Season 3, Episode 18: Re-Release: Exploring Social Connections as a Key to Overcoming Depression, Plus Maddi’s Story
Social connection is one of the strongest protectors against depression. In this episode, we talk with registered social worker, Sarah Rosenfeld about why human connection is so important for our mental health, and how to keep relationships alive when motivation is thin. We also hear from Maddi, a Calgary Counselling Centre client, who shares how individual and group counselling helped her feel less alone and build day-to-day tools.
From October 6–12, take the free, confidential depression screening quiz at areyoufeelingok.com.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully. Each episode is a chance to talk about mental health in a way that's simple, honest, and helpful. We'll share stories, tips, and tools to help you feel supported and feel your best. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
Depression. It's one of the most common mental health concerns, but the good news because it's very treatable. In this episode, I talk with Sarah Rosenfeld, Associate Director of Counselling at Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta, about how relationships and human connection can ease feelings of depression. We'll also hear from Maddi, a Calgary Counselling Centre client. She talks about her experience with depression and how individual and group counselling gave her the support and tools to manage her depression.
From October 6th to 12th, take the free depression screening quiz at areyoufeelingok.com.
Sarah Rosenfeld, welcome back.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Thanks. Nice to be here. I always love our conversations.
Katherine Hurtig
Me too. So it is National Depression Screening Day this week. And, you know, we're talking about a bunch of different aspects of depression in a few of our episodes. And today we're going to get into how important it is to stay social and to be around people and to not isolate when you're feeling low, when you're feeling depressed. So, yeah, I am excited to talk to you about this. What is it about social connection that's so important for someone dealing with depression?
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think it's one of the things that helps us manage some of our symptoms. So what do I mean by that? So it actually helps you regulate emotion. It helps you have empathy for other people. I actually was reading about a study from the Massachusetts General Hospital that identified that social connection is the strongest protective factor for depression.
Katherine Hurtig
Is it?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yes. So the study, which was published in the American Journal of Psychiatry, looked at more than 100 modifiable factors, including lifestyle. So that's exercise and diet, social, such as support and engagement and environmental factors, which would be green space and pollution. And basically they found that social connection is the most important preventative factor in general populations. And without social connection increased the risk for depression. So I thought that was really, really interesting.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
That those other things are important. But social connection is actually one of the most important things when we're trying to look after ourselves and our mental health.
Katherine Hurtig
And on the flip side, what kind of impact does isolation have on depression? So, you know, if you're not out with people, if you're not reaching out, what's that going to do for you?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Well, it's going to lead you to feel really alone, really disconnected, probably not going to give you a whole bunch of perspective about what's really happening. And then it just kind of fuels itself. So the more you do that, the more you do that increasingly. And so you just end up being more and more alone and more and more dealing with your symptoms. Whereas sometimes those social connections are a real buffer to us being able to notice what's happening internally. It's a bit of a distraction sometimes, a positive distraction.
Katherine Hurtig
You touched on this a bit, but can you talk a bit more about like the science behind how connections with people can impact our mental health?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Sure. When you're social connections, the opposite of that would be social isolation, right? Basically, those people, as I said earlier, have limited interactions with others on a day-to-day basis. And the potential effects of that, right, when we look at how that impacts people, it leads to depression, poor sleep quality, accelerated decline in your cognitive abilities because you're not actually interacting and responding to other people. So then you're getting less stimulus, less ability to problem solve, decision make, all of those kinds of things.
Katherine Hurtig
Wow.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Executive functioning. So that ability to make decisions to be right, that air traffic control, when there's lots of stimulus happening, you're actually you're training yourself about how to navigate if that person's coming towards you. How do you engage them or how do you decide you want to move in a different direction? All of that functioning when you're in isolation, you're not doing any of that. And how do you learn how to connect with people on a deeper level if you don't even know how to connect with them on a basic level? One of the things that's really important is just practicing those day-to-day connections so that you can also figure out how to have deeper connection with other people and engagement. So by isolating, you're not doing any of those things.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And that's kind of, it's a bit of a part of depression. Hey, you know, you're feeling so low that you don't want to be around other people. So.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Exactly. I think one of the things for people to understand is that even when they're feeling that way, they always have options. For instance, you can say to somebody that reaches out to you, yeah, I want to see you, but could you come to my house and have pizza instead of us going out? Like, I think a lot of the time people feel like it's an all or nothing proposition.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I was just going to say, yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
It's really not an all or nothing proposition.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
And it's about, unless there's really a reason that you can't go to something, saying yes and, and figuring out how to navigate that. So what do I mean by that? Exactly. Like I said, so if somebody invites you out, you don't feel like going for out for dinner. Can you figure out a way to have them come to your place? Or can you meet someplace that's less busy? Because that's more comfortable for you?
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Can you negotiate a time of day that's a little bit more convenient for you? Can you say yes, and then think about how you're going to handle it later? I think there's lots of strategies that people can use. But when you say no, you close that door off indefinitely.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So the people around you, you know, your friends, family, co-workers, whatever, what would they see if you are struggling with depression? Like what would someone notice about someone's behavior, attitude, things that they're saying? What would they pick up on that might make them think, okay, something's up?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Irritability. Frustration. So they get easily frustrated by things. Cynical, like, why does it matter? Why, if I put any effort into this, will it make a difference? Socially withdrawn is what we've been talking a lot about. So they're not connecting. They're not coming up and having meals. They're not taking phone calls. They're not responding to people that reach out to them. I think the other thing is just how are they connecting with the things that they are doing? Did they used to be somebody that was really excited about things and now they're just, eh, whatever. Yeah. It's just something I got to do. Like watching the language that people are using and how they're talking about things, even if they're difficult. Are they saying, yeah, this is a difficult time I'm going through, but I've got these things that I'm looking forward to. Is it, is the glass half empty all the time and nothing is sort of exciting them or nothing they're looking forward to? Those would be kind of indicators.
Katherine Hurtig
And if they're noticing this, what are what are some first steps that someone could take to help someone out that that they notices might be dealing with depression?
Sarah Rosenfeld
One of the things that can be really helpful is being able to say, hey, I know you wanted to go for that walk yesterday. Can I come with you today and do it? I know you wanted to you mentioned that there was that thing that you wanted to do. How about we get in the car and go do that together? Those really little small things. Some people think it's got to be these big acts.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Big gestures, but sometimes it's actually those really tiny little ways of showing support that make the biggest difference. So I would say that would be a good starting place. And always being available to that person, but recognizing that they may want their boundaries. And so what do I mean by that? Person might say, I don't want to talk. And you can say, okay, doesn't sound like talking today is what you want to do. But how about I check in in a couple of days and just see where we're at?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
So it's being able to come back and revisit that conversation, which does take some resilience and persistence. But someday there might be somebody on the other end saying, yeah, let's have that conversation today.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So respecting the boundary, but also there's a bit of insistence like I'm you might be pushing away a little bit, but I am here and I'm going to stay here.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, I'm not going anywhere because they might not be doing all that well. So it's like, OK, you're you're struggling right now. I'm doing OK right now, but we're OK. You want to send the message that even though there are struggles, we're OK. And you want to be doing things to recognize and help them know we're kind of doing this together.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, this topic, I mean, it's something that I can very much relate to. When I was when I was going through depression, I just felt like such a burden. I was like, I would spend like a whole day crying and then my friends would want to get together. And it's like, I, it wasn't just like, I don't want to do it. It's like, I don't want them to have to deal with me in this state. Like you feel just so inconvenient. So, I mean, if someone's in that state of mind, you know, how do you motivate yourself to get out there anyway and be with people, you know, and how can the people around them kind of remind them that they aren't a burden?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, that's a really tough one. And thanks for sharing that. I think you're right. I think people do feel like they've got to be positive and upbeat and otherwise they're not going to be any fun to be around. Yeah. So I think there's a couple of things that people can do. I think it's reminding ourselves that even though we may not feel like we're enjoyable to be around, maybe people still really enjoy our company because there's got to be moments where you're able to have somebody smile or maybe they just actually enjoy just sitting with you and being there. So it's not always that you've got to be the life of the party and super excited and all of that. I think it's about recognizing that relationships have given taken them. They're like elastic bands. And I think sometimes when people get depression, they think they're more like a piece of spaghetti where there's tension and it breaks.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
An elastic band relationship is one where you're having a rough time. And so I'm going to kind of pick up the slack and do a little bit more here because I know there's going to be time when you're going to bounce back and do that for me. So I think it's about being able to kind of have a metaphor of how you look at your relationships and see that there's a lot more elasticity in them than you think.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And I think there's that what's the more clinical term for it, like the cognitive distortions that are going on when you're depressed. It's like I couldn't like if I turn it around, I wouldn't ever think if my you know, if one of my close friends was really sad, was going through a hard time, I wouldn't think they were a burden. But, you know, you think that about yourself.
Sarah Rosenfeld
That's a really important thing that you've just identified there. If you were in that person's shoes, how would you be looking at it? You'd be saying, wow, they're going through a tough time. They probably need a little bit of extra help right now or I'm happy to make them a meal or make them feel good. You're right you never look at it in the same way that the person internally is looking at it and as you said that's often what is one of the hallmarks of depression is those cognitive distortions and so a distortion is really what it says you look in the mirror you see something that's actually not what's in the mirror and then you believe what you see in the mirror.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Sarah Rosenfeld
One of the things is really helping people recognize they can do that through support from their family saying, hey, that's not how I see you. They can do it for themselves in terms of trying to figure out when they're having that thinking and what they're actually doing that's positive. And then there's always actually getting some more professional support around, okay, when do you identify that you're doing that? Is it mostly that you dismiss all the positive things that are going on in your life? Or do you become really all or nothing in your thinking? What are the hallmarks of what your particular style and flavor of depression looks like? Because everybody's looks a little bit different and be able to target and tackle that specifically, but how you want to address it.
Katherine Hurtig
So what can someone do if they feel like they want to withdraw, they don't have that motivation to be around people? How do they find that motivation or what little things can they do to kind of maintain social connections when dealing with people feels overwhelming?
Sarah Rosenfeld
So I think it's a little bit like exercise. It's the end of the day or it's the start of the morning. You don't really want to go. You end up putting your running shoes on and going for that walk, going for that run, going to the gym. You come back and you always feel better than you did when you woke up that day or decided to go at the end of the day. So it's that kind of thinking. Yeah, I know this is going to be difficult. I know it's going to be hard, but I always feel better after I feel if I connect with my friends or I go and do that thing where I'm socializing and I take my mind off of the things that I'm worrying about.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Remembering how you're going to feel.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. That resonates so much. I still get that sometimes. Like, oh, like I just feel like staying home, you know, vegging out in bed. But I know that it's important to go out with my friends, you know, keep up those connections. And you're right. Like I feel, you know, as they say, like my cup feels a lot fuller afterwards. So…
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, it's because it helps us to put things in perspective.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
It helps us to get our mind off of things. It helps to reduce those distortions, right? Because we're not in our own head. We're interacting with other people. And I think that's why social connection is so important. It allows us, especially for people that are more internal focused, to think of things outside themselves and then have different experiences and make different connections. And then, wow, looks a little different now than it did three hours ago.
Katherine Hurtig
What would you say to someone who doesn't have a lot of close connections? Maybe they don't live near family or they don't have a lot of close friends or they've just moved or, you know, things like that. How do you push yourself to make new friends or even just find those connections throughout the day?
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think it's about setting those little goals. Like if you're thinking you're in a new city, you've started a new job, maybe. What are you going to do when you go into the office that day? Or how are you going to connect with somebody virtually and just reach out? It reminds me of my early days at Calgary Counselling Centre because we were remote within three weeks of me starting the new job.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I remember that.
Sarah Rosenfeld
And so it was like, I don't have a community of support here. How am I going to create one? And little by little, I just reached out to people and tried to get to know them and started to build that community. But it didn't start as a huge, massive undertaking. It was, okay, each week, maybe let me reach out and meet somebody new. So I think it's got to be sometimes, right? You talked about those cognitive distortions. Sometimes that's the biggest challenge with depression. Right. Is that you see the issue as being so big that you don't know how to break it down.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, exactly.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Right? So you saw that person three times now at the gym. Maybe ask for their number and you could kind of connect outside of the gym space or just even saying hi to people when you're going about your regular day to day, when you go do your grocery shopping, strike up a conversation with the teller.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
It doesn't have to be huge things. It's just that will help you feel more connected to the world and to people in your world.
Katherine Hurtig
That human connection is so important.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, it is.
Katherine Hurtig
Is there a point when pushing yourself to be social could be counterproductive? Like how do you find that right balance?
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think it's about not seeing socialization as all or nothing.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Sarah Rosenfeld
You want to have a principle that socializing a little bit is always better than not doing it at all.
Katherine Hurtig
Again, kind of, it relates a lot back to exercise because you hear that as well. Yeah. Like a little bit is better than nothing.
Sarah Rosenfeld
A little bit is better than nothing. And I think that's, um, but you also have to recognize that, right. If that you thought you were going to do with people. And you give people a heads up about it and say, look, I'm happy to come out tonight. But just so you know, I think I can only stay for an hour. Is it still OK if I come?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
And then you have boundaries around saying, OK, I've had my social connection and now I need to go home and decompress because your batteries have been drained. Right. Like it's that social battery thing that I think a lot of people talk about with depression. Right.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally.
Sarah Rosenfeld
It's like they've run out of bars and they need to go home and plug in their charger so that they have more bars to do it the next day. So it's also kind of knowing what things deplete your bars of energy.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Sarah Rosenfeld
And do you have enough bars to do what it is that you need to do? And can you reduce the time that you've maybe allotted to do it? So it's kind of like what we talked about, the all or nothing mentality. You got to take the offer or not take it at all. How about you take it and modify it? Or how about you take it and then halfway through the evening you say, thanks, this was lovely. I'm going to go home early. I need to get an early night's sleep. So I think it's about…
Katherine Hurtig
Like having that awareness of...
Sarah Rosenfeld
Having that awareness and also being able to give yourself options. I think so often people close doors when they're depressed. They think it's got to be everything or nothing at all. And it goes back to what we talked about.
Katherine Hurtig
Sarah, what can someone do if they're friends, family, whoever? They just don't understand what they're going through or aren't sure how to help them.
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think this is where really this is difficult, but I think it's being able to try to think about what's happening for that person. Try to put yourself in their shoes. So often we go to that sympathy place or that pity place. But what do you think it feels like for that person to not have the energy to do the things they want to do or to feel like you said earlier that they feel like they're a burden? Are you able to kind of put yourself in that position and say, I wonder seeing through their eyes what this feels like? What does this actually look like? What could they be experiencing? How could I understand that differently? It's really trying to have that understanding and then be able to say, what do you think I would want to hear if I was in that position? You'd probably want to hear that you're still valued. You'd probably want to hear that you're still cared for. You'd probably want to hear that people still want to spend time with you. you'd probably want to be told that there isn't a limitation on what support looks like.
Katherine Hurtig
And one thing I just thought of, like going back to my own experience, is being, you know, feeling included even if I didn't always feel up to putting myself out there.
Sarah Rosenfeld
That's really important, isn't it?
Katherine Hurtig
Like invite me. I may not come, but still invite me.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Exactly. And I think one, sometimes what happens is people start to realize, I keep getting these invitations. Maybe they actually still really do want me to be around.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
And this time I'm going to say yes. And that's why that's so important is that consistent, continuous invitation and offer. You never know when the person's going to turn around and say, yeah, I do want to show up. I do want to be there. Thanks for the invite. And I am going to be looking forward to this.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. What do you think some small social activities could be that might feel manageable for someone who's struggling with depression?
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think it's things like going for a walk, doing your coloring in your coloring book, if you have one, if you like to do that kind of thing. So maybe creative. Yeah, maybe you do crochet or knitting or painting or writing. Why that's really helpful is that it's hard for your brain to focus on the other things that you're worried about when you're engaged in an activity like that.
Katherine Hurtig
Oh, OK.
Sarah Rosenfeld
So it really refocuses your attention. It's a form of distraction, but a healthy form of distraction. So anything that will consume your attention, energy and focus, probably a pretty useful thing to be doing.
Katherine Hurtig
And doing that with other people?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Absolutely. Always fun to do things with others.
Katherine Hurtig
So Sarah, how can we set boundaries? You know, if we're going through a depressive episode, if we're really feeling down, how do we set boundaries while still staying connected?
Sarah Rosenfeld
So I think you want to detach emotionally from the situation that you can't control, right?
Katherine Hurtig
Detach?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, detach a little bit from that.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Sarah Rosenfeld
So what are the things you can actually change? What's actually within your control? and then redirecting your energy towards those things.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Sarah Rosenfeld
So I think often there's a focus on the things that are out of the person's control, like how the friend responded to X or how the boss interpreted Y. Yeah. Those things are out of your control. So healthy detachment doesn't actually mean that you're shutting down from anything. It's just a redirection of your focus and attention. And so if people can think of it that way, then they're focusing on those things that we talked about earlier. How can you engage in activities that are meaningful? Well, you can do, you know, the walking that we talked about. You can go wash your car. You can, those are within your control.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
But how somebody responded is so much more out of your control. So I think it's being able to decide to figure out how you want to engage.
Katherine Hurtig
Kind of internally, like setting boundaries with yourself?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yes, it is setting boundaries with yourself. So boundaries with yourself are really that indicator to the world and to people around you about where what's important to you.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
So when you're able to set those boundaries externally, you're also reminding yourself of what matters to you and what's important to you and that that is not going to take up your focus and attention or energy right now. So what do you want to focus your energy and attention on? What is going to be important to you? So it's almost like a recalibration of what are your values? What matters to you? What's important? And I think it's the little small things that sometimes help us return to what matters. And that's why these pieces around engagement and connection are so important, because it's really hard to do that in the absence of something to respond to.
Katherine Hurtig
You're right. That idea of figuring out your values, determining what your values are, that's come up quite a bit in my conversations with counsellors. And how would one determine that?
Sarah Rosenfeld
How do you like to spend your time? What are the things that you notice you react really strongly to? And what is the purpose and mission for where you're putting your energy and attention? It's almost like everybody has a little mini mission or vision statement about what their purpose and function is.
Katherine Hurtig
Is it important to label it, like to have a word or just kind of have a concept of this is what's important to me?
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think it's important to have intentionality. Some people might have an image that they're working towards. they have something on their wall that reminds them of the things that really matter to them. For other people, they actually need to write it out in a business plan and actually be able to have the words that they see. And for some people, it's the experience of being asked the question and then having to self-reflect about it and then come up with the answer. Because for some people, they're doing it and they're living that way, but they've never really been able to make the connection to what it is that's driving that purpose. So being able to have that named sometimes.
Katherine Hurtig
Like this is a value.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, this is a value. This is important. Then helps you know, oh, I'm in alignment here. Or, oh, maybe that's why that thing upset me so much because I felt disrespected. And that's out of my, I really want to feel, one of my values is that I feel respected. And so when that happened, I felt disrespected. And that's why I'm having such a strong response.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. So long term, how can the relationships we have help in, I don't want to say recovering from depression, but, you know, managing it long term?
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think it's about building that network of support. I think it's about changing how we look at these things. We never actually manage anything or are successful at anything alone, as much as we might want to tell ourselves that. It's the connection we made. It's the conversation we had. It's being able to sit with other people and learn from them. And that could mean learning some really hard lessons from people and how you want to work, but we don't actually do anything alone.
Katherine Hurtig
I think that's a huge point to make because I think in so many times, especially if we're struggling, I don't know where it came from, but it's like, yeah, we want to feel like I handled this by myself. It's going to look better on me if I handled this alone, but that's, yeah, you're right. We don't do anything alone. And why would we need to.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Well, I think it's where that shame comes in and that stigma around mental health, unfortunately.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
We still think that somehow it's our fault. We have to fix it by ourselves. But these are about our connections and relationships and our societies. And so we have to be able to invest in those things to realize, I think, for all of us that this is actually a bigger conversation than just the one that we're having internally with ourselves. It's about the quality of our relationships. And I think if you talk to a lot of people that have really meaningful internal social worlds, but also interpersonal worlds, they tend to be pretty contented. It's not that everything's perfect or that they don't have struggles, but they know they have that network of support. They know they can consult. They know they can go to this person and vent. They know they can go to the gym and see the people that they see, even if they're not talking to them. Those are your networks of support. And we just don't do it alone.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I don't know who said it. I think it was a musician. No man is an island.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think that's just a really important reminder. And maybe that's what we want to leave people with today is that reminder that you're not an island. You don't have to be. It's not actually how we thrive.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
That it's okay to reach out and have people around you so that you can kind of…
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, we need to lean on each other.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah. Start to feel a little bit better.
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
You're welcome.
Katherine Hurtig
We've been talking about how connection can play such an important role in easing depression. Now you'll hear from Maddi, a client who experienced this firsthand through both individual and group counselling. She found support that helped her through her depression.
…
Maddi thanks so much for chatting with me today.
Maddi
No problem I'm happy to be here.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah can you just introduce yourself
Maddi
yeah so um my name is Maddi. I am currently unemployed at the moment um I just got a call as of today for a job interview amazing so fingers crossed how that goes yeah so kind of looking in towards like the administration kind of thing so that's kind of where I'm headed.
Katherine Hurtig
Excellent. So what was going on in your life that made you decide to reach out to Calgary Counselling Centre?
Maddi
So I suffer from major depressive disorder and ADHD, as well as borderline personality disorder. I had been in counselling for quite some time and then just kind of progressed through counselling. And my counsellor was like, hey, why don't you try this group counselling? And I thought that that was going to be a great opportunity for me to jump in and try something different out of my comfort zone.
Katherine Hurtig
And this individual counselling, was that with Calgary Counselling Centre?
Maddi
It was, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay. Was there something specific that happened that kind of made you say, okay, it's time to talk to someone, it's time to get some help?
Maddi
I had been suffering with pretty deep depression and throughout about two years I had kind of taken some time off work to kind of deal with that depression.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Maddi
I had a uterine cancer scare. I also had some serious depression going on. So it was just kind of that point in time that I just kind of realized that I just needed help and I needed to reach out to somebody. And I was kind of going through a little bit of a breakup and I was just kind of stuck because I wasn't happy at the job I was at and stuff either. So I didn't know where to turn.
Katherine Hurtig
That's a lot to deal with.
Maddi
Totally.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So walk me through a little bit about like before you reached out. So what kind of thoughts, feelings were you having? How was your depression kind of impacting your life?
Maddi
So my depression was kind of to the point where like I couldn't get out of bed. I couldn't do anything for myself. I wasn't taking care of myself. My anxiety was high to leave the house. It just kind of took over my life where like I couldn't do anything. And I was just suffering so badly. And I didn't really have a support network that I really could count on. So that's kind of what led me to where I am.
Katherine Hurtig
Is this your first experience with counselling?
Maddi
I have been in counselling off and on kind of my entire life.
Katherine Hurtig
Okay.
Maddi
I was diagnosed with depression when I was 13. So I've kind of off and on had counsellors throughout my life. I have been to the Calgary Counselling Centre before this year as well and have worked with several great counsellors here in the past. It just seems to be the most affordable.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Maddi
So that's where I could kind of lean on kind of that sliding scale for me as like I don't make very much income. And especially just being on EI, it was just kind of the best solution for me at the time to get some help.
Katherine Hurtig
I get it. Before I worked here years ago, I was a client as well. And that was one of the big things. It's like if you're going through depression, anxiety, and you also have to worry about the cost of getting help, it's just like another added layer of stress.
Maddi
Totally. And counselling should be more affordable, in my opinion, especially if you are kind of suffering as bad as I was at one point in time.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, it's a huge barrier for a lot of people.
Maddi
Yeah, it is, unfortunately.
Katherine Hurtig
So you kind of, you knew what to expect. You didn't have preconceived ideas about counselling.
Maddi
No, absolutely not. Just from experience in the past, I was more than happy and comfortable with potentially talking to somebody. And I just hit a wall. So I definitely knew that I needed to see counselling as soon as possible.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. This time around, what was, Do you remember what your first session was like?
Maddi
In a group or one-on-one?
Katherine Hurtig
Let's start with one-on-one.
Maddi
Yeah, so just because I've been to counselling before and I understand how it goes, I was pretty open kind of from the get-go. So I just felt comfortable enough to be able to like open up and get to the bottom of what I needed to get to.
Katherine Hurtig
Did anything surprise you about the counselling process here?
Maddi
No, honestly, I felt like it was pretty smooth, especially like when I filled out the form online right away within 24 to 48 hours, somebody had reached out to me.
Katherine Hurtig
Amazing
Maddi
And the only thing that I guess was kind of the downfall was at first I was working and then I got laid off of my job. So I had to switch counsellors because the counsellor just didn't have the available times that I did as she was more like evenings and weekends, which is what I had preferred when I was working. But when I switched to being off work, I was able to find a counsellor that kind of did some more of during the day counselling activities.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. So what kinds of things were you and your counsellor working on? What kinds of tools or strategies?
Maddi
I think that one's kind of a hard one for me because there was just so much information that was given to me kind of all the time. She had given me some reference books. There is a book that she gave me that is dealing with borderline personality disorder. And so like different triggers, you could just flip it to the page of like different triggers for that day. And you could read about like how you could deal with the trigger that day. Because if there was a day that I didn't have counselling and maybe I was struggling with like getting out of bed that day, I could look into my book and kind of figure out on my own what I could do for that day.
Katherine Hurtig
Perfect.
Maddi
So I feel like that was like the biggest tool that she kind of gave me where I could just kind of like roll over in bed, flip open my book and kind of figure out how to deal with it for that day.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, because that's the big thing, right? Like you can talk things out in counselling, but you need resources to be able to manage on the days on your own, you know?
Maddi
Totally. And I think that was also another reason why she had suggested the group counselling for me as well, just to be able to open up that support network and different people that are going through the same thing. So I wasn't feeling like I was alone.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Let's talk about group. What was the name of it?
Maddi
Take Charge of Your Life.
Katherine Hurtig
And how did you how did you find that? What was what was helpful?
Maddi
Honestly, it was just being in that group environment and just being with a bunch of other people that were so vulnerable and willing to get down to the root of their issues and be able to discuss. And I really connected with a lot of other people that are kind of going through the same thing or have some of the same issues like borderline personality disorder is also related to attachment issues. So was definitely able to talk to some other people that maybe had those attachment issues as well. It was really easy for me to divulge and relate to other people. The counsellors, for the most part, would create the framework of what we needed to talk about during that counselling session. But kind of when we broke out into groups, we were able to really talk and relate and have like those one on one discussions with other people.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Maddi
So that was probably the most helpful.
Katherine Hurtig
Again, years ago, I took the same group. And you're right, that connection to other people, especially with depression, it feels so isolating.
Maddi
It does.
Katherine Hurtig
You feel like I'm the only one who feels this way. I feel different and weird. But being in a room where seeing all these other people who initially look like they've got everything together, hearing that they feel the same way you do is just such a relief.
Maddi
Totally. It's really easing. And just being able to connect with somebody so deeply, as opposed to very surface level, changes everything entirely. Like, don't get me wrong, we were all really awkward the first day coming there and it was over Zoom.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Maddi
You only kind of get to know people's faces, which also kind of makes it a little bit easier because you're not sitting in a room with a bunch of different people's energy kind of flying at you all at once. And you're in the comfort of your own home to sit there and deal with some of the vulnerabilities that maybe you need to talk about or work through the program that they're given.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. I've loved that about online counselling is like you just sign in and but you have everything around you that you're comfortable with. And then if you log off, you're right there. There's no commute or…
Maddi
Absolutely. It makes it easy.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Were there people before counselling, during counselling? Who did you have in your life to support you? You have friends and family.
Maddi
I do. However, just at that point in time, I was just I was so depressed and I was kind of pushing those relationships away.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Maddi
And that's kind of how I knew that I was falling kind of in a deep pattern of depression is because I'm not an isolated individual. And I think that isolating myself from other people made me feel more alone than I actually was. I do have like my mom and a few friends that I can lean on more so now. But that was just kind of going through my journey and realizing that I can feel love and accepted by other people. And that was a big one for me. So the support network just kind of grew once I kind of realized that I could feel love from other people.
Katherine Hurtig
It's a tough thing because it's not intentional, but you do just kind of distance yourself from people. I know for me, I felt like such a burden. I was like, no, nobody wants to be around someone who's this sad. So I'm just not going to try.
Maddi
And that was entirely how I felt. Like I didn't want to burden other people's lives with what I was going through. It was just that isolating feeling that like nobody can completely entirely understand.
Katherine Hurtig
As you've gone through the counselling process, have there been people in your life who have noticed a change?
Maddi
You know, I've never directly asked them necessarily, but I do know one of my friends as I was going through the group counselling was kind of noticing you reaching out a little bit more. You're able to take a little bit more of that information and reiterate it out and make sure that you are able to describe your feelings for other people. And I feel like that is such an important thing in healing and just being able to show that appreciation to somebody else because you may feel the love from somebody else. But sometimes it's really hard to reciprocate that love.
Katherine Hurtig
What kind of stands out to you in the counselling process? Was there anything that was especially helpful?
Maddi
That's a good question.
Katherine Hurtig
I know you did mention that book, but were there any like tools or things that you kind of incorporated into your life that have helped you?
Maddi
I think a lot of it was definitely using my support system. Also just taking like small tools that I've learned. When my anxiety gets high, start with the five senses, naming those things. Just being able to kind of remember to give myself grace for only doing one productive thing. Even if I don't do anything else all day long, at least if I do a dish out of the dishes, that's one success. And it doesn't necessarily have to be consistent progression of getting everything done all at once. Just those small increment changes could make a huge difference because I was stuck with my motivation for so long, especially kind of being bedridden within my depression and just having that huge, heavy feeling on my shoulders all the time and just not really knowing where to put those emotions and also just getting down on myself all the time for not being completely successful in the progress that I wanted to make. It was just that honestly, her telling me like 1% better every day was enough for me to kind of get to the point.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I think, you know, especially now, there's just so much pressure to, you know, to be better, to be successful, to be productive. And that can really weigh on you.
Maddi
Absolutely.
Katherine Hurtig
But yeah, like even little steps, like you said, one dish, it just kind of adds up on top of each other. And then does that make sense?
Maddi
Yeah, it totally does. And I know that it seems silly and cliche, but just those small moments and being appreciative and being able to just check one thing off of a list a day was enough to just like ease that stress just even a little bit.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, like, what's that saying? Like action inspires more action, something like that. You know, like if you just do that one thing, then it motivates you to do something else.
Maddi
Yeah. And it definitely can because it kind of dominoes through.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So looking back, are there things that you can handle now that felt impossible before?
Maddi
I have been on medication for quite a few years. My depression kind of started when I had postpartum depression after having my daughter and it's just kind of gone on and on and on and it's never really ended. Just as of recently, I'm starting to lower my medication. So I feel like that that's huge progress in kind of that depression journey. I definitely also used to get really high strung about the small things, especially things that I couldn't control. And now that I've kind of realized what my circle of control is and what's outside of that circle and being identified kind of what's outside of that circle has really been able to realize that maybe I can't control how this person is going to react, but I can control how I'm going to react. And I can kind of rein that in and be able to communicate that as opposed to I used to get in a lot of arguments with people because I couldn't necessarily hold my emotions properly in the way that I wanted to. And once I kind of realized that my emotions were in my control and I can't necessarily control the other person's emotions.
Katherine Hurtig
Which is the hardest thing.
Maddi
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
To not wrap our head around, but to feel okay with, you know?
Maddi
Yeah. And just learning those boundaries, especially. Once I kind of figured out where my boundaries lie, I could always meet people where they're at. while still having them respect my boundaries.
Katherine Hurtig
Has that been kind of an interesting process, like the idea of boundaries and building those into your relationships?
Maddi
Yeah, it's definitely been hard. Like, I feel like there's kind of a confident side of building boundaries that you don't necessarily realize. But for mental health's sake, you need to develop those boundaries.
Katherine Hurtig
Completely, yeah. And you have a daughter. Yeah. That's amazing. How old is she?
Maddi
She's almost nine. Yeah. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
And has your mental health journey as counselling, has that helped you in that area?
Maddi
Yeah, absolutely. I feel like I've been able to kind of be a more present mom instead of being so stuck in my emotions all the time. So unfortunately, my daughter lives in Lethbridge with her father, but I have just been able to really work on my mental health status to be able to be the mom that I want to be and like talk on the phone more often, be able to kind of go out and visit her as often as I can or vice versa. So it's really helped in the mental health capacity.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, it must be huge.
Maddi
Yeah. And just even being a mom, she's just kind of been my motivation to get better as opposed to being in a dark place with like suicidal thoughts and just wanting to like end things. But if it wasn't for her, I don't think I would be where I'm standing today. She was my motivation to make sure that I get better.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally. And that's yeah, that's I think how it is so much. We're doing it for other people who want to be there for them.
Maddi
If I didn't have my daughter, I feel like it would definitely be like a different journey just because I really didn't think that I had much of a support system.
Katherine Hurtig
How did your counsellor support you through like the tough moments? I'm sure not every week was progressively amazing as you came in.
Maddi
It was definitely a hard road. There were many tears cried in sessions, but I always felt this kind of mom energy from her as I know that she had kids of her own. And so once she kind of saw me like starting to break down, she was like, it's OK. Have that moment and really like sit in that moment and how you feel. And then we can talk about it. And I think that being able to hold space for those heavy emotions was really empowering. And it was really great to just sit there with emotions, even if they were heavy, even if they were awful. But just making room for that, people just don't realize that it actually does really help.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, those uncomfortable emotions, we do often try to push them away or rush them. But when you actually do just let them happen, it's not as intense. It's not as difficult, if that makes sense. Did you find that?
Maddi
Yeah, you know, like radical acceptance for somebody like myself that's suffering with BPD and depression and ADHD is really hard sometimes. And just being able to kind of sit in that emotion and accept that that emotion was coming up was definitely a hard skill to develop because I didn't want to feel that way. But once I accepted that emotions kind of come and go and it's OK to hold space for those emotions, I was able to allow the acceptance to come in as well.
Katherine Hurtig
How would you describe the version of yourself that has come out of counselling?
Maddi
I definitely still think that I have a lot of work to do. I'm definitely not healed by any means, but I have been able to develop different coping skills. I've also been able to figure out that I can lean on my support system and that they're going to be there for me no matter what. And that was a huge realization for me because I always was able to show love for other people, but I was never able to feel the love back from them. And I think that alone just kind of skyrocketed and motivated the feeling of kind of feeling better as to where I was standing before to kind of where I am now.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Yeah. We need we need other people. We were not alone in this for sure.
Maddi
Yeah. We're super social. So we we do need social contact.
Katherine Hurtig
How do you feel now compared to when you started counselling?
Maddi
I feel lighter. I know that that seems a little weird…
Katherine Hurtig
No, not at all.
Maddi
I feel like I am able to think. I am able to not have so much brain fog. I have different coping skills to kind of work through things. Emotions aren't quite as heavy as they used to be. I'm not triggered as often.
Katherine Hurtig
It's exciting when you notice those things, hey?
Maddi
It's very exciting, especially being on meds for like the last nine years to be able to say that like I'm tapering off some medication because the medication was actually making my emotions worse than it was making them better I think is just a huge success because I'm a very sensitive person so not saying that I don't cry now everybody cries but it's just different because I'm not so overwhelmed by sadness all the time yeah and it definitely comes in spurts like not every day is easy, but it's manageable, which I feel like is huge.
Katherine Hurtig
It is. Yeah.
Maddi
And being content with where things are at and still trying to grow from that is a really good feeling.
Katherine Hurtig
You know, we all need to kind of better understand that having good mental health, it's not about never having bad days. It's about being able to handle them.
Maddi
Absolutely. And I kind of wish that the system was built a little bit differently to help people because usually when people are in those really deep depressive states, they need help in that moment, not like in the future or, you know, having to wait on that emotion, which is something that I appreciate from the Calgary Counselling Centre so much is because they reached out as soon as they could. And when I realized that I needed that help and they were able to be there for me within a day, that was really exciting for me to be able to try to take charge of my life again.
Katherine Hurtig
It's true. You want to feel better immediately.
Maddi
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
You don’t want to have to wait. Yeah. How do you take care of your mental health today?
Maddi
That one's kind of a tough question because I don't feel like it's just one thing that kind of helps my mental health. Realizing I have a support system is huge. Doing things for myself, whether that take a bath, take a shower, brush my teeth, get dressed in the morning, Simple things like that have kind of helped ease that. And I know that it seems simple and a lot of people take those small things for granted. But where I was at, I couldn't do those things for myself. I didn't have the energy. I didn't have the mindset. It was just easier to stay in bed all day than it was to try and take care of myself.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. Yeah. Yeah. We really underestimate those basics. If someone out there is struggling like you are and listening to this, what would you want to say to them?
Maddi
I just want them to know that they're not alone. They're really not. I feel like I'm getting emotional just kind of thinking about somebody who was in the same place that I am. And I just want them to know that they're absolutely not alone and there's help, whether that be the distress centre, the Calgary Counselling Centre, a different therapist. There's many ways and many routes out there that you can get better. You just got to hang on a little bit longer and you'll get the help that you need.
Katherine Hurtig
That's perfect. Said very well.
Maddi
My purpose of just trying to come here was to be able to show people that it's going to continue to get better and healing isn't linear. So it's going to be up and down probably your whole life. But just knowing kind of what those symptoms are of going down kind of a dark road, so to speak, there is help. You can reach out to somebody and somebody will help you.
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you so much, Maddi. Thank you for sharing your story and for opening up to me. And yeah, this is going to help somebody.
Maddi
I really hope so. Thank you so much for having me. It was fun.
Katherine Hurtig
If you've been feeling low, tired, or just not like yourself, you're not alone. From October 6th to 12th, head to areyoufeelingok.com and take a free confidential quiz. It's a simple way to check in on your mental health. It only takes a few minutes and can help point you towards the support you need. Brought to you by Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta.
Tune in on October 21st for our next episode about how to find the right counsellor. You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in. This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, Manuel Montano, Jenna Forbes, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Sarah Rosenfeld and Maddi.
To stay up to date on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe. We're available in your favorite podcast app. Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling to anyone in Alberta with no waitlist and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com and counsellingalberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the U.S., seek help from your general medical practitioner.