Season 2, Episode 4: Challenging Counselling Misconceptions
Although perceptions about counselling have evolved, there are still many myths about how counselling works and whether it helps or not. These misconceptions can be barriers for some people who could benefit from counselling.
On this Living Fully episode, social worker Sarah Rosenfeld walks us through some of the main misconceptions about counselling. She explains how counselling works, what to expect from counselling sessions, who can benefit from counselling, when is the best time to go to counselling and the time commitment needed to see changes. In this episode we also cover affordable fees, the stigma of mental health, and more.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully, a podcast dedicated to enhancing your mental well-being. Each episode explores valuable insights and practical strategies to help you lead a more fulfilling life. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig. In this episode I talked with Sarah Rosenfeld, associate director at Calgary Counselling Centre, about the myths, misconceptions, and frequently asked questions about counselling. We break through the stigmas and misconceptions that can hold people back from getting the help they need. Sarah talks about what to expect during your first counselling session. The work that's involved outside the counselling room doors, and the importance of the client-counselor relationship.
Katherine Hurtig
I am here today with Sarah Rosenfeld. Again, thank you so much for being on the show again. You're becoming quite the Living Fully regular.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Well, thanks. I enjoy being able to talk with you about these important topics. So I'm happy to be here.
Katherine Hurtig
Awesome. Thank you. And today we're going into counselling, misconceptions and frequently asked questions. So Sarah, as a bit of a refresher, can you tell our audience your role and your background?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, sure. So I am the associate director of counseling at the Calgary Counselling Centre, and I'm heavily involved in our teaching and training program for interns who are new people entering the field. And then residents who are looking to get a little bit more training and pursue their skills a little bit more to become registered Psychologists of Alberta.
Katherine Hurtig
And do you have counseling experience yourself?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yes. So I've been in different roles, but generally in the not-for-profit sector doing counselling and other types of counselling support services. So yeah, I'm pretty knowledgeable about how to serve people in the not-for-profit and really enjoy the work that I do at Calgary Counselling Centre because I get to work with clients directly, but also with new and emerging professionals.
Katherine Hurtig
Awesome. Yeah. And we'll get into it in a little bit too. But to start out, the idea of counselling and therapy, I think people have certain ideas about it. They have these assumptions. So we're going to kind of break those down to start. Can you explain what a typical first counselling session would be like? You know, what kinds of questions are asked? What can someone expect to happen in their first counselling session.
Sarah Rosenfeld
So it's a real opportunity to start off a new relationship essentially. So there are certain elements that go into that. And the key things are going to be about what your role is as the client and then what the role of the clinician is going to be and they're separate and distinct. The client is going to be there to engage, provide information, the counsellor’s gonna ask them some questions about what's brought them into counselling, why they access services now because there might have been a different point in time when they didn't access support and so it's helpful for the clinician to know what's so important about right now. Why are you seeking services right now and then getting some background information, some history, it'll depend a little bit on the therapist, and the approach they take, but generally it's information gathering and then also going through an informed consent process. That’s a very big part of the introductory pieces around counseling, so informing clients of their rights. Informing them of certain limits to counselling, like confidentiality limits.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. What are some of those? What's the first thing you mentioned before? Oh, yeah. Their rights.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah. So, right. What they have a right to. They have a right to be respected. They have a right to get responsive services. They have a right to request somebody else provide that service if it’s not a good fit for them. They have a right to access their file if that's something that they want. So there are certain things. Things around the counselling piece that clients need to know about.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure, I think right there that's something that a lot of people don't know or wouldn't think of like that. You know, as a client you can have your file if you wanted to.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah. So it's really about informing them of that and then talking about different roles and responsibilities. And then also, as I said earlier about the limits to the relationship. So in a counselling relationship, it's a confidential one. So confidentiality means you come to a therapist, you talk about things that are private to you that the therapist isn't going to share with other people except in certain instances where there are risk or safety concerns. Right. So making sure that clients are aware of what those limits to service provision are, it needs to be a conversation and a dialogue with clients. Yeah. And then the other thing that I would say in that first session is that clients are also trying to get an understanding of how this person works, and how they look at issues or concerns, and so there is a process, I think, for the client to be able to ask questions, seek clarification, and get a better understanding of maybe the clinician’s approach.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Like we'll get into that more, but you said at first that it's, you know, it's a relationship. So what are some questions that a potential client could ask their counsellor to kind of determine if this relationship would be a good fit and if this person would be able to kind of help them meet their goals, does that make sense?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Absolutely. What brought you into the field? How long have you been practicing? What types of training do you have? What are the things that keep you engaged in the work that you're doing? What's your philosophy of change when you're working with your clients? Because essentially there's a process right for the client also to determine if this is going to be a good fit for them.
Katherine Hurtig
Totally. Yeah, I know for myself. I mean, it's tough because it either requires a bit of research into the counselling process in general. Or having some experience. But after a few years of experience in counselling. When I went to look for someone new, I kind of knew some of the processes that I liked and benefited from and some that I didn't. So I knew to ask if that particular counsellor gave homework because I knew that that was so like that was going to be really important to be accountable and have something to work towards. But I mean, that's tough. Like if you're brand new to counselling, you wouldn't really know to ask that kind of question.
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think that's a really important thing that you're raising though because counselling is also about the person recognizing or having an appreciation that they're going to meet with their counsellor once a week, once every two weeks. And there's a lot of life that happens outside of that counselling appointment.
Katherine Hurtig
Completely. Yeah.
Sarah Rosenfeld
And so that process of integrating new information and making change happens mostly outside the counselling space, so they're really in an ideal situation. There should be things that you're working on between sessions, whether it's reading, whether it's tracking behaviours, whether it's going out and trying something new, those things are going to be really important to the effectiveness of the outcome of therapy.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, because, I mean, a counselling session. It's like it's one hour, once a week or once every couple of weeks. So there's definitely, like you said, a lot of life in between that. So just back to that first session, is there anything that someone should expect to prepare before that initial meeting with the counsellor?
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think going in and being aware of their mindset will be helpful. Are they feeling anxious or they're feeling apprehensive or are they feeling very excited about it and maybe being able to notice that at the very least, but perhaps even, if they feel that there's a connection where they're with the therapist, they're able to share a little bit about it. Because that's gonna really be helpful if you know the person is anxious. You might check in with that over the course of the therapy session and say, what are the things that would be helpful for you to know about me or this process that will help alleviate some of that anxiety? But if the clinician doesn't know those things it makes it a little bit harder to address them. Yeah. So being prepared
Katherine Hurtig
To be a bit vulnerable.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah. Yeah. And just be willing to be open to something new, especially if you haven't done it before, right? It's not always comfortable. But just because it's not comfortable doesn't mean it won't have benefit or value to you. So suspending belief a little bit and trusting that, Ok, maybe there are things that I don't know or haven't learned yet, but I'm willing to try.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, yeah. There's really got to be that openness and willingness to be a little uncomfortable for a bit.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, you're meeting somebody new. You're coming in and talking about things that are sensitive, private, and uncomfortable usually. Yeah. So just to also normalize that, they're going to be periods where it's going to be uncomfortable. And it might elicit some strong emotion, to just really normalize that for people.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. So I think there's this idea that with counseling you go in, you start therapy when there's a major issue and there's something really wrong going on like you're at the end of your rope. What are your thoughts on that? Is that, is that accurate? Is that what you think? Is that how it should go? Should people just go in when, when they're in crisis?
Sarah Rosenfeld
So I'd say there's probably some truth to what you're saying that people feel that they access the service when things are not going well and they're at their wit's end and they haven't been able to find solutions in other places. But I'd really like to plant the seed Katherine in today's conversation to let people know prevention is very, very effective. So when the issue is a little bit unmanageable that's probably the best time to reach out for help. Not when it's so unmanageable that you are having regular, ongoing panic attacks. Those are a little bit more extreme presentations. It's not to say that you won't be helped in that situation, but if you can come in and you're just noticing things. You know, they're simmering a little bit. It's kind of changing the whole idea of what counselling is. You don't have to be in crisis to access counselling. You don't necessarily go to your doctor all the time when everything's horrible, you go in for regular checkups and you do blood work, right? If we could help people appreciate that's kind of the way counselling would be helpful, too. You're kind of keeping a tab on your mental health and wellness. Not just when you're in crisis.
Katherine Hurtig
So I hear what you're saying, that it's better and probably easier if you come in when things aren't at a boiling point. But how would someone know? It might feel like overreacting, like if I'm just having, you know, a few bad days and I'm feeling really sad, should I pick up the phone and make a counselling appointment? What's that line where it's like, Ok now's the time that I should reach out.
Sarah Rosenfeld
If it's going on for a longer period of time and you're not able to readjust. So you've tried the normal things that you normally would do and they're not helping you. If other people are noticing that you're different or withdrawn, disengaged, or more worried. That might be a good time if you're just thinking that another set of perspectives or another idea might be helpful, there wouldn't be any harm in reaching out sooner, and then you can kind of decide, Ok, I did this session or I've done a couple, I feel Ok now for a while. I think I got what I needed. That's ok to do that too.
Katherine Hurtig
You talked about how you know you go to your doctor for regular checkups and that kind of makes me think of a period of time in my own counselling. I got to a point where I thought that like, you know, I had gone for a while and then, you know, after a few months, things kind of felt bad again. And I had this idea in my head that I had, like, failed counselling. But like, oh, that doesn't work for me. Like, there's something wrong with me. It didn't stick. But I'm now at a point where. It's like, no, it's just like those physical check ups. You can go in for these little, you know, counselling, refreshers. And I think that's a good idea too, because it's kind of like, I mean I'm at the point right now I've reached out to my own therapist. It's like I've pinpointed a couple of things that are going on in my life, they seem like they could be, you know, a bit unmanageable. I want to have a check-in to see, OK? Do I have the skills I need to handle the situation? What are your thoughts on that? About counselling refreshers?
Sarah Rosenfeld
I love that counselling refreshers. Counselling refreshers is a good way to put it, because you're just, maybe not doing 6 months or really prolonged pieces of work, but you're just sort of checking in, hearing your own voice, making sure you're on track, normalizing where you're at, or also recognizing. Yeah, this is actually where I need to hone my skills or focus a little bit more, and it's really hard to do that in your own head. It's really hard to do that in isolation. So I love that idea of counselling refreshers.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I didn't come up with the term. I heard that from someone else, but I really like that idea. Yeah. So we've talked a bit about what to expect in counselling and how to prepare for it. Can we talk a bit more about what clients may need to do outside the counselling time to achieve their goals? We did touch on how important that was. So what does that look like? I mean, I know it would vary greatly depending on the reason that someone's coming in. But yeah, can you give us a bit more details on what this homework might look like?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Sure. So I think it's about recognizing that you want to allot of certain times throughout the week to actually do some of the things that have been suggested or recommended. That could be looking at podcasts that could be reading about different resources that could be tracking your thoughts and noticing what your reactions are, but all of that's going to require time and energy. So it's important that you actually allocate and devote some time to that, that it's something that you prioritize. So I would say it's about recognizing that it's not just limited to the hour.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. And I like what you said earlier about trying something new. So I think that's huge. I think a lot of people who come into counselling, they're there because they want to change. In some respect, they want to change how they're feeling. They want to change a relationship. And yeah, trying something new, whether that be, you know, a different behaviour or a different way of thinking that's going to change the pathways of your brain. And that's going to lead to change, right?
Sarah Rosenfeld
It's about having a different experience, so often what happens when there's a problem is that you're replaying things that haven't worked well for you, it's an approach or a way of doing things that hasn't been effective, so it's not about doing more of the same. It's about thinking what could I do differently here? How could I approach this differently? What other new things could I bring into my awareness that will change what this looks like or how I experience it? Or how other people experience me? So it's really about, yeah, that willingness to try something new.
Katherine Hurtig
What could someone realistically expect in terms of, you know, a time commitment maybe, for this homework outside of counselling.
Sarah Rosenfeld
That's a really good question. And I would say it depends.
Katherine Hurtig
And maybe I'm thinking of it in way too much of a structured way, like a counselling session as a class. And you know, homework as in sitting down and writing. But that's not always the case.
Sarah Rosenfeld
No, it may not be it may be that you're going to make sure you have plans to connect with your kid and actually go do an activity together. Because you felt isolated in the distance, so you're not necessarily going to tackle the problem by talking about it. You're going to tackle the problem by, because you've been trying to talk and that's not working. So then let's try doing something different. Let's go do an activity together. Let's create new memories together that then might lead to things shifting in that relationship. So it's not always as you say, about the writing down. Yeah, it could be about a visualization exercise. It could be meditating between sessions. It could be reading as we talked about, but reading won't work everybody. Meditation won't work for everybody. And that's the job of the counsellor to figure out what's gonna fit best for this person.
Katherine Hurtig
And really, personalize the experience?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Exactly.
Katherine Hurtig
So I think much of the ways that we view counselling comes from the media and pop culture. We've seen lots of examples of therapy sessions, you know and TV shows and movies. And I think there are a lot of portrayals of counselling as rehashing your childhood or blaming your problems on your parents. Can we talk about that and what a more realistic counselling experience is like?
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think that's one way of maybe things having been approached and that might be a misrepresentation of what happens in the counselling space. Revisiting your past sometimes is really not going to be as helpful as thinking about what I want to do to move forward. What are the things that allow me to do that? What strategies can I adopt? Who do I need to talk to about this, and how do I need to go about doing something different? Yeah. And I think there's. An ebb and flow. Like definitely there might be things where a client will say, well, I think that's part of how I was raised or…
Katherine Hurtig
Right. There are going to be certain scenarios where it is important to talk about that stuff.
Sarah Rosenfeld
But not always. So I think it's about recognizing that it's been portrayed that way and that comes out of a certain particular way of being trained, right, a psychodynamic approach of going back through time. And exploring what's happened. And that's one way of approaching counselling, but there are lots of different ways of approaching counselling. Some are more present-oriented, some are more future-focused and I think it's being able to figure out what's going to be helpful for the person sitting in front of you and pulling on those resources to tailor it to that person's needs.
Katherine Hurtig
And that tailoring, how does the counsellor go about doing that? How do they decide what the best way to tackle a client's problem is? How do they assess what skills that person needs to develop?
Sarah Rosenfeld
They do it by talking to the client and figuring out where those pieces are lacking or where they have lots of strengths and resources, so it's a balancing of enhancing resources and then recognizing where there might be missing pieces. And that actually has to come directly from the client. So one of the things that I think the Calgary Counselling Centre does particularly well is there are not assumptions being made on the part of the clinician. The client provides direct feedback about how they're managing. If they're working towards their goals and objectives, and if that isn't happening, then there's a readjustment, a readjustment of the focus, a readjustment of the interventions, a readjustment of how the clinician is working with this particular person.
Katherine Hurtig
What does that feedback look like?
Sarah Rosenfeld
The feedback is really about the alliance between the clinician and the client. So alliance has a bunch of components to it, but essentially being an empathetic listener, being able to understand the person's perspective and what they're bringing, not based on how the clinician is interpreting that. But what the client actually needs, what their preferred ways of being seen in the world, are and if there's an ability to have respect in the therapeutic space. So those are kind of the alliance pieces. And then there's other pieces around, you know, are we talking about what we need to? Are we setting the goals that I want to set as a client? Are we on track? Is the stuff that we're doing in session working for me or do we need to adjust? So unless you're getting that feedback and tailoring it to the person you're working with, you might be off the mark.
Katherine Hurtig
Is that standard for counsellors and therapists, that process of feedback?
Sarah Rosenfeld
I would say I'd love for it to be, but I don't think it is standardized enough.
Katherine Hurtig
Is that kind of unique to the Calgary Counselling Centre?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yes, it is unique because we value ongoing regular feedback from clients because what the research will tell you is that clinicians are not the best judge of their effectiveness. Clients are the best judge of whether the service is fitting their and meeting their needs. So to make assumptions about that, there's going to be missing gaps and you're not going to see opportunities. So that's why it has to be a regular ongoing part of the counselling process.
Katherine Hurtig
A lot of people, especially those who've been dealing with an issue for a long time or feel overwhelmed with what they're going through, might think that counselling won't work for them. They may think, how is just talking to someone going to help? What makes talking to a professional counsellor different from just confiding in a friend?
Sarah Rosenfeld
That’s a great question Katherine and I think the key thing to remember when you get specific training as a counsellor you are getting training in how to attune to the client, how to pay attention to the client, how to figure out what goals would be helpful for the client. Empathy skills. Right? Of relating to the client. There is a lot of skill development that goes into being able to figure out how do I ask open-ended questions? How do I be more directive in how I wanna approach this? how do I maybe use a metaphor here to illustrate something that I want the client to understand but I’m not gonna do that in a direct way. Whereas a friend will not have all those clinical observations going on in the interaction that they’re having with you. They're just responding in the moment to what you’re saying. Whereas a clinician their job is to pay attention, listen, and figure out, ok, what's going to be most helpful for this person right now based on what I know about them, and how they learn, how they process information?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah and average person isn’t going to be aware of all those nuances.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Not at all. Talking to a friend is a reciprocal relationship. You know as much about that person as they know about you. When you come into counselling, it's a professional relationship and it needs to be that way to protect the client. You should not know as much about your therapist as they know about you. There needs to be boundaries around that relationship because there is actually a differential power dynamic.
Katherine Hurtig
OK, I've always, yeah, I've been curious about that. I definitely understand and respect that there are reasons behind that, but why can't a client get to know their counsellor on a more personal level?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Because it's about the client and it's about their needs. So if that would be important to the client, there are ways that the clinician can provide that in very, I would say strategic ways.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, because they could see there being situations where knowing someone a bit better would make a client feel more comfortable to be vulnerable.
Sarah Rosenfeld
But also you gotta be careful because if the client knows too much about the therapist, they might feel a sense of responsibility, or they're burdening the person with too many things and they're not gonna come to therapy and really be present and do the things they need to cause they'll be trying to protect their therapist. So that's why that professional boundary piece is so important.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, it makes sense.
Sarah Rosenfeld
It can really lead to some unhealthy dynamics in the therapeutic space because really the focus needs to be on the client. That's why they're there, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Can you elaborate on any kind of unique techniques that trained counsellors use to help people?
Sarah Rosenfeld
So it’s going to really vary from counsellor to counsellor but they may use cognitive behaviour therapy approaches which are figuring out what the thoughts, what are the behaviours, what are the motions going into how a person responds to any given situation. They could be using other strategies so solution focused strategies where they’re trying to work on something specific and work on some goals and objectives about how you get there, and again the type of questioning that you’re going to be asking will vary based on how you think that person needs to hear the information. There are many techniques and many strategies that counsellors are actually trying to filter through in a counselling session to determine what’s gonna be best in this particular scenario it’s almost like they have a Rolodex of techniques and they’re trying to figure out in this situation based on what I know about this person what’s gonna be most useful right now. So a friend won’t be doing any of those things, right?
Katherine Hurtig
You know a friend is going to totally 100% take my side, and be defending me, and giving me tips on how to feel better. But a counsellor is going to look at it from a very unbiased side.
Sarah Rosenfeld
yeah, and it’s going to be about providing options for perspectives. So how do we increase the ability for somebody to look at the situation differently? Because part of why they’re coming is if they view it a certain way and they’re attached the way they view that. And so a counsellor's role that’s where the training comes in. How do I help them increase the number of ways they can look at this situation in a different way, where maybe they’re not the centre of it. So there’s a bunch of things happening for them, what are the pieces that might be about them but what’s happening within the system or the environments that actually isn’t about what they’re doing or not doing. And a friend isn’t going to be able to maybe have that multi layered way of looking at the problem.
Katherine Hurtig
How does a counsellor's understanding of human behaviour enhance the counselling process?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Well it’s kind of a bedrock to what we get training in. How do people behave? How do people make decisions when they have difficulty with authority? How do they respond? What happens in systems like in families? What are the dynamics? So your training is focused a lot on those elements of what happened so that you have a multiple number of things that you can pull on when you’re interacting with somebody. Because essentially it is that. It’s about social interaction. It’s about understanding people and how they work. It’s about decision-making. It’s about responsibility. So you have to know enough about human behavior to be able to pull from those things when you’re working with a client.
Katherine Hurtig
That sounds, in the moment your brain would be so busy and kind of listening to that, listening to the client but also analyzing like, ok, well what’s the best way to handle what they are saying.
Sarah Rosenfeld
So if you think about it it’s almost like air traffic control. There’s airplanes coming in and out so if you think about that, right? The client is giving you stuff coming in and out and you have to figure out how I’m going to direct traffic so that I get the flight out and it’s on the path it needs to go and it’s got some direction.
Katherine Hurtig
How do counsellors keep pace with new developments in the industry, in their practice, to come to maintain their expertise to better serve clients.
Sarah Rosenfeld
So a big part of what we do is to be getting regular ongoing training from reputable sources. So there’s a lot of training out there but your job as a counsellor is to try to know where am I going to get information that’s helpful, evidence-based, that there’s been actually substantial research that’s credible done, and those are the sources he want to be going to because there’s a lot of people out there that will tell they can tell you about this new development but it actually might not not be founded in something factual, or where there’s actually been a number of studies that can give you information about the validity of a new technique or a new approach or a new way of working. You’re always trying to get that information and get it from credible places and have ongoing training.
Katherine Hurtig
How do you discern if a source is credible or if information is accurate?
Sarah Rosenfeld
So you have to use your critical thinking skills, essentially. You gotta see, right, is this something that is coming from a university where you know it’s been vetted properly. If a research study has been done it will have to go through an ethics process. So you wanna look at where it where is the publication coming from, and there’s certain sources that are more reliable so university or a place that you’ve never heard of I’m not saying it’s not useful, but how credible is that source.
Katherine Hurtig
You just got to do a little bit of digging?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah! It’s almost like being a student all the time. Where is the source of information? Who is giving it? What have my peers said about this who I trust and respect? What is the industry saying about this? And then gauge based on that how much you’re going to take that information to heart and how much might not be useful?
Katherine Hurtig
Right. How can the structure of the discussion in the counselling room and the different nature of a relationship with the counsellor, how does that impact how someone's challenges are approached?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Well if you think about what counselling is. It's really about creating a scenario, an environment where questions are being asked in ways that they've never been considered before. That's really the role of a clinician is to be able to figure out how to ask the question? Which ways to ask the question? When to do it in session? When not to do it in session? So when you think about a friendship, there's a much more even flow back and forth. There isn't that mindset. Yeah, the pacing and timing of how questions are asked, the type of questions that are asked, whether they're direct or indirect questions, whether there are other ways of providing information like is the client gonna respond really well to a metaphor or an analogy? Or relate it to something that matters to them. I recently had somebody share that they're really a lover of real-life survival stories. That's important that I know that because I can interweave that into the therapy because it matters to them. It's a preference for them. It's a way that they integrate information. So that's really important for clinicians. All of those pieces go into creating the environment in the therapeutic space where those things are always being considered.
Katherine Hurtig
Correct me if I'm wrong, but so my kind of, well, my experience and understanding of counselling is like it's less of just you know a conversation or a time to vent but it's about or should be about setting goals and working towards them. Am I right?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, there's, I think, real value in being able to figure out if I'm doing this and I'm not getting the result I want. What do I need to be doing differently? What pieces of information or learning have I missed and how do I start to develop new skills, new expertise? I think there can be a risk sometimes people come in and they do want to vent and maybe that has a bit of a role, but I wouldn't say that should be the sole purpose of counselling. Yeah, I think there's a danger when it gets to that point because then what are you learning? How are you going to do things differently? What's going to look different for you?
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, there isn't really a change.
Sarah Rosenfeld
And it sounds when you talk about venting that you're really in the process of ruminating. Ruminating is that thing where you're thinking and thinking and thinking, and it feels really active. But at the end of the day, it hasn't led to anything different. There's no problem-solving. There's no resolution, there's no, oh, I've learned this, and now I'm going to take these steps next time.
Katherine Hurtig
The right fit or feeling comfortable with your counsellor is really important. I can think of experiences that I've had where I've had a couple of sessions with the counsellor and I'm like this is not working. I'm not getting along with this person and it's just like it's not a good fit and you know, I think some people may have had a negative experience in counselling or have tried it but didn't feel comfortable with their counsellor. So can we talk a bit more about that fit and why it's so important? And some of the things that clients can do to find counsellor that's right for them.
Sarah Rosenfeld
You have a right to feel that the person that's offering help to you really understands you, and what you're coming to counselling for. And if you're not getting that from somebody, it's Ok to say I'm not sure this is going to give me what I need because. The process is a vulnerable one, and if you don't think the person really understands how you learn, what your preferences are, how you make change in your life, it's going to be really hard for you to trust that this can be helpful and useful for you. So I think it's about being able to … Is this somebody who's open and non-judgmental? Curious about me and my situation. Engaged in what I have to say. I think people know when that fit is there. It's just that sometimes they dismiss it or they say this is about me. And it could just be about the connection between you and your therapist. And so instead of saying this whole process doesn't work, go and try somebody else.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Yeah, I think that's where a lot of people run into issues you know they try counselling once, that fits not there, and then it's just kind of this overarching thought that counselling won't work for them, period. When there are so many other people that… I compare it to like you're not going to be best friends with everybody in the world. So why would you know you have an amazing relationship with every counsellor, right? I mean, it's tricky because you do have to, you have to go through that process of finding someone and trying them out. But yeah. But when you do the fit is there. It can be really helpful.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, it's that trust piece that then allows you to trust what the recommendations are, and what the homework looks like. So really, I'm just hoping people hear that if it doesn't work, give it another shot. And be willing to try it again.
Katherine Hurtig
If someone's struggling with, you know, depression, anxiety or some other mental health concern and they decide they wanna you know get help for that. Generally speaking, what kind of time commitment are they looking at? Is this years that they're gonna need to come in? Is this a lifetime commitment kind of thing?
Sarah Rosenfeld
I think looking at counselling, the way you talked about it in our earlier conversation as sort of a tune-up sometimes so it could be, I wouldn't say that it's going to be a 10-year commitment, but over the course of 10 years, you might access support multiple times.
Katherine Hurtig
OK. What do we see at Calgary Counselling Centre like, you know, how long are clients here? How long does it take for them to feel better or to see the changes they're looking for?
Sarah Rosenfeld
So generally our research and our statistics support the people who come into counselling are seeing a positive gain and improvement in their functioning, a reduction in their symptom distress in about 8 to 10 sessions.
Katherine Hurtig
That seems reasonable.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah. Yeah. So if you think every two weeks 8 to 10, how many months is that? That's four, yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Had to do the math there.
Sarah Rosenfeld
So it's not ten years, it's not six years. It's not.
Katherine Hurtig
And I think, yeah, someone hearing that that's going to be really hopeful. Like things can change. In a shorter amount of time.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, you'd love to have a pocket of support and a therapist can be that for you and somebody that you access when and if you need them. So to think that that person would be there indefinitely and always. I don't know if that would be required in every single instance. And might actually create a dynamic where there's less of a focus on what I can do for myself? How can I take this learning and make sure that I am applying this in my life? It might create a false sense of dependency or a need that I can't do this on my own and I think really the goal and objective should be to empower people to take steps on their own.
Katherine Hurtig
So, Sarah, I checked out the other day. I checked out the recommended fee schedule for the Psychologists Association of Alberta and it says that the recommended fee for individual counselling is $220 per session. Is that what people can expect to pay at Calgary Counselling Centre?
Sarah Rosenfeld
This is, I think, a really important thing to convey to people in the community that we operate on a sliding fee schedule. What that means for people receiving services is that, yes, at the top end, our services would be $200. But we also serve people that don't pay that and we work with them to make sure that the fee-for-service rate is something that can be affordable for them, given their other financial responsibilities and obligations. So it's a negotiation and it's a discussion and it can be revisited multiple times in therapy. That would not be the case for most other places that you go to. So if it's $220, it's $220 and then you have to allocate and budget. For that fee for service rate. The way we work is a little bit different and I think it's a different philosophy. The philosophy that the one that everybody, regardless of their socioeconomic status, should have the ability to access counselling services.
Katherine Hurtig
Of course. Yeah. I think that's huge because, like you, we were saying in the last question about, you know, a time commitment. You know, if I'm looking at 10 sessions to deal with my problem, at $200 a session. Just thinking about that alone can be stressful like that, that financial commitment. So yeah, I think it's huge. Especially now with inflation and the high cost of living, yeah, that's really hard for people. So it's important that people can access help without financial burden.
Sarah Rosenfeld
I agree.
Katherine Hurtig
So one thing that people might not know is that at Calgary Counselling Centre, we have student counsellors. So like you said, we train social workers and psychologists in the counseling field. Sarah, can you talk about the difference between the counselling experience with the student and a more experienced counsellor?
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, I think this might be an important thing to highlight because there might be a myth that people who are more junior are less effective or less able to help, and I would say that our data does not support that.
Katherine Hurtig
OK, what does it say?
Sarah Rosenfeld
It says that actually if you work with somebody that's new. In training, they actually have a different mindset. They're being curious about things. They're leaning into things, and you actually might get a better, more engaging process with the student. And we're seeing from our data that those clients are getting really good results and are really being helped by students. And I've heard from clients that have worked with students that they're able to really help, provide skills and they're incredibly engaged in working with their clients. I'd really like for people to hear that. It's not that you're gonna get less of a service.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. Yeah. So same if not better results than an experienced counsellor, you're saying.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Yeah, because when you think about it, people that move into that are starting something, everything's new for them. So they're really curious. They're really engaged. They're trying to understand things, counselling like anything, can become something, although it never should be. Something that becomes automatic. And for people that have done things more it is incumbent upon them to continue to learn and engage and lean in and be curious, but we don't always have a guarantee that with more experience comes better skills. That's not necessarily the case and sometimes isn't the case.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. And so, Sarah, one last question that I want to get to before our time is up is this idea of having a mental health issue is a sign of weakness. What are your thoughts on this?
Sarah Rosenfeld
That I don't think that's true at all. I don't think it is a sign of weakness. I think we all need help and if we could change our ideas about really what it takes to be a healthy person. It's about a lot of different things. It's about natural support. It's about professional support in terms of accessing therapy, and getting that kind of professional help. It's about having lots of different things in and around you. To help maintain that balance, because let's face it, economic stressors downturn in the economy, COVID, illness. Those things affect our resilience, and we're all going to need at some point to access support. And the more that we can normalize that, that doesn't mean we're not doing enough. I think we all benefit from that. I think we have to change that whole idea.
Katherine Hurtig
That doesn't mean you're any less of a person. Thank you so much for talking about all these things with me. I hope we can change some minds and give people a better idea of what it's like to get counselling.
Sarah Rosenfeld
Me too. Thanks for the conversation.
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to Living Fully. Thanks for tuning in. This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, Jenna Forbes, and me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Sarah Rosenfeld.
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Living Fully is a production of the Calgary Counselling Centre and was recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment, Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling for anyone in Alberta with no wait list and no financial barriers. Find us online at calgarycounselling.com or counsellingalberta.com.
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