Season 1, Episode 5: How to Have Difficult Conversations
Communication is key to healthy relationships with everyone in our lives. But conflict and disagreements are an inevitable part of interacting with others.
On this episode of Living Fully, we talk to Stefan de Villiers, registered social worker, about how to have difficult conversations. Whether it’s a conversation with a co-worker we don’t get along with, or an argument with our partner, these kinds of conversations can be really uncomfortable. Stefan talks about the reasons why we find these conversations difficult and some ways to effectively navigate these tougher discussions.
Watch the original Facebook Live discussion in this episode.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast.
Each episode, we’ll bring you insights from our expert counsellors and tips and strategies to improve your mental well-being. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
Calgary Counselling Centre and Counselling Alberta provide effective counselling for anyone in Alberta with no wait list and no financial barriers.
Find us online at calgarycounselling.com or counsellingalberta.com.
In this episode, I've asked Stefan De Villiers, registered social worker, to talk about how we can have difficult conversations. Whether it's a conversation with a coworker we don't get along with, or an argument with our partner, these kinds of conversations can be really uncomfortable. Stefan talks about the reasons we find these conversations difficult and some ways to effectively navigate these tougher discussions. This interview took place on May 25th, 2022.
Katherine Hurtig
Can you start by telling us just a bit about yourself and your background?
Stefan de Villiers
Yeah, I'm a clinical counsellor at Calgary Counselling Centre. I've been with the agency since 2019. I also coordinate a program for male victims of domestic abuse, and I do quite a bit of work with couples as well.
Katherine Hurtig
Excellent. Stefan, let's get really simple about it. Why do arguments happen?
What are some of the reasons behind the negative or uncomfortable feelings we get around difficult conversations?
Stefan de Villiers
Yeah, I mean, if you're, you know, if you're thinking about what humans tend to do, we love to make stories, right. We tell ourselves stories of what's happening and make sense of our own experiences and for the most part that can serve us really well. But you know, when we are dealing with difficult topics or things, we have a story that's different from that other person's story, that's where conflict can kind of come up. You know, who's right and who’s wrong? If you're starting to get into that kind of mind state, you're kind of setting yourself up for a world of trouble. So I think one of the main reasons why we tend to get into conflicts is that we assume that other people see the world the way that we do and that they're choosing to act in a way that doesn't make sense. And so then we don't know why they're doing that and then because we don't know then we try to fill in those gaps and make a lot of assumptions and sort of explanations around that. But a lot of times those assumptions, they're not actually based in reality or based in fact, they're kind of tapping into that storytelling mechanism of our brains.
Katherine Hurtig
Stefan, when we go into these conversations, both parties, we have a goal in mind, or kind of what we want to get out of it. What is the idea of intention play? like what role does that play in...
Stefan de Villiers
Yeah, I think I get what you're asking you. The question of, yeah, we go into a conversation with the goal of wanting to solve the problem and then, you know, we have an idea of what that will take to solve that issue, right? And we also make assumptions around what the other person is intending you know, so if, a simple example, let's say your partner leaves the dishes next to the sink, you know, that can be super annoying, right? So you're going into that conversation already, kind of pissed off, frustrated, angry, and you're assuming, you know, if we're talking about storytelling, you're assuming that that partner did that on purpose to hurt you or to kind of, you know, annoy you, or to send you some sort of message. And that might be true. I mean, there are cases where that is actually happening. But we often make those assumptions without a lot of evidence that that is what's going on, right. And so a part of engaging in a more productive or constructive conversation is to kind of test out those assumptions. And first of all, you have to be able to recognize that it is an assumption for yourself before you go into that conversation, not just kind of saying that this is what's happening. So it takes an ability to kind of slow yourself down a little bit and say, “OK, what is actually happening here?” The reality is the dishes are next to the sink and that's the facts. Anything outside of that is interpretation, is story. And so let's try and engage in this in a more constructive way, where we're able to identify what's the facts, what are the stories and what are the intentions, right? Not just assuming them off the bat.
Katherine Hurtig
And potentially looking at it like, what are other possibilities. Like if you go in and you assume that something is the case, that someone did this action out of, like you said, if they were trying to annoy you. Thinking about what could be a different possibility. Is that something that can help?
Stefan de Villiers
Yeah, definitely. One way of thinking of it is giving your partner the benefit of the doubt. Also, I think when you're going in with more of an open stance into the conversation, it sort of allows that other person to feel like they're not being attacked because that's the other piece of difficult conversations iss that, OK, so we have the facts, we have, the stories and the assumptions, and then we're going into it, acting as if those assumptions are true, and then if you're on the receiving end - let's say I'm the one that left the dishes next to the sink, and my wife is coming at me - I might get defensive, right? I might feel like, uh oh, like I'm being attacked. I might then kind of shut down. You can even sort of notice it sometimes people's body language will kind of curl in or they'll get aggressive, like fight or flight response.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Stefan de Villiers
And if you're in that mode, it's really hard to have a productive, constructive, generative conversation with that other person, because you're both sort of trapped in your own narratives at that point.
Katherine Hurtig
Right, so speaking of feeling attacked, how can we approach these difficult conversations so that everyone involved feels safe and comfortable enough to express themselves?
Stefan de Villiers
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that word of safety that you just mentioned there is so, so important. How do you create an environment where there's room to work through a problem collaboratively rather than engaging in a power struggle? One thing that you can do is take a moment beforehand and identify for yourself like, “how am I seeing this situation? What is the story I'm telling myself?” What can be helpful sometimes is to take that other person's perspective for a moment. Right. So to kind of imagine if you were that other person, how are they seeing the problem? How would they frame it for themselves, and what sort of assumptions might be underlying their perspective, right? And just by doing that already, you're sort of stepping out of your story and opening up more space for other possibilities.
I think the other really important thing in having difficult conversations is really going in with an intent to listen before feeling like you need to be listened to. So if you're going in kind of guns a blazing, wanting to be heard and have your voice heard, sure, you'll have that moment, but in the long run it doesn't really create a space where that other person is going to feel safe opening up about how they're feeling or what they're going through. I think a more useful approach would be to go into that conversation seeking to understand first. And I think that to kind of nuance that conversation a little bit, I think it also depends on your personality, because some people, I mean, I'm just thinking about myself, I'm not a super aggressive person, so I tend to always seek to understand first. But, for me, the work might be to actually be more assertive in expressing how I see things, because that's not my natural inclination. Whereas for another person, they're natural inclination is to just see how they see things and not really come from a place of curiosity for what the other person might be seeing. So I think there is some nuance there around knowing your own patterns in relationships, and then recognizing if you indulge that pattern, is that going to get you where you want to go, or is that going to actually limit.
Katherine Hurtig
Right. And for these conversations to be effective, it's got to be a give and take, right? You want to be able to express yourself, but you have to be able to hear what the other person needs as well.
Stefan de Villiers
Yeah, and you know that's a really good point.
Katherine Hurtig
It can be really easy to make assumptions about another person's intentions or feelings, especially if we feel hurt or wronged in some way.
Two people may be in the same situation, but they might. Be experiencing it differently and it's important to understand and validate each person's experience.
Stefan de Villiers
Yeah, and you know that's a really good point. I think what often happens is that we get into a bit of a push pull power struggle, it's my way or the highway. It's I'm right and you're wrong. And whenever you're in that mode, that's not going to create a lot of room for safety.
One way of thinking about it is how you go into these types of difficult conversations matters, right? So if you're coming from a place of "yes, and...” as opposed to “yes, but...” it's a very different experience. So if you're going into conversations defensively, “yes, but this is why I did that...” justifying why you did whatever it is that you did, then you're already kind of in a losing situation as opposed to going into that conversation from, “yes, I hear you. Yes, I validate your experience. Yes, I could see how that might come across that way. And, here is how I'm seeing it,” so that that it's a both AND, as opposed to a right or wrong. I think we often think that there's only one truth. And rarely are conflicts about truths. I think we think they are, but often they're not. They're about emotions and they're about values. They're about what we prioritize. For one person, dishes next to the sink might not be a big deal. For another person, that could be a gesture of disrespect. Both of those things can be true at the same time.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah. Tell us a bit about how we can keep ourselves in check and make sure that we're not going into these conversations holding on to assumptions.
Stefan de Villiers
I mean the first point is really to recognize the assumptions. So we talked a bit about that earlier, really separating out the actions, the words, the whatever the situation is, from the story that's associated with it. And once you've done that, then you're kind of already well on your way. And then it becomes about knowing when I'm being activated, how can I self soothe too. Because if you're going into that conversation and you're like, “OK, yeah, I've got them separated out. I'm all good, I'm calm and I'm ready for this,” and that other person says something and it just it hits a tender spot or it hits the place that feels familiar and not in a good way, our guard can come up and we can get all worked up again really quickly. And we can kind of get drawn into sort of mistaking our assumptions for what's actually happening, and so I think it is really important when we're having these difficult conversations to be really self-aware about what our emotional state is, how are we doing in that moment?
It's OK to say to that other person, “you know what? I need to take a step back, I need a time out.” You can even have a code word that you can share with each other where you're just like, “OK, time out. Let's take a 10, 20 minute break. I'm going to go walk around the block I do want to address this with you and work through it, but I'm not ready to do that right now.” So taking ownership for your own feelings, your own emotional responses and practicing some self-soothing. It can even be helpful to have a contract with your partner around that so that they can sort of know when you're getting into that unhelpful state so that they know, “OK, this isn't productive anymore.”
Sorry, I think I interrupted you.
Katherine Hurtig
That’s okay. Stephen, do you have any examples of what self-soothing might look like?
Stefan de Villiers
Yeah, So just because I’ve used the example of the dishes. So let's say my wife comes to me and she's like, “I just noticed the dishes are next to the sink again,” and I'm noticing that she's upset about that, and I might feel defensive in that moment where I'm like, “oh, I can't believe I did that.” So I might go to a place of shame.
Like “I'm a horrible person.” And then I'm feeling attacked by her, and all of this is sort of overwhelming. Maybe I had a stressful day at work and I didn't have a good sleep the night before, so there's a lot of contributors going on at the same time and being able to recognize that for myself. So I might then say to my wife, “you know what? I'm noticing that I'm kind of upset right now and I know that we need to talk about this issue because it is a recurring issue, and I know that it really upsets you. And I'm also not in a place right now where I can have that conversation. So can we reschedule this an hour from now? I'm just going to go take the dog for a walk.” I think just being able to kind of know your own needs of what you need in that moment. For me, it's going out, getting some activity, moving my body. That might be something that will help me calm down.
For other people that might be calling a friend, venting to them, working out their thought processes before engaging in the conversation. Other people, they might benefit more from doing things like journaling Getting all the words on the page and their frustrations and their feelings, all of these assumptions. The act of putting the words on the paper can help to separate out what is the story I'm telling myself from what's really going on? It's going to look different for everybody, but it's really about knowing yourself and being aware of what works for you.
Katherine Hurtig
I think a lot of us have heard that to have effective or constructive arguments or conversations you want to start with “I feel” statements instead of anything accusatory. Two things - why is that important, and do you have any other suggestions of how to make sure that you are heard, you get your point across in a conversation without the other person getting defensive.
Stefan de Villiers
Yeah, that's very common. I think in couples therapy or therapy in general, where people will say using “I” language instead of “you” language can really change the dynamic. And it makes sense, if you think about it. If you're coming to somebody and you're saying, “you did that thing and that thing really annoyed me,” immediately on the receiving end of that, that seems pretty aggressive, right? I don't know how you feel about that. But if somebody says, “you crashed my car,” my heartbeat's going to start going faster because that feels like that feels like an attack, a personal attack. So switching to “I” language just takes a little bit of that sting out of that interaction where you're saying, “I noticed that my car has a dent and I'm feeling pretty frustrated about that. I'm wondering if you know anything about it.” There you're describing the same facts. It's the same situation, but you are leaving the door open for multiple possibilities. It may be that I did bump into your car and damage it. And I may, confess that to you in that interaction and then we'll have to proceed with how to fix that or how to move forward. But by using that “I” language, you're creating a space where it feels OK or feels that you're open to hearing my side of the story, you’re not just assuming that I dented your car on purpose with the intention of hurting you or causing you misery, which you know is probably not what happened. So it's giving…
Katherine Hurtig
A lot more of a gentle approach.
Stefan de Villiers
Yeah, it's sort of a soft start to the conversation where you're giving that other person the benefit of the doubt, and you're engaging in that conversation in good faith.
Katherine Hurtig
We talked a lot about difficult conversations couples may have between them, but these techniques are applicable to lots of scenarios, with family members, friends, coworkers, and even acquaintances.
Stefan de Villiers
I think in any relationship there are going to be friction points, and I think the patterns that we engage with other people, those patterns, we all have kind of a blueprint is the way I think of it. The way that we grew up, how we related to our parents, or how we related to our siblings, how we related to our peers, that blueprint kind of goes with us through our life and any interaction, whether it's a partner or coworker or stranger, where something gets sort of activated that reminds us of one of those earlier experiences, we might find ourselves responding and in similar ways because it's kind of like the past, is leaking into the present. And so a lot of these techniques that I'm talking about here, they can work with any relationship. Often the difficult relationships to navigate are interpersonal, romantic or partnerships because those are the relationships that remind us the most of those earliest experiences that we've had in family. But yeah, these skills are transferable to any kind of relationship that we're engaged in.
Katherine Hurtig
So Stefan, if I know that I've got a hard conversation coming up, what are some ways that I can prepare for it to be successful?
Stefan de Villiers
I mean, there's a lot of things you can do, and I think it really starts with thinking about yourself before you even go into that conversation is doing some prep work with yourself. So thinking about ways that you can settle yourself and not get too pulled into the drama right off the bat. So if you need to take some time to journal out your thoughts and what you're feeling and how you how you interpret things, then taking that time to do that, and then also taking that time to think about, “OK, well, if I were to step in that other person’s shoes, how would they be seeing this?” Because that gives you some information that you can then address when you're approaching that person to get those assumptions out of the way. And that might actually help diffuse, if they're worked up, that might diffuse them. so really starting from that internal place of, “OK, I'm going into the situation. I want to be calm. I want to be in a place where I'm taking ownership of my own inner landscape and then asking yourself some hard questions.
One question that can be helpful is to think about “Is this an issue that is worth talking about? Am I fueling the flames here, or am I going to actually get some sort of resolution by engaging in this conversation?” Also, is this a recurring issue or is this something that's just a one off? So if it's a one off, maybe you'll talk about it at some point, but do you need to talk about it right now, when you know that you're activated or triggered by it. I think getting clear about your own intentions going into that conversation – is this about you having revenge or asserting your dominance? Or is this really about wanting to work through this problem and collaborate and come up with a better way forward? So I would say that's the first step.
And then I think also, what we talked about earlier around seeking to understand - going into that conversation from a place of curiosity and from a place of non-judgment if you can. And leaving that door open for multiple possibilities, multiple interpretations, multiple stories, and not just jumping to conclusions - testing out some of those assumptions that you Identified before. I also think it is important for you to own your perspective and not deny your own feeling because that is the other tendency. I know that in myself that sometimes, I'll put the other person's needs in front of my own but that also backfires after a while because then you have a lot of resentment. It’s like, “well, I have these needs and these aren't getting addressed, but at least they get what they want, right?” That can build up over time and that doesn't work either. So it's really about full respect conversation - respect for that other person but also respect for where you're coming from as well. I think rather than focusing just on the past, really thinking about how this can be different in the future. So for example, coming back to that conversation around the dishes, we could have a conversation about why I didn't do the dishes last time, or we could have a conversation around, “well, at the end of my work day and I'm pretty tired. I don't have a lot of energy. Maybe it doesn't make sense for me to do the dishes then. Can we then agree that the dishes will get done in the morning?” Or maybe my wife does the dishes in the evening and I do the dishes in the day, or whatever. Then you can start to kind of collaborate around a solution that works for both of you and that is respectful of both of your needs. So those are some general thoughts around that.
Katherine Hurtig
What do you think about - if I go into a conversation, I'm doing all these things right, I'm checking that I'm not holding on to the idea of intentions, I'm getting away from the assumptions I'm making, I'm validating the other person's feelings - I'm checking off all these boxes but not getting the same kind of response back. The other persons being accusatory and they're not validating, they're not seeking to understand - how do we kind of come to terms with the fact that these conversations aren't always going to be successful and turn out the way that we want?
Stefan de Villiers
Well, that's the thing about relationships, right? There's more than one person involved and we only have control over our part of it. So then we have some decisions to make. Maybe this person isn't in a place where they can engage on that level with me, and that's fair. Again, it's not right or wrong, it just simply is. But then we have to decide is this a relationship that I want to continue? Is this a relationship that is serving me or even serving them. You know then then we have to decide what makes the most sense moving forward. Is this something that I'm willing to kind of put up with because I get enough benefits in other ways from this relationship, or is this something where the resentment is building up over time and I don't see this resolving. That's good information to have, because then you can decide, “OK I'm setting a boundary here that this doesn't work for me anymore.”
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you so much, Stephen. I think it's such an important thing to talk about how to have these talks because we run into that all the time in our lives.
Stefan de Villiers
And it's hard, it's a really hard thing and it takes practice. It's an imperfection project. We're always getting better at it the more we do it.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. You've given us a lot of great advice to start putting that practice into action.
Stefan de Villiers
Well, thank you.
Katherine Hurtig
Thank you so much for being here today.
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in.
This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Stefan de Villiers.
The conversation within this podcast was live streamed on Calgary Counselling Centre’s Facebook page.
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Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory. Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. If you're in Alberta and need help please go to calgarycounselling.com or counsellingalberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the US, seek help from your General Medical Practitioner.
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