don't know, I just find it hard to wrap my head around like, how do you identify what your values are? Like there are things that, you know, that... like ways that I like to behave or ways that I like to be treated or things that I, you know, think are good. But how do I know if that's a value and if it's a meaningful value?
Carmen Sadoway
Mhm. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
I mean, that could be a whole other conversation.
[laughter]
Skipping whole notes here.
Carmen Sadoway
No, but it's true. I think sometimes when we just throw out that word and don't clarify what we mean, it can be a little bit confusing. Because a value is more of a directional thing rather than a destination. And it's different than a goal.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
So I'll give an example of, if I have a value in having a creative life. Like I value creativity in life because it says something about the human imagination and human potential and things like that. So it's kind of like a broader philosophical kind of thing. But it's different than a goal. if I want to set a goal that's in line with that value, my goal might be I'm going to practice piano at least three times a week.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
So it's kind of, it's a... it's to differentiate kind of the... action as opposed to a characteristic, a character trait, a belief system, a philosophical, kind of, outlook on life and the meaning of life and what's important.
To me, values are really... it's really what it comes down to. Because if our goals aren't connected to our values in life, or what's just personally meaningful to us about what makes for a good life, then we're just probably not going to get that far on the goal. Or it's not going to feel that satisfying to accomplish.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
And I use that word compass before I think values end up being a compass and sort of guiding us in uncharted territory and rough waters. And they guide us to do something difficult in spite of the anxiety, in spite of the barriers that are there.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. There's a reason behind it, yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
Exactly. Values make- give a reason to the goal. They make the goal worth doing. Even if it's not a guaranteed success, you can still feel good about doing it if it's values-driven.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah. I have some good questions that sometimes we ask people that kind of can help clarify this sort of idea.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah! Yeah, what are they?
[laughter]
Carmen Sadoway
Um, and you know, I mean, we can talk about it in terms of value system, but like, I just think about it in terms of like, what are your beliefs about what makes for a good life?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. I think that makes it a lot more understandable. Like everyone, I think, has thoughts on that, you know?
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah. I mean, most people are thinking about like, what is a good quality of life look like or, you know, life satisfaction, which is different than just being happy. Right. It's like about like, what is, what does it mean to feel satisfied with what we're doing with our time? So sometimes we'll ask people, I'll ask people, “in five years, what do you want to look back on and feel proud that you committed and contributed to something in some way? In five years, what would you regret not having done?”. So sometimes these questions kind of clarify like this idea of like life priorities.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
What's important? Um... here's another one. When you think about the big picture of your life, what do you want to say you stood for? What do you want to be known for in terms of what your life was all about or what mattered to you? And then the last one, when you die, I know it's a bit morbid, but when you die, what would you want others to write on your tombstone or write in an obituary about you?
Katherine Hurtig
That's funny I was on a previous episode, recently, we kind of talked about the same thing.
Carmen Sadoway
Okay yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
So it just gets you to kind of look back. Like how do you want to show up how do you want to live your life.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah there's sort of it ends up being sort of like these existential questions about what do I want to do with my time here?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. It's got me very reflective!
[laughter]
Carmen, how can goals kind of evolve during the counselling process?
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah, they do... they can change. And they do evolve, because it's just natural sometimes that in the midst of therapy, life changes. Our priorities can shift and all of a sudden, you know, our focus is on something else that just feels more important. That's natural. That's life sometimes. But I think it's also just good to keep an eye on whether or not we're changing our goals kind of frequently.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Carmen Sadoway
Because if we, you know, sometimes it happens if we lose traction or don't get a sense of progress in a goal, it can be really easy just to like avoid it, minimize why it was important in the first place, or just like forget about it altogether.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Carmen Sadoway
So we want to change focus on goals in counselling. sometimes it's good to just explore the reason or the timing of the change. Talk a little bit about like the kind of the costs or benefits of putting aside the original goal in favor of a new one. So sometimes we end up doing kind of like a goal overhaul just depending on the person's life and what they're, you know, what's happening or what they're working on. And other times there's just like some adjustments we make with the original goal to try to find ways, together, again, in a collaborative way, how can how can we try to make this more realistic for you, more doable, sometimes making it more pleasurable or meaningful? And actually- I thought of you, Katherine,
[laughter]
Because you ran a half marathon.
Katherine Hurtig
I did.
Carmen Sadoway
A little while ago. Maybe you've done more than one, right?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I've run two.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah. So I was thinking about you because I remember in the last one, like obviously you had this goal that you said, OK, I'm going to train for this. It's really hard to do to, you know, to train for a half... a half marathon. But then in the last one, you also did some fundraising for a family.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah. So I think about it as like, so you had like this great goal in the first place, and I'm sure you had your own reasons and values of wanting to do it. But also sometimes when we add in this element of like, how can - is there a way that I can also make it more meaningful to me and to other people?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
It helps with the motivation to really do it. It probably helped you. Like when I'm going out for my training run, I'm thinking of this family.
Katherine Hurtig
Oh, totally.
Carmen Sadoway
So I think sometimes when we make these little additions or adjustments
Katherine Hurtig
Like, kind of, branches off of a goal tree, haha.
Carmen Sadoway
Yes exactly! And then it's like, okay, you're being congruent in more than one way with the ways that you want to show up.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah that's true, because it's like we have more than one value, so...
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah!
Katherine Hurtig
How can we... merge our goals together. Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah I love that.
Katherine Hurtig
And like talking about that I can see how if someone isn't sensing progress with their goal,they might want to... they might want to switch it up, or, you know, give up altogether. So how is progress kind of tracked during counselling?
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah it can be really demoralizing and frustrating for people when, you know, when that happens. And sometimes we just end up feeling really... down. We sometimes have the urge to give up on the goal or like distract away from it. We end up being pretty hard on ourselves.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
And so that's, you know, that's often a point where people come into counselling because that might be happening. But I think it's also just good to keep in mind that slips and relapses can sometimes be part of the process when people are working on making really big changes in their life. Um... and so we, you know, we don't want to... we want to help people not beat themselves up about that, but to work with it.
Katherine Hurtig
I think we really need to go easy on ourselves, especially if it's like, I don't know, any change, really, any behavior change, it's not like going to be perfect at every step.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah, no, but it's true, right? Because if we're, if we have a slip or it's not, we're not getting there as fast as we would have thought, we would have hoped we would have.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
If we end up being really tough on ourselves, it can be very demoralizing and justifying for just giving up on it. But I think, you know, to kind of normalize it, just to say, yeah, this is expected. It's hard.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally. Yeah. We need to expect that of ourselves. Like it's not always going to be an easy path.
Carmen Sadoway
No. And it's not, you know, that's true for everybody when they're working on something hard. So just to kind of normalize it and then to look at, is there a way that we can kind of get curious about it, and maybe a way to, to learn from it. So if I had to slip in my goal, just taking a good look non-judgmentally, but with curiosity to say, okay, what factors maybe contributed to that? Um, and importantly, okay, for next time, how can I plan to cope ahead with those kinds of, um, challenges in the future or how can I better plan for expected or unexpected challenges that arise during those process of change.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
Or, you know, thinking about, okay, for next time, what other supports or resources are going to help bolster me up and get me back on track? Who are the people in my corner? And how can I bring them in right now? Because this is a tough moment. I think there's lots of ways that we can work with like the tough moments to actually make it stronger.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, this reminds me of my stepson. And when he was younger, he was really creative and really into drawing and art and things like that. And he'd watch a lot of YouTube videos, which was great on one hand, like he's learning from these people, but he would get frustrated if what he was doing didn't turn out like theirs. And I don't know, that's what kind of bugs me about social media and stuff because they only show you the end results. And I would try to relate it. I'm like, you're not seeing the hours and hours of practice. And the... mistakes and the, yeah, the progress along the way. You're just seeing this one portion.
Carmen Sadoway
That's right.
Katherine Hurtig
There's, he's seeing the destination, that he's not at yet. Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
And yeah, that can be really demoralizing. Like when we're, it's like that whole thing, it's unfair to compare, you know, like it's not, it can really demotivate people, I think.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah. If they're kind of using it the wrong way.
Katherine Hurtig
I like that. Just normalizing, acknowledging, like it's not always going to be smooth sailing, but it doesn't mean you're not moving in the right direction.
Carmen Sadoway
That's right. That's right. And even to expect, you know, expect that it's going to be hard. Expect that there's going to be times you want to give up.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
The more that we can kind of be real about that, the more we can make a plan for how we want to keep acting in line with our valued direction.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally. Yeah. Like, I don't know. I've said on this podcast before, like, so much about, like... through my running journey, I've learned so much about, like, my mental health and myself. And that was one of the things I'd learned along the way is, like, to expect hard runs. It's not like every run I do is going to be better than the last. Like, definitely not. So now going into a new training season, it's like I'm going to expect that there are going to be days where this run just feels awful.
Carmen Sadoway
Totally. And just to kind of accept that, that you'll still go out the next day or the next few days or whatever, but that's just going to be part of the process.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. Yeah. So, it sounds like, you know, we've got to be, we've got to be kind of flexible in setting these goals. And especially if we're saying it's not a concrete destination, that it is more of a direction. So how, you know, how do you encourage flexibility? How do, you know, people working towards goals kind of practice flexibility?
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah, I think pretty much all of the time flexibility trumps rigidity. It's better to be flexible. We can be less stressed about it. We can look at more options for different ways to go about something. We can be a little bit more open, open to ideas. Yeah, and I think it just matters less about the destination that we want to get to, but that direction. And I think when we kind of keep that in mind, there's just many ways that we can be flexible and still changing while still staying true to the overall direction we'd like to be going.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
But yeah, I think your question of like, how do we be flexible? Because it's sometimes easier said than done. I think sometimes we don't realize how rigid our expectations might be or how much pressure we're putting on ourselves about it. So, I think talking about it with other people can be really helpful to kind of get some different perspectives, different ideas about like, you know, different ways to go about a goal or just kind of getting feedback on how well you're doing. Sometimes people do these things, and they aren't getting that support and they feel like it's never enough, but other people are like, “oh my God, you've done so much, you're amazing!” So just like not cutting that part of it off.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
But I think a big part of it is like that, that self-talk and like relationship with ourself, you know, like if we have really rigid beliefs of unless I do this, it means I'm going to be a failure or something, that can really trip people up and that's definitely something we work on in, in counselling to see if we can adjust some of those rules that we set for ourself and these, these really firm expectations that we think that they should be motivating us, but they end up being kind of more demoralizing or putting this unnecessary pressure that ends up being kind of counteractive.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. I'm going to bring up another thing about running and you let me know if it kind of applies, cause it made me think of it. So like, for example, when I'm training for a half marathon, I do have, you know, a rough time goal. Like I'd want to complete it in a certain amount of time. But then I also have like these side, like sub goals. It's like, okay, you know, maybe I don't finish in that time, but, you know, at least, you know, want to finish without walking during the run. Like I want to run straight through or like, do you know what I mean? Like, is it, do you work with clients and set kind of multiple goals around the same thing? Is it that, is it that explicit? Like, does that make sense?
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah, yeah. You know, I think about, I haven't run as much as you have done a little bit, but yeah, like for some people, part of their options for being flexible and how they might complete a long run includes like a walk/run program and then other people it's just runs and people use like the watch and other people don't.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I know I just said the run all the way through, but I've never done it, I don't think.
Carmen Sadoway
Right. But I think it's just so good to be you know go into it thinking like yeah I might adjust my time as my training program goes along, I might adjust my expectations sometimes people who are doing lots of training they get injured it's like okay now I'm dealing with a strained hamstring or something? How do I need to adjust my, my approach or, you know, like my time?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's where the flexibility comes in.
Carmen Sadoway
Yeah. And if, cause then if you don't do that, then you just feel, it would just feel awful because it's like, wow, it's just, it's an all or nothing thinking. Right? And that's where people sometimes get into trouble where it just feels like a failure or something.
Katherine Hurtig
And I think, yeah, like the same kind of mindset can be applied to life. Like you can have this goal and direction, but you know, like you said, life, life happens around you and, you know, unexpected things can happen. So, you kind of got to work with ... yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
I actually love thinking about people running these long races because you think about like all of the different reasons, rationales, desires, values that are happening for each individual person. Like everyone comes to it with like their own history. Some people have had, you know, health crisis or some people have been really like making other kinds of life changes and it's symbolic to them of other, other things that they're doing in their life. So, I just feel that's so inspiring, but also, I'm so touched by, this is like slightly tangential, but I do feel like it's connected to goals because you think about, say someone's on a race and somebody trips.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
And then you see other runners stop and help them, right?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Carmen Sadoway
So, you see these moments of connection, they're in this together. There's this camaraderie and there's this connection of the human spirit. That is also part of like, so it's not just running to cross the finish line, it's something about the human spirit being how it kind of manifests on that stage of life. And then you have all the people cheering. And every time I see these people cheering, I just like I tear up because they're just like people are joining in like the spirit of like doing something hard and cheering each other on. And like so neat.
Katherine Hurtig
Like you see races like that. And I mean, yes, it's heartwarming to see people, you know, cheering on the sides, but you don't really understand how much that means until you run like that makes all the difference in the world. I remember my first marathon or not marathon, our first half marathon, my brother, he came like along the route and cheered me on at one point and it gave me such a boost. Like, honestly, it was like, a hit of caffeine or something, just seeing someone you care about cheering you on.
Carmen Sadoway
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, that's a good thing for this conversation about goals as well is like, it doesn't happen in a vacuum, it's not just about your inner life, it's about you being in the world with your friends, with your family and your community. I think when we involve others, it becomes all the more meaningful when we're like working on it.
Katherine Hurtig
Exactly. Yeah. Thank you so much for this conversation, Carmen.
Carmen Sadoway
Thank you so much. I think it's, to me, it's like an exciting topic because it's really about working with people on like what matters most to them. What makes for a good life? What are the priorities? And I think when we're having those kinds of conversations, it never feels superficial. It always feels like deeply personal and often inspiring. So, yeah, thanks for thinking of this topic and inviting me to talk about it with you.
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you.
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in. This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, Manuel Montano, Jenna Forbes, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Carmen Sadoway.
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favourite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling to anyone in Alberta with no waitlist and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com and counsellingalberta.com.
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