Season 2, Episode 7: Real Stories of Building Self-Esteem
Self-esteem influences how we view ourselves and the world around us, which directly impacts our mental health. Low levels of self-esteem can lead to feelings of inadequacy, worthlessness, and hopelessness, creating a cycle of self-doubt and negative thoughts. In our last episode, we explored the intricacies of self-esteem and its impact on our lives. Today, we’re taking it a step further and hearing from two CCC clients who have lived through its challenges first-hand.
On today’s episode of Living Fully, our host Katherine Hurtig talks with clients Brad and Jessie about their personal stories, what they were going through, and their experiences with counselling and the Building Esteem group program. Katherine also speaks with Annemarie Rued-Fraser, a registered psychologist, to learn the benefits of group counselling and why it can be a beneficial tool for addressing self-esteem concerns.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully, a podcast dedicated to enhancing your mental well-being. Each episode explores valuable insights and practical strategies to help you lead a more fulfilling life. I'm your host. Katherine Hurtig.
Today's episode is a little different from our usual discussions. In our last episode we explored the intricacies of self-esteem and its impact on our lives, and today we're taking it a step further. We’re not just talking about self-esteem. We're hearing from two people who have lived through its challenges firsthand.
In this episode we'll be joined by two Calgary Counselling clients, Brad and Jesse. They'll share their personal stories discussing what they were going through, their experiences with counselling, and their time in the Building Esteem group program. We'll talk with Annemarie Rued-Fraser, psychologist at Calgary Counselling Centre. She's going to provide expert insights into the benefits of group counselling and why it can be a powerful tool for addressing self-esteem concerns.
Brad
My name is Brad, I have lived in Calgary for about the last 25 years or so. I teach middle school and I've got a couple of daughters. They're also middle school age. Yeah, I really enjoy what I do. I'm just really curious. I love learning. That's just a part of who I am and a part of what I've chosen to do with my time and how I can I guess, be useful in the world. And I really like it.
Katherine Hurtig
So what subject do you teach?
Brad
A little bit of everything, primarily humanities, language arts, and social studies, but math and science, and phys-ed as well.
Katherine Hurtig
So Brad, what brought you into Calgary Counselling Centre. What was going on?
Brad
I was looking for help because I came to realize that I was feeling stuck with some things that had troubled me for a long, long time. I realized patterns of thinking that had been problematic for me probably since my late teens, definitely young adulthood and definitely into my professional life, I was stuck. I worked really really hard to project this image of someone who had things together because I felt like that was my responsibility as a teacher. That was my responsibility as a parent. I wanted to be a good friend and I wanted to do it all really really well, and I found that the weight of all of this was increasingly heavy and I knew that there were so many ways I was not doing a good job of carrying all of this. I was like the proverbial duck, I guess, where everything looked smooth on the surface and underneath the surface I was paddling frantically and I was stuck, and those who knew me well, also knew it was taking a toll on me and I needed help. But I had a very very difficult time asking for help. So I hadn't cultivated many relationships where I could be vulnerable, felt like it was safe to be vulnerable and I have since learned that I come from a long line of loved ones who, you know, have probably dealt with the same thing.
Katherine Hurtig
And you're not alone there, I think. Yeah, that's something that a lot of us just don't learn growing up. And it's not really the fault of our parents because they weren't taught that either.
Brad
Yeah. I think that's true. One of the things that was a relief coming to the Calgary Counselling Centre and getting involved first individually in therapy and then also in some group sessions was I was able to develop this structure around me, of trusting relationships where I could regularly sort of reorient myself in the company of people who were exploring similar things and finding a place where, OK, it's OK to realize. Yeah, actually there are other people who are going through similar things and finding a little bit of hope and where I maybe felt like I didn't. OK, it's OK to admit that this is getting away from me. I don't know exactly how to pull it back on my own. And in fact, that's actually most of us don't know how to just pull it back on our own, and that's not that unusual. That's OK.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah that's a huge thing with mental health stuff, it feels so isolating. You feel like you're the only one thinking the way you do. The only one feeling what you're feeling. And it's. Yeah. So I think that's a really good thing about the group programs. So before I worked at Calgary Counselling Centre I was a client as well and I participated in a group program and that was one of the best parts about it for me. Yeah, realizing that a bunch of other people are going through the same stuff.
Brad
The sense of loneliness, the sense of lack. There's, you know, there's obviously, because I mean, I'm hyper-self-critical. And it was not difficult for me to offer generosity of spirit to other people and then go home and be heavily self-critical. And think that I was hiding that. But then I would present in a way other people could see I was unhappy. And they didn't know if I was unhappy with other people or but they knew I was unhappy with myself and I knew I was unhappy with myself and it just became more and more exhausting to carry this on. And the solution was not necessarily to find a better way to be more perfect. The solution was actually to find better tools to just bring out the stuff that was going on and actually be honest about it and say, you know what, there's not necessarily even a cure for all of that stuff. But there are some effective ways of working with it and sorting it out and maybe figuring out what's actually going on. And it's not necessarily even a blanket diagnosis of you know, “sick,” there might be a few things that we can figure out. Maybe we can actually put a name on a few things that are happening. Help you feel like it's not such an ominous thing that you have to carry that, you know, we can help you know some of that stuff and we can help you find some tools that will help you work when you're having your own come back and talk about it a little bit share that, with a few other people. They can say here's what's working for me and then find a little bit of hope in that.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. So before you came in, what kinds of thoughts were you having? What were you feeling?
Brad
I would say. It was not at all uncommon for me to tell myself that I was definitely half the man I should be. Most guys at my stage of life have already got this figured out. And do not need help. Most people like me have got things together at this point, and if they can figure it out, why can't I? There's something pretty wrong with me. I felt pretty awful about that and things got pretty dark.
Katherine Hurtig
That sounds like a lot of pressure.
Brad
Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was awful. There were times I also knew. OK, it is going to get better. This is going to pass. I could tell myself this is going to pass. I'm not always going to feel this way. But then it would go up and down and I knew that I needed some help to level off a little bit better so that I could figure out a way to actually enjoy being the person that I figured I probably was.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Brad
I figured that probably was a person that I could enjoy being with more often. If I could figure out a way to get that guy to just this. That sounds like a silly way of putting it, but just appreciate
Katherine Hurtig
No, no, that makes sense.
Brad
Appreciate being who Brad is more often, without being so hard on him.
Katherine Hurtig
I mean that's excellent that you were able to recognize that, you know, OK, something's not quite right here. Let's try to figure this out and get some help. I think not enough people do that.
Brad
I often would say to myself, you know, if one of my daughters came to me, what would I say to her or one of my one of my students even was, you know, sharing this with me? How would I speak to them? Couldn't I speak to myself the way that I would speak to one of them? And it entirely reorients my perspective, of course I can offer generosity and love and warmth and acceptance, and encouragement. So how can I find a way to turn that around and offer that to myself? That's what I wanted, was to be able to do that for myself.
Katherine Hurtig
But you just didn't quite know how to get there?
Brad
I did not know how to get there with any consistency and not to be able to say, hey Brad, everything's cool. Do whatever you want. Anything you want to do is fine with me, Brad, that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is obviously to be able to give myself a reasonable amount of grace that I can offer to other people with consistency, why can't I offer that to myself? Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Mm-hmm. How did you find that process of initially reaching out for help? Like was it?
Brad
Yeah, yeah, pretty straightforward and help is accessible. Easy to be in touch with someone who can provide the information that I need. Yeah. Find somebody who was able to say, OK, I think sounds like, here's what you're looking for. I think we can help you with that. And we can make it work with your circumstances and with the time constraints of your work and your family, and we can make this fit for you.
Katherine Hurtig
Perfect. What were some of the things that you worked on with your counsellor?
Brad
A part of the work that we did focused on analyzing the kinds of things that I was talking to myself about when I was talking to myself. The kinds of circumstances that were bringing up the feelings that were most troublesome feelings and the kinds of patterns that were bringing up the feelings that were that were most problematic.
Katherine Hurtig
So you've talked about your daughters. What other kind of support did you have with what you're going through? And, you know, through the counselling process?
Brad
I have some close friends and I have some family with whom I've been able to talk about some of the things that I'm exploring. It can be tricky because it's easier for me to speak openly, speak freely with the people that I know from my groups about the things that I'm experiencing. I am very very thankful that people like my parents, my brother and some of my friends have been willing to listen to me talk about what I'm going through. I realized I'm a real internalizer. While I was trying to figure out what was going on for me and internalizing all of this stuff. I was probably actually robbing other people of an opportunity to help me that they would have been willing to offer if I had been willing to reach out and ask for help, they probably would have helped me, or at least they would have been willing to listen, at least even if they had no insight to offer or no wisdom. They would at least have been willing to listen. And I didn't give them that opportunity because I was so convinced that it was important for me to project this image that I was OK. I was here to help other people and that's what my obligation was to help other people.
Katherine Hurtig
You touched on this a little bit, but as a man, was that even harder, I guess. I mean, you don't have anything else to compare it to, but. Is it hard to reach out? To talk about mental health? Do you find that that is like a barrier?
Brad
I think I definitely grew up with this idea culturally, socially. I took on board this idea that it was definitely my job to be an achiever, a provider, to have things together, to be reliable, responsible, to be correct, nature or nurture. I definitely carry this and then drill this into myself. But I think I certainly looked at other men around me and I compared what was going on inside me to what I could see on the outside of them. And I never measured up was how I saw it.
One of the things that I learned along the way was to listen to stories and to identify rather than compare and try and see ways in which I could identify with other things that people were going through. And stop comparing myself. And remember that everyone has their stuff and most of that I can't see.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Brad
Everyone has their stuff.
Katherine Hurtig
Let's talk a bit about the group program, do you remember the title of the group program?
Brad
I was involved in Take Charge of Your Life. I was also involved in Building Esteem.
Katherine Hurtig
Oh, excellent. You did both. Yeah. What kinds of things did you work on in those group programs? What kinds of tools did you find beneficial?
Brad
One of the books that we looked at was called Breaking the Patterns of Depression by a guy named Yapko?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Michael Yapko
Brad
Michael Yapko. Really good introduction to understanding depression, which is something that I've been dealing with. And reorienting the way that I was thinking about depression and understanding maybe that it was something that I wasn't necessarily trying to cure, but something to find strategies to manage and deal with.
One of the things that I think that was helpful about that for me was that I began to think of it rather than as this sort of this spectre that's going to kind of always haunt me until I find some way to, to defeat it and clear it away. I began to think of it as simply this reality that I'm going to accept its presence and I'm going to acknowledge it and set it to the side. I'm going to work with it, and I'm going to recognize what it does. I'm not going to be surprised when it's sending the messages that I know it sends. I'm going to just regard that as unsurprising. And then I'm going to let those go by when they come up. Using whatever strategy I need to use at the time.
Katherine Hurtig
I can totally relate. It's like I had this thought in my head like I needed to conquer depression. And if I, you know, do all these right things, then it'll just go away. And that'll be the end of it. And so I would get hard on myself. Like when, you know, I'd have these thoughts and feelings again, that would come up. It's like, that's not how it works. You learn and build up tools to manage it.
Brad
And reorienting the way that I thought about this helped me to say, OK, I don't have to just keep smacking against this wall, actually and just stop fighting this exhausting fight. That's not what it's about. I'm going to just accept that its there. What am I going to learn from this? And about this, what I'm going to learn from this, it's not going to surprise me. I regard this as unsurprising when it sends up these messages. I'm just going to decide what to do with this. I'm not going to deny that it's there. I'm also not going to let it obscure everything else that I want to see about life, about what's going on in life. And I'm not going to let it dominate what I'm thinking right now. So fine. OK, it's there. But it's also not the only thing I see. And it's also not the main thing I see. And there are various ways that I can think about that, tools that I can use.
For me personally, I have appreciated and really benefited from having a weekly appointment to gather with a group of relatively like-minded individuals. The details of our stories are not all the same, but many of the themes we bring to the table are the same. We share some of those things in common, and we also share in common this commitment to graciously accept one another's stories and welcome one another to bring part of the struggle. Share part of the struggle, hold it together, ask what's happening, and then share what's working and what's not working. And I heard this expression, which I like, weaving the fabric of the community and it's not just community, because people find community all over the place, but it's a focused, intentional, purposeful community and also with generous and insightful professional input and guidance in that as well. Having that weekly appointment to do that and then having that on my schedule weekly.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that accountability.
Brad
It provides some accountability, it pulls me back in, gives me that weekly check-in and then it begins to build a new pattern and make a new path.
Katherine Hurtig
I like how you said that it's not just a community. I can't remember the word you used, but it was intentional, you know, and having that focus of support.
Brad
Yeah, yeah, intentional.
Our facilitators weren't there necessarily to… they weren't there to talk at us. They were there to support and to help give helpful guidance. And also their insights, you know they didn't dominate the discussion but they also were able to point out things that we would have missed, right? I think their experience enables you know, having walked this path with a lot of people enables them to see things and help us to see things that we can then have those aha moments.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Brad
Which then we, you know, I mean, I hold on to those things right then those become a part of my sort of collection of experiences that I can go back to. And say OK yeah, I remember this. I know this for myself now.
Katherine Hurtig
That's a great way to look at it. Like the kind of the role of those counsellors in the group room.
What do you think is like one of the most valuable takeaways from counselling that you've had?
Brad
A challenge and some specific insights into a way to practice better self-compassion. I really think for me it is a very important piece that has been missing. I confess that I still struggle with exercising self-compassion and I'm beginning to, I mean, I'm smiling now and I feel a little bit silly even about saying this because I still struggle to look in a mirror and say something positive to myself. I recall a sketch from Saturday Night Live where there's a character who, Stuart Smalley, who says I'm good enough, I'm smart enough. And doggone it, people like me. And I just recall how funny that was. And I can't. I almost cannot take myself seriously when I say something positive to myself, I begin to mock myself almost. But at the same time, I recognize how deeply meaningful it is when I think about offering real affirmation to someone I care about. My daughter, one of my daughters or a student of mine who might be struggling and how deeply concerned I might be that they get this. You know, I can say this to them. Listen, I am way more interested in how we get through this together. Understanding what you do when you're not getting this and how you struggle through it tells me so much more about you as a learner, and as a person who's growing than if you just got it right the first time every time. So this is fine for you to grow. I want to turn that around to be able to say that to myself. Now that's nothing to mock. That is nothing to make light of. And yet I can't. I just, for the life of me, you know?
Katherine Hurtig
Well, that's like the whole process of self-compassion, right is, you know, I think that's what we should kind of all aim for is not being perfect. It's kind of being OK with the fact that we're not. And yeah, you will still struggle with it sometimes.
Brad
Yes.
Katherine Hurtig
But no, I understand. Yeah, you've talked about this like it's so easy to think kindly about people around us, but turning it on ourselves like being hard on ourselves feels just as easy, which is weird.
Brad
I feel like I'm doing something so noble when I criticize myself. If I'm being hard on myself, you know, good leaders expect the utmost from themselves. Yeah, no.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Where does it really get us?
So Brad, how do you feel now like being willing to, you know, to come in here and Share your story? That must feel kind of empowering.
Brad
Yeah, I feel. OK. You know, I'll be honest. I feel like at times I still struggle. There's not going to be a time when difficulties do not come along.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. That's inevitable.
Brad
That's how life's gonna go. And so I'm learning, and I'm growing and I'm not where I think I wish I was, but I am working hard to get where I want to be.
Katherine Hurtig
Do you have any advice for someone thinking the way you thought and feeling the way you felt?
Brad
I think it's really important to recognize that everybody has their stuff. For people who are like me, who are feeling alone in it, taking a step to reach out probably feels very difficult. And once it's done, there can be so much relief that can be so worth it.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that first step. It's hard, but it's important.
Brad
Hard but important. Because having had the experience myself, I understand it can initially be intimidating, but that taking the risk can be very rewarding. I understand what it's like to enter into a group and then break the ice. And come to the realization. That the people, the other people in. This group was feeling that way too. There is something about having that experience coming through on the other side and going. I didn't know what I didn't know, and now that I do know, I actually wouldn't want to go back. But the only way to get that is to be willing to step through, step through onto the other side. And that can be scary for sure.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally.
Brad
And there's no denying that it’s scary, but it's worth it. It's worth taking the risk.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Yeah, it's important to have that, that open mind and yeah, be willing to learn things you weren't aware of and to make change. And that's, I mean, that's hard for everybody for sure, but.
Brad
Yeah. Yeah, it's a safe way to do it.
Katherine Hurtig
Was there anything else that you wanted to talk about? Anything else about your story that you want people to know?
Brad
I feel like I should have something inside.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, no, you've given us so much. I want to thank you so much for it's been such a delight chatting with you and hearing your story. Thank you so much.
…
Both Jesse and Brad participated in the Building Esteem group program at Calgary Counselling Centre. I reached out to Annemarie Rued-Fraser, psychologist at Calgary Counselling Centre, to learn more about group counselling and the Building Esteem group program.
Annemarie Rued-Fraser
Group counselling is all about the dynamics happening between the various people in the group. Whereas individual counselling is mainly about what's happening inside the one individual as well as the supportive relationship between the client and the therapist. In group counselling you have so many more interactions contributing to the dynamics. And the influence of the peer group becomes that much more important.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. How does that help someone having those other people around with a similar goal? How does that help the process?
Annemarie Rued-Fraser
What I've heard from clients who've completed groups with us has been that it's been so validating to hear people of their age and other ages and backgrounds have the same experiences, the same lived experiences as them, that they're not alone, both in their emotional experience and in their general experience. And being able to hear from other people going through some of the same things, how to think about it differently, how to address it differently, it lands differently when it comes from someone living through the same thing as you rather than a counsellor.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I don't know, sitting down with a counsellor, I kind of put them on a pedestal. Like they know more about this stuff than me. They're better than me.
Annemarie Rued-Fraser
But you hear it differently.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, totally.
Annemarie Rued-Fraser
Yeah. And then it's not just about someone like a professional who can listen to you and hear you and provide you with some suggestions. It's about another person who is out there with you in the world at various times and they have tried this and it worked for them and now you can do the same thing.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. So in the Building Esteem program specifically, what kinds of issues or concerns are commonly addressed and what would someone learn if they were in that group?
Annemarie Rued-Fraser
So it looks at understanding your concept of self. Are you still maintaining some of those negative ways of thinking that you might have internalized? How are your relationships? Doing a quick check-in on your relationships and how are you communicating in them? Are they healthy? Do you have your roles understood? Additionally, do you have a healthy expectation of yourself and others of your image, your body, your role in society. We’ll look at how you're choosing to live your life. Are you living your life in accordance with your personal values?
Katherine Hurtig
What are some of the benefits of participating in group counselling compared to just individual counselling?
Annemarie Rued-Fraser
You are getting a shared experience that is then mirrored back to you through your peers. You get to learn from them vicariously, rather than just from your own personal experience. You get feedback, immediate feedback from them. It also becomes like a stage upon which to practice some of the skills that you're learning before using them in the real world in a way that you wouldn't necessarily be able to do as an individual counselling. Yeah, it's a much safer context in which to do that.
Katherine Hurtig
I've run into that in my own counselling. It's like, OK, well this is something you could do, go out and practice. It's like oh, I don't know exactly who I can do that with that would get it. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So, Annemarie, I would assume that with any organization that offers group counselling, it's going to look a little different, but typically with Calgary Counselling Centre, how many people are in a group program.
Annemarie Rued-Fraser
We will go ahead with running a scheduled group when there are a minimum of seven people registered. And the cap, the maximum is 14. Once we get to 14, it becomes really difficult to manage all of those relationships.
Katherine Hurtig
Right, OK. And so I know that that's one of our prerequisites for the group. That someone has to have, you know, a few individual counselling sessions first, why is that?
Annemarie Rued-Fraser
It's so that we can assess what some of the priority issues might be collaboratively. The client will speak with the therapist collaboratively to determine are appropriate to move into the group. Is this the right group for your specific needs or do we need to work on this individually first and then move you into groups? And sometimes it does require a conversation with somebody because we might have a blind spot. Other times it might be Oh yeah. Good to go. Carry on. Yeah, we do want to ensure, however, that a person isn't in a significant level of distress because that is not going to work in their favour. They're going to have more difficulty potentially attending a weekly group, for the course of 14 weeks. It's still a commitment over the course of fourteen weeks. We also need to determine what is going to be a manageable fee for them to attend the group because our group fee is managed on a sliding scale as well.
Katherine Hurtig
Excellent. Yeah. Annemarie, how do we quote, UN quote Calgary Counselling Centre, how do we measure progress or success in group counselling?
Annemarie Rued-Fraser
Just like individuals coming in for therapy and counselling complete their vital signs before every session, they still do that when they're attending group sessions. And so the scores from the first session of the group right to the end of group are compared to determine has the group actually helped and for the group purposes themselves, there's usually a group of questionnaires that people are asked to complete so that we can compare their scores pre-group and post-group.
Katherine Hurtig
OK, so not just the outcome questionnaire?
Annemarie Rued-Fraser
Correct. I mean, we do know that research has shown that positive gains achieved in individual counselling are maintained more consistently and for longer when people attend group after having finished individual treatment. And so the group aspect of treatment is extremely beneficial and one might even say necessary if you wish to maintain the positive gains that you've made in your counselling.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Yeah, I could see it just solidifying those lessons and you kind of reinforce that idea of commitment. And it's just one more area where it's like, OK, you gotta come every week. That solidifies that habit forming, right?
Annemarie Rued-Fraser
Accountability.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Awesome. Thank you.
Annemarie Rued-Fraser
You're welcome.
Jesse
Hi, I'm Jessica. I have been a mother for the past 10 years, which, you know, it does a lot for myself. I have to dedicate a lot of my time to my children. So it's really important to me to have a good life relationship with myself. I'll say in the sense that I have been a single mom and so therefore I don't get time to work on myself as much as my kids, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
So Jesse where are you from? What do you do?
Jesse
I'm from Grande Prairie and the thing I do is I am a stay-at-home Mom so I pretty much just take my time and raise my kids right now. I recently just had a baby as well, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that keeps you busy.
Jesse
It keeps me very busy and at the same time to focus on the well-being of myself and my like, my mental health and just, you know, a healthier way that people should react or, you know, communicate and just have the relationship with themselves is very important because this is something that I'll be teaching my children as well.
Katherine Hurtig
Awesome. Yeah, it's a very important lesson. How did you find out about us?
Jesse
Yes through victim services, they offered me funding for my well-being and through the funding I asked them if there was any way that I could find counselling in the sense of just, you know, making sure I'm doing better, bettering myself and they pointed me in direction of Calgary Counselling and I talked to a counsellor for a while and I told them that I would like to be a part of a group. I think it's so beneficial to talk to people who are going through the same thing or who want to do the same kind of bettering as you do.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course, yeah.
Jesse
So a group is so beneficial in that way in the sense that when you go to a group you usually find like-minded people and therefore you can do a group with people that also want to better themselves, you learn so much because of the other aspects and the other perspectives.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. So what were you going through that led you to want to improve your mental health?
Jesse
At the time, when I was with victim services and they approached me with this, there was a domestic dispute and there was, you know, just a partnership thing, my partner and I were, you know, we were fighting and stuff and at the same time I have had abuse since I was a child and I give people the benefit of the doubt instead of letting myself have those boundaries and have my self-esteem. I wanted to learn how to keep my self-worth to me. You know, when someone does shame me or someone who has put me down. I don't take it so personally.
Katherine Hurtig
Right, yeah, that sounds like a bit of a hard time and that would cause a lot of stress.
Jesse
My stress was up for sure. The program was so understanding and it taught me a lot about myself in the sense of how society affects you and how just your brain affects you, how your family affects you, and how your partner affects you. And you know, like when you think about your mental health, you do have to take the world around you in the sense of that because it affects you. And you don't even know your mind is in use, so you do control what should affect you. But the outside world affects you so much.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. How was your life being affected by what you were going through and the feelings you were having?
Jesse
My self-talk was not the best, I'll say. And I took whatever my outside world said to me, and I did take it to heart, or I did put it in the front place. The world thinks it's about me. My partner thinks it's about me. You know, I should probably fix this.
Katherine Hurtig
Did you have any ideas about what counselling would be like before you came in?
Jesse
No, not really. I've never really taken counselling before. This felt like a no-judge zone in the sense of, you know, I wanted to be there, and it was more like growing with me, I'll say like, yeah, the group seemed to want me to grow it. It helped me grow so much in that sense that the outlook was like, we want you to do better, we want you to excel.
Katherine Hurtig
You felt like you were encouraged to make progress.
Jesse
Yes, that's exactly it there and like and the thing was the people in that group as well had that kind of energy like we want to make progress. So it was very beneficial in that sense that not only did the teachers want you to make progress, but all the people around you in the group also because they were there because they wanted to be there. They also wanted you to make progress. To do good, you know, it just felt so good. Like, it's gonna stick with me. Everyone was like, hey, we're doing this to better ourselves. No shame. We might feel down on ourselves once in a while. We might have done the wrong things once in a while, but we were trying to better ourselves and since everyone was participating, had that kind of energy, it was very beneficial.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, that's a great mindset. Did you see a counsellor one-on-one before joining the group right?
Jesse
Yes I did.
Katherine Hurtig
How were those sessions?
Jesse
They were great. My counsellor was a great listener. Every time I talk to him, I never feel like he's biased. I never feel like he's judging me, which is great. He asked so many questions about me personally, not like prying or stepping over his toes, but he was very thoughtful with his questions as well as like, and he took the time to understand. Which was really nice. It helps me understand myself too, right?
Katherine Hurtig
You came in knowing right away that you wanted to participate in a group program?
Jesse
I didn't know that there were group programs, to be honest. I thought that it was going to be like I didn't know what there was to be provided. Because I live in Grand Prairie. And it is in Calgary. So there's that kind of distance thing that I, you know, like maybe I would have to live in Calgary to be able to participate or whatnot. Right. As we continued talking, my counsellor and I, I do believe he realized that I wanted something that had people like me you know, that were people that just wanted to better themselves. People aren't feeling the same way as me, but they give you different perspectives. They give you different lessons. They have different stories altogether like when you have a group and you can relate to the people that are also in it helps you learn a lot.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally. Before I started working at Calgary Counselling Centre, I took a group program as well. And yeah, it just, I mean, everyone has a different story and is going through different things. But you put yourself in a group like that and you just feel so much less alone.
Jesse
Right. And that was the idea for me. It's like I was like, if I'm in a Group and I talk about these things, maybe I won't feel so alone and it works out like that for everyone in the group kind of deal, right? So everyone kind of just proceeds to do better because they know they're not alone, right?
Katherine Hurtig
Right, So what are the kinds of things that you worked on with your counsellor, or the kinds of skills that you learned in the group that has helped you?
Jesse
Well, OK, the class that I took was about self-esteem. So one of the core things were your value, like your self-value like how you see yourself in the world. Setting your boundaries, and knowing yourself worth, things that we learned were how to communicate to someone when they are being kind of demeaning to you, right? How to take it in the sense of like, is this important or is this just the other person? Then, knowing who you are is a really important thing in that sense of like self-worth, and knowing what you want to do as well, like to, you know, not have incidents like that or like you know and how you can react and approach it in the right light so that you know that you're not devaluing yourself.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Those resonated with you?
Jesse
They did. I do have a childhood of abuse in the sense that my self-worth is all over the place. When abuse happens in a family you question your worth. So my self-worth is not as sturdy as it should be. But after the group I feel like, you know I'm more sturdy in it, you know, especially since you talk to people with experiences kind of like your’s. There was a lot that we learned, to be honest. I'm sure everyone took it differently, you know, we learned about how society tells us we should look and sound a certain way. Right? And perfection is not achievable. And you can do better. You can always do better and better and better. But you'll never do things perfectly right.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Jesse
Like never, always are things in conversations. Like when someone says you never do this, or you always do this. Those aren't realistic, right? Yeah. Like little things like that. And big things like that, like cause society is such a big thing. And the way that you talk to yourself is inside of you right. And I learned a lot from the group. It was so beneficial. It's gonna stick with me, but I'm going to keep it close for as long as I can, for sure. And to be honest, it just helps me with my kids. You know, the kids. If I have good self-esteem and I teach them to have good self-esteem or to have good self-worth and care about themselves, you know more than what people have to say about them and be kind people. It just helps me out in raising good people.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally. Yeah, I think, I mean, that's something that people don't realize is that working on improving your mental health, it not only helps you but it helps your relationships with the people around you. Yeah. It's amazing.
Jesse
That's another reason why I wanted to do the counselling and do the group because I have kids. So I'm dealing with people every day. They're just little people and little people love to test you, right? So the fact that I have these little people who like to test me is not as much as adults do. Right, like they don't have the extremes as adults do, it puts my foot in a better direction towards teaching them about, you know, emotions, self-esteem, boundaries, and all those things. And it was so beneficial.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, those are such important things to learn early on.
Jesse
Very true. That's so true. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
So what about working with your counsellor? Anything you're working on that really helped you?
Jesse
My counsellor would give me little tips. You know, when you're going through something, you always ask yourself why and like sometimes there is no why. You cannot control people, right? Cause sometimes I'd be like, why is this person doing this? And you know? And he would say there is no why? Like, this is what that person is doing, right? That's the thing about it, it's like you can't approach it on why they're doing it. They're doing it and you just have to figure out a way of either like, do I want that in life? Can we change this? And if this continues to persist to find a solution in myself, to make myself feel safe, right? Usually if there is a why. It's something that’s uneasy, something you're fearing, something that you don't want happening, right? He pretty much taught me that my life is up to me. Like when someone gets mad at me. It's whether I want to take that in or not or be like that's your, you know, that's on you. Right. Because when people get mad at me, I tend to take it on.
Katherine Hurtig
I know what you mean.
Jesse
Right.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, it's hard not to personalize that.
Jesse
I feel like he made it more robust that I don't take on people. Just like he gave me simple little things like that. Like he's like there's no why, it just is. You don't ask yourself why you just don't control people. You control yourself. But I'm not gonna lie. When I went to my counselling for the first time, I was very stressed like we did a little stress test thing and he said he said I was way above the stress level.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Jesse
You know what I'm like, 2-3 weeks of talking to him, my stress went down so much. Like it really did!
Katherine Hurtig
That is that questionnaire that you fill out every time. What did you think of that? Do you find that was helpful?
Jesse
I did. I noticed that the questions were the same every week, but I noticed every week my answers would change a little, right? Like wow, this week I feel like this and that week I felt like this, but they're the same questions so things can change in a week about your feelings and stuff, right? It was very beneficial to answer those questions and they were the same questions every week, over and over, just to see how I felt how I felt personally about things.
Katherine Hurtig
And that kind of shows that it's all fluid, right? And like you said, things can change. So that can instill some hope. Hey?
Jesse
Yeah, right. And the thing is like, even though your stress is not the end of the world, it's you should you have to work on it? Like if your stress level is high, you have to figure out where you might have to let things go, where you need to pick things up more and stuff.
Katherine Hurtig
What is it like in your community? I mean, I know how things are in Calgary, but is mental health something that's talked about in Grand Prairie?
Jesse
I've lived there for four years. People care about it, but it isn't something that is taken as important. It depends on who you talk to in that sense, right? At the same time I always take it seriously. If I'm like someone's not giving me what I think is needed, I will go look elsewhere in that sense, right? Or I will try to find the best resource I can to feel welcome to feel like I'm getting what I need.
Katherine Hurtig
So how do you feel now.
Jesse
The fact that I could share my experiences and my stories with the group and just have everyone listen and be supportive, lets me release things that were bothering me and it also makes me feel like it's OK, you know, like it was OK that you have these experiences you're working on to better yourself now and that's so good for you. Like they were very encouraging. They never, ever took my story and was like, well, you know what you should have done this and this differently causes you to know. You can't change the past, but they're very welcoming and supportive and as well as they pretty much just said I am here for you, right. And the fact that they said they gave me this feeling, I'm there for you was so healing as well.
Katherine Hurtig
Amazing. What are some of the things you learned that you still, incorporate day-to-day.
Jesse
I would say self-talk is something that I've incorporated in the sense of like this and everyone has a moment where they're like, oh, I could have done better. So when I have those moments, if I could have done better, I add to that like, well, I did the best I could right now. Right. So even if I have, like, a little bit of negative talk I always try to add a spin to it and it's helped tremendously and just my worth in the way that I see it myself.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, just catching those in the moment. Those times that you're negative and switching it eventually it just gets easier and more automatic, yeah.
Jesse
And it's definitely, yeah! And that was something we talked about in the class as well. It's like you might, you might do this one day and the next day you might be like, oh, this is not alike, this is like dumb, don't do this, but. If you keep it up, if you keep doing it eventually, the practice gets better and you it's not work at all, right? And that was the thing, too, it's like the classes were, I think, I don't know. I mean, it was for a couple of months too. It was so nice to look forward to going to it every week. I mean, there was almost a drive sometimes and sometimes like, oh, I got class this week or I have this group this week. I don't know what I'm gonna do, but like, every time you went, it was so beneficial. Like after you did the class, you felt so good. But I would say. Yeah the self-talk was good and in our group actually in the beginning we were said to set smart goals and the smart goal was achievable, something that you needed like you should do for yourself in the sense of growing. And the self-goal since we had the self-goal from the beginning to the end, it was always incorporated into the program. So you kind of had to do the practice right, like you had to.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, you got to do the work.
Jesse
Yeah. Which was beneficial too. I feel like the self or the smart goal that they had incorporated into the group was such a smart idea, because you did it through the whole group and then at the end of the group they said so how's your smart goal going? Just for the fact that you were focused when you had that smart goal for the whole group, it kind of just is something that you had to practice and so it kind of just stays with you right?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And it gives you that accountability like you know you have to talk about it with this group of people so it kind of keeps you in check.
Jesse
Right. Yeah. And to be honest, by the time the group was done, everyone was pretty much like I'm keeping my self goal, right? Like at the end of the group, everyone's like, I'm going to keep working on this and that was. It's so good to see that too, right? Like that people are like. This is so beneficial. I'm gonna keep doing this.
Katherine Hurtig
Well, do you have any advice for someone who might be in a similar situation as you?
Jesse
I would say if anyone was in a similar situation as me or like, you know, worried about their mental health and wanted to work on themselves like group is such a great thing. When you get into a group of people, especially a group of people where you know they're just living their lives and they're just trying to do better, they give such a perspective to you and they also teach you, like I must say I got a lot of things off of the people in my group. And how they approach situations and how they find solutions to situations. It was nice to hear that people with you know regular jobs and regular lives also have struggles like you and they all have to find solutions to their struggles like you know, like, it's not just you, you're not alone. Your life is going to push you down, right? Because sometimes when you're trying to better yourself, you have someone there trying to tell you this is not worth it, right? It's nice to have a counsellor that will lift you up, but as a person of, like, you know, you know that counsellor is there to push you up, right? You know, that's what the counsellor is going to do but to have a group of people push you up. It's just such a different feeling. It feels so good.
Katherine Hurtig
It's so great to hear that you had a good experience.
Jesse
I really did.
Katherine Hurtig
Sorry, was there anything else? That is what you wanted me to ask? Anything else about your story you want people to know?
Jesse
I just want like, if someone is having mental issues or something. You know, reach out, reach out! And see what you have available around you. These are why it's so important to keep your mental health in a good place.
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to Living Fully, thanks for tuning in. This episode is produced by Luiza Campos, Jenna Forbes and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Brad, Jesse and Annemarie Rued-Fraser.
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Living Fully as a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 Territory.
Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment, Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling for anyone in Alberta with no wait list and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com or counsellingalberta.com.
For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the US seek help from your general medical practitioner.