Season 3, Episode 16: Exploring Trauma and Its Impact
We often hear the word “trauma,” but what does it actually mean? In this episode, we talk with counsellor Ashley Enzie about what trauma is, how it can show up in our thoughts, emotions, and bodies, and why each person’s experience is unique. We cover common signs, the role of triggers, and ways to start building safety and support—whether you’re ready for counselling or just beginning to explore your experience.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully. Each episode is a chance to talk about mental health in a way that's simple, honest, and helpful. We'll share stories, tips, and tools to help you feel supported and feel your best.
I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig. Today, we're talking about trauma, what it is, how it shows up, and why it's different for everyone. Maybe you've heard the word a lot, but aren't quite sure what it really means. Or maybe you've been through something difficult, and you're wondering if it could be affecting you more than you realized. In this episode, we unpack what trauma can look like, how it impacts both the mind and body, and what support can look like. Whether that's counselling, self-care, or simply starting the conversation.
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Okay. Ashley Enzie, thank you so much for being here and talking with me today.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to have this conversation today.
Katherine Hurtig
So you haven’t been on the podcast before – welcome. We’re excited to have you. Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.
Ashley Enzie
So I’m a registered psychologist. I’ve been with Calgary Counselling Centre for a few years now in a couple of different positions. So I was a volunteer here at one point, I was a counselling intern, I spent a couple of years as a counselling resident, and finally I’ve been a counselling staff for about a year and a half now.
Katherine Hurtig
Amazing
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. In terms of my work, I like to think of myself as being a non-pathologizing, trauma-informed practitioner, and I particularly find myself interested in areas related to the nervous system, emotional regulation and attachment, all of which from my perspective become a really important consideration when we’re dealing with or exploring trauma.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So today we're talking about trauma. Now, that's a term that I think lately we've heard a lot about it, but I don't know if a lot of us understand fully what it really means. So can you kind of describe it in kind of simple terms?
Ashley Enzie
So really, trauma is a psychological and emotional response to an event or series of events that are deeply distressing or overwhelming or harmful. Really, it can affect a person’s sense of safety their identity and ability to regulate emotions or relate to others. In terms of type of trauma, there are a few different ones that we look to or define. So I’ll go through those quickly. The first one is acute trauma. So acute trauma is the trauma that results from just a single incident. So examples of this might be a car crash or an assault or a natural disaster. There’s also chronic trauma which is kind of repeated and prolonged exposure to really highly stressful events. Examples of this might be domestic abuse, or bullying, or long-term neglect. A third type is complex trauma, and complex trauma is really exposure to multiple varied traumatic events, often invasive and interpersonal in nature. These might include childhood abuse, or ongoing violence that somebody might experience in the home or in workplaces or different social settings. And then finally the fourth one that I would define is really developmental trauma. So trauma that occurs during crtitical stages of a child’s development, often affecting attachment, cognition, emotional regulation, things like that.
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you for being so thorough with that. I didn’t realize that there were all those different types of traumas.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, I think that so many of us don’t realize that and so I think spaces like this become really important so we can kind of have some language to define and organize the experiences that we have across time.
Katherine Hurtig
In your work, have you found, I don’t know if I’m going to explain this right, but like maybe a shame or a hesitancy to kind of label something as trauma, or really dive into that, if someone has experienced something, that ‘big picture’ would be smaller but is still traumatic? Does that make sense?
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, for sure. And I think that a lot of people learn to deny their experiences and the significance of them. And for sure, like if you go on social media or turn on the news, there's so much that's happening in our world all the time that is overtly traumatic things. And so when we have like kind of quotations around this, but smaller things that happen to us, something I hear really often is, oh, well, it could have been worse. Other people have it worse. And I think that's valid. And if we always hold our experiences up to this sort of like hierarchy, there's always somebody who could have it worse. But sort of what I come back to is we have like this basic brain architecture that requires certain conditions and certain conditions of safety in order to really thrive and be well.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Ashley Enzie
And when those conditions are violated, that's where we see maybe symptoms of trauma start to emerge. And so I think in that way, we kind of move into permission to not have to do the comparison thing. What happened to you is valid because you perceived it as harmful.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Ashley Enzie
And so that's sort of the space we get to come from.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And that's going to be really individualized, right? It's going to be really unique to each person.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, absolutely. And that comes back to the piece that we were talking about, about the important part is, well, how does the perceiver interpret what happened to them?
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, they're the decider of fundamentally whether something has been traumatic for them or not.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, and speaking of it being very unique, why is it that, you know, two people could go through the same thing, the same event, and react totally in totally different ways? Like one person is traumatized by that and another can just move past easily.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. And I think with that, we really have to sort of acknowledge the lens through which an individual looks through the world. And that is impacted by a lot of things. So their life history, their background, their previous experiences, their support system, certain elements of their personality or coping style, their beliefs about themselves, others in the world, all of these pieces really kind of come together in unison to form this lens for how we evaluate what happens to us. And so I would say really a big piece is that life history and what's happening around us. It runs through this lens and then our brain does this interpretation thing and really decides, well, what does this mean to us? What does this experience that's maybe happened out here, how does that fit into our self-narrative and what meaning do we make of that?
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Can we have like maybe an example of that, like how someone's history can maybe impact how they would respond to an event?
Ashley Enzie
So, I mean, I think we can look at this from kind of an acute trauma and a chronic trauma level. So when someone’s been through either of those experiences, it might sort of prime them or set them up for how they interpret the next difficult thing that happens to them, but maybe in very different ways based on their experience.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And you kind of answered this question. So trauma can kind of build up over time. Is that right?
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, for sure. And I think that's true of trauma, whether we are talking about those longer standing stressors or the ones that happen and finish. Either way, we're looking at difficult things that happen that diminish our kind of perceived internal resources and ability to cope. And so as stuff kind of maybe continues to happen around us, one of the levels that we kind of look at this from is, well, what's the impact on our nervous system? And so our nervous system fundamentally is sort of this threat detection device or software. Its whole role is to look out into the world and relationships around us and to fundamentally decide if we're safe or to compel us towards action if it perceives we're not safe. And so whether we're talking about any of those types of stressors, if you have kind of this heightened nervous system working for too long, always sort of perceiving threat and looking outward, it consumes a lot of emotional energy, a lot of bodily resources. And so if we think about it, maybe almost like burning a candle, like a wick, right? For as long as that sort of software stays in this really aroused, hypervigilant, responsive state, we're burning it down, we're burning it down, we're burning it down. And at a certain point, it becomes very fatiguing. And we also probably, maybe many of us, become more reactionary to things, to stressors as they come up, the more that that sort of cumulative load builds on top of us.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay. And more reactive to stressors that have nothing to do with the trauma?
Ashley Enzie
For sure.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Ashley Enzie
I think stressors that have nothing to do with the trauma and maybe also stressors that resemble the trauma.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Ashley Enzie
And so I guess to kind of answer your first question, if we're already dealing with diminished capacity from that stress, from that trauma, then things that are maybe, you know, normally not such a big deal or normally not so difficult, they feel like they are because we just have less inside to cope and deal with it. And then we also have this sort of part of our brain where our brain's a little bit lazy and it likes to sort of make educated guesses in the way of keeping us safe. And so maybe even a situation that is not super similar to the trauma, to the harmful thing, our brain goes, oh, that is kind of similar. This feels the same. Ah, it is the same. And so our brain will kind of start to respond from that place also.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
And you've touched on this a little bit, but, you know, I think we often focus on the emotional side of trauma. And how, you know, it makes us feel stressed, burnt out, more vigilant, anxious, that kind of thing. But how does it affect the body? You talked about the nervous system, but how else would we see that trauma manifest physically?
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. And from my conceptualization, nervous system is super central to this. And so when we're talking about a fatigued, taxed, overworking nervous system, things that we can expect in the body are tension, headaches, digestive issues, fatigue, this feeling of walking on eggshells or sort of always waiting for the other foot to sort of drop. And then for a lot of us, when we're in that place of over arousal, of over response, of vigilance from the nervous system, those kind of common ones that we've heard about of the fight, the freeze, the fawn responses, those might be part of this too. And I think it's really easy when we're talking about these things to maybe feel anger at our bodies for how they respond to trauma. And I think that that's a really important part of the conversation because I almost liken it to fundamentally the role of your nervous system, the role of your body is to protect you from threat.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Ashley Enzie
And maybe sometimes it doesn't always get it right and we over respond in situations. So I almost look at it as, you know, this like sweet friend of ours who has really good intentions, right? She like wants to help. She wants to come over and bring the lasagna after a bad day, right? But she forgets that we have a gluten allergy or something like that. And she brings lasagna over and we're sure she remembers this because why shouldn't she remember this? Then we eat the lasagna and we end up having a reaction, right? So when we come back to the intention, just like that friend, the role, the intention of the nervous system is to protect, is to create safety, is to ensure survival. But these symptoms are consequences of being constantly on edge.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So being in that kind of flight or fight stage for a long period of time, what can that do to our bodies?
Ashley Enzie
Well, I think chronic stress. We hear about stress, I think, a lot. We hear about stress-related disorders also. When we look to correlates of physiological health, there's lots of things. There's increases in heart disease. There's increases in respiratory issues. There are increases in diabetes rates. So there's lots of different pieces because, you know, our body is very integrated and we have this stress response axis within our body. And so, I mean, it's possible that things like that could happen over time. But also I want to be really aware of how resilient our body is, too. And those are things that might happen over time. And we should be aware of them because we don't want to subject ourselves to overtly stressful conditions for longer than we need to. We want to do things that encourage wellness and encourage our care, but also being aware that, you know, chronic stress for a very long time, it probably will show up in our bodies in different ways.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. Yeah. How else can trauma kind of show up in our day-to-day life, especially, you know, when someone doesn't realize that they've experienced or like what they've experienced is trauma?
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, for sure. I think that feeling numb or feeling disconnected, maybe avoiding certain people or places, having difficulty concentrating, maybe feeling less engaged in life, maybe having difficulty going to sleep or feeling like you're never really rested. All things that could be symptoms of that stress state, of that trauma.
Katherine Hurtig
Ashley, in your work with clients, we're talking a lot about this label of trauma. Yeah. But is that important to pinpoint, to say out loud, to have that label to help someone? Like when you help your clients, is that important to help them get through it? Do they need to know, okay, what you're going through is trauma? Or do you just kind of work with them as they come?
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, I think it depends a little bit on the individual. I think that there's some people who by hearing that label, they might feel really validated in their experience. It might feel like, you know, symptoms they've experienced or the pain that they felt. It now has a label, and it is something, especially, you know, if their trauma has been relational. Maybe there's been gaslighting or denial of their experience or trauma in some way. So, to hear that, hey, this is valid, this happened to you, of course you feel this way, I think can be really validating for a lot of folks. There's also the other side where, and I think this is where attuned listening becomes really important, where we don't want to pathologize somebody. And so if for somebody potentially hearing that, oh, this is trauma, you're traumatized. If they're going to take that in a way that makes them feel sick or other or less or broken, then that's something we have to be really careful of how we have the conversation around. And so I think when we're doing work with clients, it's always sort of this stance of trying to listen really attunedly and how will this land on this person? What will this mean to them? How will this sort of integrate into their life story and narrative? And then using responsible language with respect to where they are in their journey with themselves.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that must be tricky. Like I see, maybe it's just the algorithm that I'm being fed, But on social media, especially like TikTok, I see a lot of kind of mental health based content and almost like these trends, like everyone's talking about having ADHD. Everybody's talking about their trauma or their anxiety. And I mean, in a way, I think that's positive and it's normalizing. But then I think, you know, people could kind of jump to conclusions or think, okay, that's what I'm going through when it's not necessarily… like they're almost self-diagnosing. And like, what are your thoughts on that?
Ashley Enzie
I think it's really nice there's information out there and not everything that happens is necessarily traumatic, and I think a big sort of like litmus test or discriminating question around that is, do you visit there or do you stay there? And this is like also part of like the DSM and why, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, and why so many people when they're looking at clinical definitions of different disorders, they're like, oh, I have this, I have this, I have this. There's like this joke in undergraduate classes that when people are going through the DSM for the first time, they panic because I have this, I have this, I have this, I have this.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Ashley Enzie
But that's that's the thing. Do you visit there or do you stay there? Because a lot of these sort of symptoms are normal human symptoms and normal human experiences.
Katherine Hurtig
Right, Yeah, yeah.
Ashley Enzie
And so we're not talking about the presence or absence of something. We're talking about the frequency and the intensity of expression.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, no, that makes sense. In my conversations with counsellors for this show, a lot of symptoms are mentioned, like I'm thinking for anxiety and depression. Like if you just list them one by one, it's like, okay, yeah, I do have a high heart rate sometimes or I do have low motivation. But yeah, we kind of have to look at the big picture. How intense is this? How long have I been experiencing this?
Ashley Enzie
And I think there's also this piece of we can trust the individual with their own experience.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Ashley Enzie
And I would never walk into a situation with a client and suggest like, hey, like this was traumatic, like you were traumatized. Right. Because like we've talked about, there's no overt objective criteria outside of the individual. The individual is kind of the barometer by which that is traumatic or isn't traumatic. And so I think really allowing that trust in the therapeutic relationship of what did this mean to you? Did this mean anything to you? And letting that be true. Because I think the other risk here when we're talking about trauma or suggestibility is in that if I come into a conversation with you and I heavily suggest to you, hey, this was traumatic, does that then alter your perception of events in some way that's maybe harmful to you?
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Making that suggestion could change your mindset around it.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. Yeah. And so I think like that's the big question. Like what does this mean to you? How did this impact you? Did this impact other areas of your life in some way? And some people will say yes and some people will say no. And then we go on to the next topic and that's just fine. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. In your work with clients around trauma, does the reaction of others in their life, does that have an impact? Because I assume some people wouldn't understand their reaction to the experience. They might feel that they should be moving on or reacting in a different way. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that? How do you work with people around others' reactions?
Ashley Enzie
I think that's the space where the therapeutic stance becomes really important. And the therapeutic stance is this nonjudgmental, warm, unconditional regard for the person's experience. And I think also leading with curiosity. And so when you sort of describe that situation of, you know, somebody in an individual's life having some judgments about how they're experiencing a situation or how they should be going through it, my response to that is kind of, okay, it's fair. That makes sense to that individual and how they would maybe go through it. But again, it comes back to that sort of lens for me about how we all individually look through life and look at the world and knowing that we will fundamentally make meaning and sense of things very differently sometimes. And both of those perspectives are extremely valid. And so to the individual who's maybe suggesting to somebody how they should be handling a situation, I would encourage them to sort of suspend their own judgment, suspend their own evaluation, try to lean in, try to be curious, try to understand what this means to somebody. And then to the person who's maybe feeling like they're receiving a lot of judgment or suggestion for how they should be handling it, I would say almost in a little bit of a way, we have to be resistant to that. We have to know what's real and true to ourselves. Yeah. And that's sort of the way that we have to handle the situation. And maybe, you know, we can acknowledge that the people around us, hopefully, if we're in good spaces, want the best for us and they're just trying to be helpful. And that's lovely. And take what works for you and leave what doesn't. Set boundaries where you have to. But also know that fundamentally how this is organizing for you is the space that you have to meet it from. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Another term that I hear a lot when talking about trauma is the idea of triggers. What is that? How does that kind of relate to the experience of trauma?
Ashley Enzie
So earlier when we were talking, I made this comment about sort of the lazy brain, the software that wants to make assumptions and quick guesses. So that's sort of related to this idea of triggers. And so triggers being those things that happen maybe unexpectedly or expectedly as we go through our day to day that bring us right back to the initial trauma.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Ashley Enzie
And so before when I was kind of saying, you know, something happens and our brain goes like, ah, like this is kind of similar. Ah, it's actually exactly the same. And then it starts to respond in that sort of way of the initial sort of wound or hurt or trauma is what we're talking about with a trigger. And so trigger being something happens. It maybe catches us off guard. It brings us back to that sort of initial pattern of responding. The response can be really quick often, catches people off guard. A lot of people feel a lot of confusion in that too, especially if they've maybe been coming to therapy or it happened a long time ago of, you know, they've been working on this or this happened so long ago. So why can't they just let it go? And then we find sort of maybe layers of self-judgment in there. But knowing that if you're feeling triggered, it's not that you're not healing. It's not that you're doing something wrong. It's that these are sort of predictable nervous system experiences that occur when we've been through something really difficult. There's also a lot of folks who come in and they want to know how to get rid of the trigger. And so one sort of message that I find in that is, you know, the brain is what the brain is. Like we have kind of spontaneous neuronal firings that happen all the time. We might not be able to control whether we get triggered or whether something happens in the environment around us. So maybe the goal then shifts a little bit and it becomes, okay, how do we sort of increase your self-awareness around what is triggering to you? What are maybe higher risk situations? How do we prepare you with plans? How do we support you with coping? How do we encourage you to label what's happening for you and how does kind of soothe your nervous system when these things happen? Because they probably will happen. And so I think a big part of my stance becomes being triggered is normal. And now we get to sort of, and this is kind of corny language, but I'm kind of corny like this in terms of relationship with self, is how do we now invite you into this relationship with yourself to really get to befriend your nervous system, to start to create conditions of safety for yourself? And that's, I think, a big part of kind of the language that I use in dealing with triggers and this sort of thing.
Katherine Hurtig
Like if you know there are certain people, places, situations that trigger you, should those be avoided? Are there ever situations where you should avoid those?
Ashley Enzie
So I'm careful with never and always and absolutes. And I think it's very gray and it's very assessed on a case by case basis.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course.
Ashley Enzie
I would say if there's people or situations that have been like absolutely so harmful, so toxic, so disabling to you that it's not healthy, then those might be appropriate boundaries to set. But also you're still a person who has to live and be part of the world. And we don't want your trauma experience to then shrink you as a person in terms of what you allow yourself to experience. And so I think there's a degree of caution in that of we don't want to become avoidant of everything that could potentially become a trigger because I think life gets really small if we do that. And then also for kind of looking at it from like this empowerment perspective, right? If something happens to you in life and now you have to walk around on eggshells always trying to avoid something, just to me and my body when I think about it, it feels like agency and personhood. It shrinks a little bit. And the goal from my perspective becomes, how do we just use self-knowledge to allow you to create safety for yourself as you move through the world? And also this narrative piece around triggers of if a trigger happens, which it probably will because you're still functioning in the world, it's okay because that's normal and you know how to take care of yourself. And it's okay if you don't know how to take care of yourself and soothe yourself yet, but that might be a big part of what we do together in our therapy work.
Katherine Hurtig
This might be a silly question, but is there a way that we, like going back to, let's say, the example of the car accident.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Is there a way we can prevent ourselves from being traumatized by something like, you know, proactive work? I mean, not that we ever, you know.
Ashley Enzie
I say we all the time. I'm a big we person.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Not that we can ever predict that something's going to happen like that. But can we prevent being traumatized by something? Or is it like it's up in the air, our body will kind of choose at the time?
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. I think a big piece of it comes down to maybe pre-existing lifestyle and wellness factors. And also probably some belief system stuff in there too. And I would say that if, okay, well, if we're talking about belief system, right, I think people look at the things that happen to them in probably many, but two really fundamentally different ways from how I see it. One is something bad happens and we go, oh my God, like, look what happened to me, right? Like, look how much I've suffered. Look what's happened. This has taken something from me, right? And then another perspective is, oh my gosh, like, look what happened and look how much I got through. Look how strong I must be in order to get through something so difficult, right? And, you know, either of those perspectives is not wrong. I think a big part of which of those perspectives we sort of gravitate towards is related to our socialization, our family of origins, the kinds of cognitive style that we have learned from our families of origin growing up. But I mean, maybe that's a factor in how we perceive what happens to us. I also think there's pieces of prior to the trauma, are we somebody who has a supportive, soothing relationship with ourself or no? Are we somebody who is willing to acknowledge and validate our own pain and suffering or no? And there's no moral judgment on top of whether or not we can do these things. But if we were to imagine two different people, one who doesn't acknowledge their feelings, who is self-critical, who doesn't kind of provide comfort or care to themselves, who feels really victimized and sort of in danger in the world versus somebody maybe who says, oh man, like that was really hard. Oh man, like here's the feeling that's coming up from me. Like, oh man, how do I take care of myself in this really difficult moment? How do I mobilize supports and resources? Those people might have different outcomes. And so I don't think we can necessarily prevent it, but I think that there are pieces of our relationship with ourself that we can build out that maybe bolster or support the difficult moments in life when they do come because ultimately probably things come for most of us at some point whether that is the overt stuff like we've talked about or the loss of a parent or an accident or you know a medical procedure anything like that.
Katherine Hurtig
This reminds me of and I mentioned her once on the podcast before I have a friend who a couple years ago now her six-year-old daughter was diagnosed with neuroblastoma, so a type of cancer. And the way she's approached that has been really, really incredible to see because like you said, a lot of people who experience that could approach it as look at what has happened to us, to my child, our family, this is terrible. But she's chosen and she's worked really hard at being like, as keeping the joy and being grateful for every moment and it's a lot about mindset. But I, yeah, like when I think about that, I always want to make sure we know that it's not that if you aren't able to do that, that there's anything wrong with you.
Ashley Enzie
For sure.
Katherine Hurtig
Like it's amazing if you can look on the bright side, like be grateful in those situations, but that's just not, it's not possible for everybody.
Ashley Enzie
For sure. And I think there's a piece here of acknowledging everybody's process is different. And I'm sure your friend, when she first found out like her child had cancer, there's probably a lot of devastation in that and a lot of hurt and a lot of anger and a lot of unfairness and all of those emotions that really reasonably bubble up. And so, you know, I think that hopefully maybe if we're lucky, we get to a place where we get to make meaning of our experience in some way that moves us forward well and connects us to life. And so giving ourselves space to be what it is…
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, being okay with how we respond to it.
Ashley Enzie
A million percent. And with that too comes this self-compassionate lens too of exactly how this bubbles up for you is exactly fine and perfect what the moment is. And also we just hope you don't get stuck there, right? Because that makes life really hard. But we're not pushing you in any way. We're not suggesting it should look different. Hopefully you have people around you who are willing to meet you where you are and maybe just support you in just finding the next rung up the ladder in some way. Not to make your experience look different, not to make it more palatable for the people around you, but because you don't deserve to suffer into perpetuity. You deserve to feel relief and you deserve to be supported in that.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, and you said the word should, and I think that probably comes up a lot. When we experience trauma or any kind of like really negative emotion, like it's probably very common to think I should be feeling this. I should be this far along since this happened. I, you know, there's probably that pressure of pressure or desire of wanting to go through the situation a certain way. Do you find that?
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. And I think that there's probably lots of narratives out there too about like what trauma or progression through trauma should look like. And so I think one of, in my perspective, one of the first sort of therapeutic goals becomes how do we help you to know where you are in this and to label it and to just sort of normalize and validate that that's okay. And that maybe sounds a little bit cliche to say, but it's true. And I liken it to almost sometimes when we're in these really difficult situations, it's like, okay, here's where we are and we really badly want it to be different, right? Like we want it to be different, want it to be different. And so like the visual metaphor kind of becomes, okay, we're going to place you in front of this brick wall and I want you to move the brick wall. And somebody sort of like bears down and places their palms flat against it and presses, presses, presses, and they're exerting all their energy and they're frustrated and they just want to move this wall, right? Yeah. And they're just fatiguing themselves. Right. And so part of the work becomes, OK, can I drop my hands and can I step back for a second to just appreciate the reality of what the moment is, what this is for me to accept that I might not like that there's a wall here, but there is a wall here. And if I can sort of meet myself there and kind of hold my head up and drop my arms and stop pressing against it so much, will my gaze, will my eyes sort of lift long enough to see, okay, well, you know, the brick wall, it's actually six feet wide and I could walk around it. And so what I mean by that is in this sort of experience, so many of us are fighting against ourselves and angry at ourselves for what we're experiencing or for our symptoms or for how it should be. And so I think that in therapy or in these conversations, hopefully there's this element of permission of, you know what, this is what it was for you and this was really hard. And we can acknowledge the ways in which it was really hard. And that doesn't mean we're sinking into it and that we are, you know, kind of going to be subject to it in this way forever. But I think one of the first steps is, well, how do we stop fighting ourself or shaming ourself?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. I bet a lot of that comes from like when we think like, oh, I should be feeling this way. It's because we want to, we like to know what's coming. We like to know what to expect. So if we think like, you know, these are the steps that I'm going to go through, it just helps to kind of conceptualize the experience a bit more.
Ashley Enzie
And I think so many of us, like reasonably so, we want to get out of distress as quickly as possible. And so it would be so nice if we could come in and get like a step-by-step of how do I not feel this trauma anymore? How do I get through this? But I think often for many of us, this is a gentle, reflexive process of being responsive to where we are, to acknowledging our needs and to slowly creating safety and comfort for ourselves again, to sort of companion ourselves back to something that feels probably not the same, but better in some measurable way. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So how can trauma, especially trauma that hasn't really been worked through or dealt with, how can that affect things like sleep, relationships, how someone sees themselves?
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. So lots of things in there. So I think it can lead to, you know, trouble sleeping, feelings of restlessness, maybe difficulty falling to sleep or staying asleep. Maybe for some folks that I've worked with, nightmares even. So really different for different people. In terms of relationships, dependent on kind of the type of trauma or emotional injury, maybe there's trust issues, maybe there's emotional withdrawal, maybe there's sort of increased conflict in relationship. And that can be for many reasons, but maybe one being too, you know, when something bad has happened to us, we sort of find this self-protective mechanism in us that wants to make sure nothing bad happens again. So we might sort of withdraw or experience increased conflict. And then I think with that too, trauma can impact our self-esteem and how we see ourselves too. And so maybe this feeling of shame or feeling broken in some way, feeling misunderstood in ways that separate us from others. So I think it can show up in lots of different ways depending on what's kind of gone on.
Katherine Hurtig
Is the way that trauma is treated and addressed, does it differ depending on what caused the trauma? I'm thinking because last year we did an episode kind of close to when the wildfires were happening.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
And that trauma of experiencing like this natural disaster, does the work, I mean, I'm sure, again, it is very unique to the individual. But the like umbrella concept of trauma, does it look kind of similar whether you're experiencing a natural disaster or, you know, an accident or abuse? Does that make sense?
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. And I think that that's another really important part of the early work of just figuring out what this means to the individual. And like one example being with the wildfires that did happen last year, Calgary Counselling Centre did have a response as part of that in providing free counselling services to those folks. And, you know, not everybody came for free counselling. So some people, you know, they kind of just picked up life and they were really sort of logistical around it and kind of got back to business. And some people were really deeply emotionally impacted. And so I think that the main thing in there is meeting people where they're at. And that's really what I want to know when we first start having these conversations of, well, what does this really mean to you? What did this mean to you? Because I think from outside of the individual, there's no way to predict what it could truly mean to them. Again, coming back to those important pieces of history, their coping style, their beliefs, their resources, all of those pieces is really impactful to, well, what was this for them? And so I don't know if that answers your question great, but I would say in terms of how we approach counselling based on different types of trauma, very individualistic, very dependent on client preferences, and very dependent on where they are in the meaning that they're making of this experience for themselves.
Katherine Hurtig
What can trauma look like in children? And like are signs different than what we might experience as adults?
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. And I think a big thing with children, especially dependent on sort of age, is they probably don't have the language to express what they're going through. And so it comes up a lot more sort of behaviorally. So maybe it could show up as tantrums or as clinginess or as, you know, maybe they were doing OK in school before, but now they're really not. Maybe they're having nightmares or stomach aches or other sort of regressive behaviors developmentally. And so I think in the absence of language, which is really, you know, even hard for adults who maybe get to be on TikTok and hear about it or whatever else, right? Children really don't have that. And so I think probably the first sort of manifestations that we're going to see will be behaviorally. And so specifically, I think changes to behavior.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay, changes. Yeah, because when you're listing some of those things, I'm like, ooh, again, a lot of those seem like kind of normal kid things on their own. So as a parent, how would you kind of realize, like recognize that your kid might be having a hard time?
Ashley Enzie
So I would say the number one thing is to ask them. And so like with that, I think a lot of times, well, there's a lot of parents out there who want to role model strength to their children. right, who don't want their children to see them upset or anything like that. But feeling feelings is like a normal part of a human experience. And so maybe if something has gone on, like being willing to go to your child and say, you know, buddy, like that was a really hard thing. Like, how are you feeling about this? Right. And maybe in that first conversation, maybe a child doesn't have an answer, but by asking it, you're starting to normalize that there's space for emotions and that hard emotions are welcome and that there are things we can talk through and that they're okay. And so I think being willing to role model, having conversations like this and also observing as well you can, right. But also, you know, you're not, nobody's, nobody's perfect. So there might be things that you miss, but I really feel like that invitation into conversation, that acknowledgement of what's gone on is really important in creating space where whatever's going on can be dealt with.
Katherine Hurtig
And at what point would a parent think like maybe my child needs extra support? Maybe counselling would be helpful for what they're going through?
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. I think if there's maybe lots of behavioral acting out, if you're noticing that maybe your child is isolating or withdrawing a lot, if you're noticing maybe difficulty sleeping for a prolonged period of time, if you're noticing more aggression, if you're noticing more conflict in your relationship with your child, sort of maybe despite your efforts to check in with them and to create that space, maybe that is a place where counselling could be beneficial. And we're kind of trying to set up the stage then of, you know, this is a space for you to talk about whatever is important to you. And mom and dad aren't going to know what's going on in here. And this is for us to sort of explore and really just for you to talk about whatever's there for you. And sometimes it can take kids a while to open up. Yeah. And so I think there's also an important piece of parents being aware of that and knowing that when as counsellors we work with children, especially young children, the first part is creating safety in their relationship so that they can talk about whatever is actually going on inside of them.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Ashley Enzie
Which might take some time.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What are some healthy ways, some healthy coping strategies and healthy ways people can begin to cope with the effects of trauma even if they might not be ready to dive into counselling?
Ashley Enzie
And so I kind of probably sound like a little bit of a broken record here, but I think like that willingness to acknowledge our own experience, that willingness to validate our own feelings. You know, there are lots of good resources online now that tell us a little bit about trauma. And so maybe starting to pursue some sort of psychoeducational material for yourself so that you have some language for some experience.
Katherine Hurtig
And how do we discern, you know, what's helpful and legit versus just sensational or not as informative?
Ashley Enzie
For sure. I would say look for real authors and real clinicians in the field as sources of information. Yeah. When you brought up TikTok earlier, you're right, there's tons of information. And remembering, too, that TikTok and social medias are algorithmic based.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Ashley Enzie
And they're looking for views to make money. Right. And so there's going to be lots of sensationalism in that. And so we want to go to actual professionals in the field. And so people who are really great in this area, like I mentioned, Gabor Mate, Deb Dana, Stephen Porges, people who really work with trauma, who work with the nervous system, who recognize this as a brain process. And I think that's really the level we want to start to appreciate what has happened to us from.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And what would someone look for in a counsellor when they do feel they're ready to talk about their trauma? So how do they kind of determine that a counsellor would be a good fit to help them deal with what they're going through?
Ashley Enzie
In my experience, a lot of times it's a feeling. And I think that we're okay to be led by that sometimes. But, you know, when we're sharing the hard parts of our life, I think it's really important that we do feel a level of comfort with somebody. I think it's important that we feel warmth. I think it's important that we feel listened to and attended to. And then that person is really making an effort to kind of step into our shoes and understand what it feels like to be us for a moment. If, you know, a counsellor, if a clinician was really quick to tell you how something is or to over-interpret your situation or something like that, I would be a little bit cautious.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Ashley Enzie
And so I think it really comes down to when you walk away from that first session with somebody, do you feel seen? Do you feel heard? Do you feel like that person was curious about your experience? And then also hopefully they conveyed a couple of things to you around, you know, respecting your pacing, respecting how you want to tell your story, really conveying a respect for your autonomy and personhood. And I think the term trauma-informed care is important. And it's not just a term, it's, you know, training we go through also, right?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, what is that? Trauma-informed care?
Ashley Enzie
It really refers to a way of sort of sensitively having conversations that respect the way that people's life histories intersect with their experiences. Like how you approach it. How we engage in our communications. Yeah. How we respond to it. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
And are there specific therapy approaches or ways of counselling that work well for trauma?
Ashley Enzie
So there's a couple. Well, there's actually quite a few, really. So there's trauma-focused cognitive behavioral therapy, which, you know, CBT is something that a lot of folks are familiar with. We're talking about how cognitions and feelings interact with behavior and that sort of thing. So this being that, but with a little bit more of a trauma focus, there's also internal family systems. And so internal family systems or IFS, it kind of breaks down the different parts of you into parts. And we acknowledge that they all play really important roles in trying to protect you. So how do we sort of welcome different parts of you in, in order to really have this holistic framework of relating to and understanding yourself? There's also narrative therapy. Narrative therapy is great because it kind of tries to unearth, you know, what are the stories of what has happened to us or who we are? And how do we maybe look for exceptions in your experience that allow us to shift to a more empowered narrative that might support how you move forward in the world, how you handle future situations? There's also somatic experiencing and polyvagal theory, which are perspectives that I really align with and use as a framework in my work that really does prioritize that impact of nervous system. And, you know, fundamentally, we are biological creatures in this world and we're working from the level of nervous system and knowing that we have this reflexive, responsive nervous system. And how do we create this sensation of inner safety when that sense of safety has been rocked? So there's many different kind of modalities you could work from with a therapist. And so that person fit model becomes really important. And so early on in those conversations, we're starting to listen to, you know, is this somebody who maybe deals more in metaphor? Is this somebody who's really like literal and analytical? And we're kind of trying to do a little bit of matching for what sort of style or modality would suit maybe how this person's brain wants to have this conversation.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, you answered my next question of how you kind of go about determining the best approach for that client.
Ashley Enzie
For sure. And I would say that I'm pretty transparent in my work too. And so when somebody comes in and they tell me, okay, here's what's going on for me or here are my goals or whatever it is, I like to sort of front load the work and I'm going to say, okay, so I'm going to do my best to listen for what it is you're telling me. And I'm going to kind of run it through my own interpretation and I'm going to spit it out. And I'm not like spitting it out because I'm saying this is how it is. I'm putting almost like a mound of clay out on the table for us to shape together. And I'm going to give you some ideas that I have about maybe some directions that we could go. And what's going to become really important in our work ultimately being successful or not is you bringing your preferences into that. Us deciding sort of a course or trajectory that makes sense for you, who you are, your values, your beliefs, your beliefs about change, all of these important things. And then we're going to kind of co-direct this together. And I think that that becomes especially important when we're working with people who have experienced trauma, because so often trauma is this, like you said, this loss of certainty, this loss of safety, this disconnection from self. So starting to reestablish that agency, even within the therapeutic relationship and knowing that they have choice becomes, I think, a really, a really important part of the whole thing.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. I like that. Really laying out what to expect in the therapy room.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Amazing. Thank you so much, Ashley.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah. Thank you.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Giving me a lot better understanding of, of trauma.
Ashley EnzieYeah. Thank you. And I appreciate us having this conversation. I really appreciate how you brought up the social media piece and how some of these words are used and what they actually might mean clinically. And if there's anything that, you know, somebody kind of hears in this conversation, I hope it's that if they have this little inkling inside of them, that they're struggling or suffering to allow themselves the space to explore that a little bit and to hopefully be met by somebody who is safe and nonjudgmental because what you deserve is you deserve to move through the world feeling well and you deserve to move through the world feeling safe. And if things have happened in your world that have contributed to you not feeling that way, they deserve to be on earth, then I'm really sorry that happened to you. So I hope it becomes an invitation for self-inquiry and for care and for self-compassion.
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you. Thank you for leaving us with that.
Ashley Enzie
Yeah, thank you, Katherine.
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in. This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, Manuel Montano, Jenna Forbes, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Ashley Enzie. To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favorite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling to anyone in Alberta with no waitlist and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com and counsellingalberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the U.S., seek help from your general medical practitioner.